Injuries in Dallas - Should Woicik Go?

[AbeBeta]

For example - in 2010, under Mike Woicik's program, Patriots players listed as "Questionable" played with that injury designation on the report only 32.56% of the time (86 iterations reported, 28 times played). By contrast, the Cowboys, under Joe J, played 40/58 times for a rate of 68.97%.

In 2012, after a full year under Woicik, the Cowboys players only played when "Questionable" 51.96% of the time (53/102). New England? 71.37%, or 172 out of 241. As @CowboyMike pointed out, sure - perhaps Belichick was reporting more guys as Questionable to thumb his nose at the league (which I acknowledge in the OP, if anybody read it); still, when you're comparing Woicik against Woicik, the numbers are similar -- fewer guys recover and are available for a game to play under Woicik than not under Woicik, regardless of the overall numbers of the injury reports over an entire season.

As I said, I believe it is a testament to the staff. Under different guidance, despite players being listed as "Questionable" or "Probable" (which, by the way, aren't "how injured" they are, but simply speak to their practice participation), players were able to go through rehab in practice and then play on Sundays more often under a different S&C staff than under Woicik's watch.

He might have been a pro in 1992, but I am concerned that the staff's methods are outdated for what is a new and different kind of professional athlete now, nearly 30 years later. Why do people acknowledge different eras when comparing position players, but refuse to do the same thing when it comes to something that has changed radically in the last 25 years like strength training and conditioning?

In 2010 the Cowboys were near the bottom of the league in starter games lost to injury. 5th lowest in the league.

That happened under Joe J. It was worse the next year under Woicik.

You can look at that and attribute it to the trainers. However what we have is one year where we were substantially below average. Under a completely random process we would expect to come back toward the league average the next year - a concept termed regression to the mean. A common failure in amateur statistical analysis is to attribute random processes to events that happened at the same time. Often that is done when someone goes in with a specific expectation. The data look like you want them to but could just as easily suggest random fluctuations and other processes (e.g. difference in reporting)

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

Because Mike Woicik is still employed, and because we have heard nothing of a new training program from the coaching staff, players, or front office, I am going to assume that no, it was not addressed to the extent that is probably necessary to fix the problem.

Wasnt there talk out there about the implementation of yoga and different training to improve the soft tissue problems? I think it was reported/revealed in something having to do with Romo's back, but it wasnt just Romo, it was for the whole team.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

But the ballet bars, man. The ballet bars.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

I don't know. The data you compiled is very good information.

I don't know if it's the trainer or more to do with the new CBA rules. I have no idea.

The only thing I know for sure is Michael Irvin swore by this guy. Of course that's forever ago but I doubt this guy suddenly forgot how to strength and condition train.

*Shrugs* I have no idea really. The bigger, faster, stronger athletes might just not respond as well to the older style of work that he's likely been using for 20+ years now.

 

[casmith07]

I don't know. The data you compiled is very good information.

I don't know if it's the trainer or more to do with the new CBA rules. I have no idea.

The only thing I know for sure is Michael Irvin swore by this guy. Of course that's forever ago but I doubt this guy suddenly forgot how to strength and condition train.

*Shrugs* I have no idea really. The bigger, faster, stronger athletes might just not respond as well to the older style of work that he's likely been using for 20+ years now.

I'm not saying it's proof positive, like some of these folks seem to want to attach to my thread. All I'm saying is that it's something that makes you go "hmm..."

And your last sentence is my main point. Michael Irvin in 1993 is not the same athlete as Dez Bryant in 2014. Nutrition isn't the same. Players are bigger, faster, stronger. You never would've had defensive tackles running in the 4's on their 40-yard dash unless his name was John Randle, for example.

Hopefully we'll figure it out, whatever it is, but I think that shaking up the training/S&C staff would be a step in the right direction.

And he might not have forgotten how to train - but it's also not 1993 anymore.

 

[burmafrd]

I'm not saying it's proof positive, like some of these folks seem to want to attach to my thread. All I'm saying is that it's something that makes you go "hmm..."

And your last sentence is my main point. Michael Irvin in 1993 is not the same athlete as Dez Bryant in 2014. Nutrition isn't the same. Players are bigger, faster, stronger. You never would've had defensive tackles running in the 4's on their 40-yard dash unless his name was John Randle, for example.

Hopefully we'll figure it out, whatever it is, but I think that shaking up the training/S&C staff would be a step in the right direction.

And he might not have forgotten how to train - but it's also not 1993 anymore.

yeah, he might figure that it worked for 30 years for him why change?

 

[casmith07]

yeah, he might figure that it worked for 30 years for him why change?

Dinosaur thinking.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Fooled by randomness.

 

[casmith07]

Deeper digging into the injury reports has turned up quite a few players on the Patriots missing practices in 2006, 2007, and 2008 with soft tissue injuries: hamstring, calf, thigh, etc.

I think it's also worth noting that DeMarcus Ware tallied 19.5 sacks in 2011, Woicik's first year on the staff. As I noted before, having joined the team essentially mid-off-season, there isn't a lot of stuff to implement to lay a foundation for a strength and conditioning program, so there was probably a lot of carry-over from Juraszek's program.

In 2012 and 2013, Ware was plagued with soft tissue injuries, which led to other injuries due to overcompensation.

Although slowed by knee sprains in 2008 (which he battled a bit as a rookie and sophomore player), Miles Austin had pretty good years, free of what we all think are "bad hamstrings" until...2011. Woicik's first year with the team.

Just some more stuff to think about. We'll see how Austin and Ware do in different programs this year. I will say this, though - if Ware records double-digit sacks and plays all 16 games, I will be sick. I will also be 110% on the fire Woicik bandwagon.

 

[CCBoy]

Deeper digging into the injury reports has turned up quite a few players on the Patriots missing practices in 2006, 2007, and 2008 with soft tissue injuries: hamstring, calf, thigh, etc.

I think it's also worth noting that DeMarcus Ware tallied 19.5 sacks in 2011, Woicik's first year on the staff. As I noted before, having joined the team essentially mid-off-season, there isn't a lot of stuff to implement to lay a foundation for a strength and conditioning program, so there was probably a lot of carry-over from Juraszek's program.

In 2012 and 2013, Ware was plagued with soft tissue injuries, which led to other injuries due to overcompensation.

Although slowed by knee sprains in 2008 (which he battled a bit as a rookie and sophomore player), Miles Austin had pretty good years, free of what we all think are "bad hamstrings" until...2011. Woicik's first year with the team.

Just some more stuff to think about. We'll see how Austin and Ware do in different programs this year. I will say this, though - if Ware records double-digit sacks and plays all 16 games, I will be sick. I will also be 110% on the fire Woicik bandwagon.

Nice focus with Demarcus Ware...

 

[lqmac1]

As everyone is well aware not only here at CowboysZone, but also in the media, the Dallas Cowboys seem to have a bit of a problem staying healthy.

“<Insert Player> is made of glass!”

“Day to Day, then to IR with this training staff.”

“It’s Jerry’s fault!”​

These are some of the lamentations read on this site as well as others. However, one of them might hold some water, or at least provide some eyebrow-raising when it comes to discussing just who’s fault it is for what seems like the never-ending “injury bug” for this team.

We all remember Joe Juraszek. Solid coach, never really heard his name for anything until he came down with health issues and departed the team after the 2010 season going into 2011. In 2011, the Cowboys turned to a blast from the past in Mike Woicik, who would be responsible for strength and conditioning, or in other terms, getting players healthy and keeping them healthy, aside from the standard “strength and conditioning” duties involving weight lifting and cardiovascular fitness.

I did some research, and while I tried to dig up injury history for the New England Patriots from Woicik’s first year in 2000 to his last in 2010, the only available database online (PFF) went back to 2009 for annual injury reports. The numbers there are aggregate numbers, meaning they are the total number of times a particular status was reported on the injury report each week, for the season, absent any specifics. There are much more detailed tables available on the site (who was questionable which weeks, who was on IR, etc.), however, my brief observations are meant to be used as a cursory glance to see just what the problem is.

Interestingly, the numbers trend in favor of Mike Woicik’s presence on each team’s coaching staff being responsible for more of the soft tissue style injuries that result in a Probable or Questionable designation, and the likelihood that the players would overcome those injuries and be able to participate in game action throughout the season.

Prior to 2011 (the year Woicik Era II began in Dallas), Dallas Cowboys players played 27% of the time more with a reported injury (P, Q, D, Out, IR, or PUP) than New England. After 2011? New England’s guys played with an injury 33.1% more than our Boys.*

While I understand that this is basic, rudimentary research, and it does not take into account certain reports in full, and their respective context (Tom Brady to IR for 16 weeks in 2011; The Kitna season in 2010; players who "play through it"), I think that the basic overview is somewhat shocking. As we know, injury reports can in fact be fudged. However, with a reported injury, the probability that the player will in fact play I believe is a testament to the training staff being able to make a proper diagnosis and put players not only on a proper rehabilitation program during weekly practices, but also a foundational strength and conditioning program for preventing injuries in practice, in games, and as seasons wear on. In summary, I believe that the competence of this strength and conditioning staff in Dallas is certainly open to criticism and is somewhat questionable, despite me not previously being a believer of the “bad training staff” mindset.

What do you think? Talk about it!

*For specific seasons or injury report designations, I will be happy to discuss and provide specific numbers in this thread as I have the time.

How dare you make sense? "He's won 6 superbowls" "He's the best in the business". I got murdered for posting that a year ago. But, nevertheless, he should get canned.. He's terrible!

 

[dogberry]

Do the team's physicians have any responsibility in this area? (That sounds like an incredibly stupid question on my part)

The trainers?

Jenkins and Ratliff were in control of their healthcare. How many players ignored the team on health?

 

[AbeBeta]

Deeper digging into the injury reports has turned up quite a few players on the Patriots missing practices in 2006, 2007, and 2008 with soft tissue injuries: hamstring, calf, thigh, etc.

I think it's also worth noting that DeMarcus Ware tallied 19.5 sacks in 2011, Woicik's first year on the staff. As I noted before, having joined the team essentially mid-off-season, there isn't a lot of stuff to implement to lay a foundation for a strength and conditioning program, so there was probably a lot of carry-over from Juraszek's program.

In 2012 and 2013, Ware was plagued with soft tissue injuries, which led to other injuries due to overcompensation.

Although slowed by knee sprains in 2008 (which he battled a bit as a rookie and sophomore player), Miles Austin had pretty good years, free of what we all think are "bad hamstrings" until...2011. Woicik's first year with the team.

Just some more stuff to think about. We'll see how Austin and Ware do in different programs this year. I will say this, though - if Ware records double-digit sacks and plays all 16 games, I will be sick. I will also be 110% on the fire Woicik bandwagon.

Again, you have a theory and you are looking to whatever data you can find to support it.

Here's an alternative theory. The players you mentioned got older. Also, Ware suffered numerous injuries, only a few of the "soft tissue" sort that you cite. He's had several surgeries - elbow, shoulder - that have nothing to do with those issues. I would expect soft tissue injuries to follow from compensating for structural damage, not the other way around.

As far as Austin goes, he totally bucks your "carry-over from Juraszek's program" argument. He was injured throughout 2011 but was far healthier in 2012. How on earth can you attribute Ware's 2011 health to Juraszek, then turn around in the very same post and attribute Austin's 2011 injuries to Woicik. Ya see what I'm saying about having a theory and blindly grasping at data to support it?

 

[CCBoy]

Again, you have a theory and you are looking to whatever data you can find to support it.

Here's an alternative theory. The players you mentioned got older. Also, Ware suffered numerous injuries, only a few of the "soft tissue" sort that you cite. He's had several surgeries - elbow, shoulder - that have nothing to do with those issues. I would expect soft tissue injuries to follow from compensating for structural damage, not the other way around.

As far as Austin goes, he totally bucks your "carry-over from Juraszek's program" argument. He was injured throughout 2011 but was far healthier in 2012. How on earth can you attribute Ware's 2011 health to Juraszek, then turn around in the very same post and attribute Austin's 2011 injuries to Woicik. Ya see what I'm saying about having a theory and blindly grasping at data to support it?

AbeBeta, now I'm not starting out in the vein of insult here, you have been coming up with some good discussive issues. I don't always agree, but they do have merit.

I'm enjoying your reads...