Is it Me? Or Was the Offensive Line Kinda Backwards Last Season?

[McKDaddy]

Then why did Larry Allen and Zack Martin play Guard?

Either could have been great at Tackle for years but they were dominant at guard.

Larry played every position but C if I'm not mistaken. Eventually he settled in at LG but he went where the team needed him to put the best 5 on the field especially early in his career. If I recall correctly, he slid back out to T later in his career when we had injuries. Talent & willingness to adapt.

Zack was always more suited for G in the NFL regardless of where he played in college. Should he have been willing to shift out when needed? Yes. Did he? No.

But both of these guys were built more like G's. Larry's freakiness allowed him to do whatever he wanted to do. Tyler on the other hand has the physical characteristics of a T. He has also show a willingness & talent to do either. Can he be more dominant at one position? Maybe. We don't really know how he would do at LT if allowed to focus on it for a period. Is he a really good LG? Yes.

I do know for sure though that I will take a really good LT & a league average G over an inconsistent T & and AllPro G any day of the week. T is simply just more important and harder to find.

 

[75boyz]

So the question becomes...
Does Schott do a Garrett and just allow the QB to get pummeled because of an incompetent Chaz Green left by himself...?

OR if Guyton and/or Richards were getting abused, should Schott replace Guyton/Richards with Tyler Smith in order to protect his QB and put his team in the best position to win as possible?

More simply put:
IF the current starting left tackle(s) cant get the job done you need to draft another pedigreed replacement or get one through free agency.

But in the meantime, and even if its for a full season, you put your best left tackle on your team at left tackle so your starting QB doesn't get killed.

This ain't rocket science.

 

[thunderpimp91]

Where are you coming up with Brock Hoffman being a mixed bag? Brock Hoffman had a PFF average score (66.3), run (62.1) and pass blocking (68.9) scores better than Zack Martin and even Cooper Beebe.

No promises, but if I get time this weekend I'll try to make a video of some of the film of Hoffman that breaks down where I'm coming from.

 

[thunderpimp91]

Pretty average??? And Guyton wasn't awful and Hoffman was better than a mixed bag.

I can understand the Hoffman pushback, but Guyton was indeed awful in 2024. He had a couple nice games mid season, if memory serves me correct SF, maybe ATL were pretty strong showings of what Guyton could be, but outside of that he was largely abused by NFL talent. Started horribly in Cleveland, had a mini showing of positive play mid year, and by the end of the season he was seeing the bench more than the field. Speed rushers dominated him, power rushers dominated him. He doesn't block zone runs well at all. He showed some promise on power runs, but even that was pretty inconsistent. The physical tools are there, but he was easily among the worst starting tackles in the league.

 

[75boyz]

I can understand the Hoffman pushback, but Guyton was indeed awful in 2024. He had a couple nice games mid season, if memory serves me correct SF, maybe ATL were pretty strong showings of what Guyton could be, but outside of that he was largely abused by NFL talent. Started horribly in Cleveland, had a mini showing of positive play mid year, and by the end of the season he was seeing the bench more than the field. Speed rushers dominated him, power rushers dominated him. He doesn't block zone runs well at all. He showed some promise on power runs, but even that was pretty inconsistent. The physical tools are there, but he was easily among the worst starting tackles in the league.

Evan Neal 2.0.
Neal just failed as a right tackle is the only difference.
Both 6' 7".
Both with bad fundamental balance issues.

 

[thunderpimp91]

Smith made second team All Pro so your claim he is only above average is BS
We started two rookies; had a HOF player worn down and injured; and a RT that has never seemed to recover fully. And young guys that need more time to show what they are. There is talent there; more than you claim easily

I never said Smith was only above average, I simply said hes the only player on the OL that is definitively hop half or better at his position, so hes essentially a top 16LG in football. Top 16 could be #1 or it could be #16. It's really more of a statement about the rest of the OL than it is about Smith directly. I think Beebe is right there in that conversation too, but I struggle to say that he is definitively in the top half of Centers in football. Personally I'd put him in there, but hes closer to the 10-16 range than he is the top of the list.

Remove Smith from the conversation for a minute and you still have 4 players on the OL that were average to bad a season ago. Ultimately we are going into the 2025 season with a LT we are hoping can step up and be the 1st round talent he was drafted to be. We are hoping that Cooper Beebe can improve to be a top 10 Center. We are hoping that Brock Hoffman can be the guy he was in the Cincinnati or New York game instead of the Tampa or Carolina game. We are hoping that Steele and regain pre injury form and be at least an average RT. We really only have one guy that we can be completely confident in to be great while 80% of our OL we are hoping for improvement on. Thats the issue.

 

[big dog cowboy]

He did ok for not playing that position in years.

First he wasn't great. Now he did ok.

Did you watch any of him at all last year?

 

[big dog cowboy]

I can understand the Hoffman pushback, but Guyton was indeed awful in 2024.

He wasn't awful. He just wasn't. But whatever.

 

[thunderpimp91]

Evan Neal 2.0.
Neal just failed as a right tackle is the only difference.
Both 6' 7".
Both with bad fundamental balance issues.

Absolutely, and this is exactly why we can't just assume a full NFL offseason for a guy like Guyton will fix him. It would be great if it did, but that is far from a guarantee. Even as much as I like a guy like Cooper Beebe player development isnt always a linear thing. Plenty of guys see sophomore slumps. Four guys on this OL we are hoping improve over their 2024 performances. Odds are some will improve and odds are some of them will regress.

 

[thunderpimp91]

He wasn't awful. He just wasn't. But whatever.

Honestly can you tell me just one thing that Tyler Guyton did well in 2024?

 

[gtb1943]

I never said Smith was only above average, I simply said hes the only player on the OL that is definitively hop half or better at his position, so hes essentially a top 16LG in football. Top 16 could be #1 or it could be #16. It's really more of a statement about the rest of the OL than it is about Smith directly. I think Beebe is right there in that conversation too, but I struggle to say that he is definitively in the top half of Centers in football. Personally I'd put him in there, but hes closer to the 10-16 range than he is the top of the list.

Remove Smith from the conversation for a minute and you still have 4 players on the OL that were average to bad a season ago. Ultimately we are going into the 2025 season with a LT we are hoping can step up and be the 1st round talent he was drafted to be. We are hoping that Cooper Beebe can improve to be a top 10 Center. We are hoping that Brock Hoffman can be the guy he was in the Cincinnati or New York game instead of the Tampa or Carolina game. We are hoping that Steele and regain pre injury form and be at least an average RT. We really only have one guy that we can be completely confident in to be great while 80% of our OL we are hoping for improvement on. Thats the issue.

really backpeddling I see about Tyler Smith

 

[thunderpimp91]

really backpeddling I see about Tyler Smith

Original post - "They have one player in Tyler Smith who is definitively in the top half of the league at his position. "
Next post - "I never said Smith was only above average, I simply said hes the only player on the OL that is definitively hop half or better at his position"

Please show me where I am back peddling....please show me.

 

[75boyz]

Absolutely, and this is exactly why we can't just assume a full NFL offseason for a guy like Guyton will fix him. It would be great if it did, but that is far from a guarantee. Even as much as I like a guy like Cooper Beebe player development isnt always a linear thing. Plenty of guys see sophomore slumps. Four guys on this OL we are hoping improve over their 2024 performances. Odds are some will improve and odds are some of them will regress.

No doubt there are no offseason performance improvement guarantees based off one year so I find myself hoping really hard that Riley possesses the coach 'em up ability to help all the guys reach their max potential whatever position he assigns them.
I agree with most all of your observations although Hoffman may surprise ya I think.
Or at least I hope, lol.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Honestly can you tell me just one thing that Tyler Guyton did well in 2024?

He had a couple real good games and looked good at times in others. You could easily see the talent was there. To say he was awful is an exaggeration.

 

[Pass2Run]

I never said Smith was only above average, I simply said hes the only player on the OL that is definitively hop half or better at his position, so hes essentially a top 16LG in football. Top 16 could be #1 or it could be #16. It's really more of a statement about the rest of the OL than it is about Smith directly. I think Beebe is right there in that conversation too, but I struggle to say that he is definitively in the top half of Centers in football. Personally I'd put him in there, but hes closer to the 10-16 range than he is the top of the list.

Remove Smith from the conversation for a minute and you still have 4 players on the OL that were average to bad a season ago. Ultimately we are going into the 2025 season with a LT we are hoping can step up and be the 1st round talent he was drafted to be. We are hoping that Cooper Beebe can improve to be a top 10 Center. We are hoping that Brock Hoffman can be the guy he was in the Cincinnati or New York game instead of the Tampa or Carolina game. We are hoping that Steele and regain pre injury form and be at least an average RT. We really only have one guy that we can be completely confident in to be great while 80% of our OL we are hoping for improvement on. Thats the issue.

Personally, I think you are underestimating T.J. Bass.

 

[Pass2Run]

Instead of starting a new thread, I'm going to put this here.

The other thing that makes me think Tyler would be better at LT is that Bass makes a pretty good LG. He's a beast in the run game.

 

[Chasing6]

Guyton was RT in college but he blocked the blindside of a Left handed QB, whether rightly or wrongly the FO felt since he was the Blindside tackle on the right side he could transition to blindside tackle on the left. A lot of his issues last year was he was slow off the snap or had bad footwork, so it is a mental thing and a full off season plus his in season experience I expect him to be better. Zack was shell of his former self and all the lower leg injuries seemed to have piled up last year. Also starting a guy center that had limited experience at center up to that point was another issue. So last year was an OL reset year.

That's what happens when you draft for need vs best player available, because you choose to not participate in FA.

 

[thunderpimp91]

He had a couple real good games and looked good at times in others. You could easily see the talent was there. To say he was awful is an exaggeration.

So no you can't tell me what he does well as an NFL tackle.

A couple good games out of a 17 game schedule is the very definition of awful. I'm not doubting that the talent is there, but the results were below replacement player level. Chuma Edoga basically gave you the same production when he was in at LT. Richards may have even been slightly better IMO.

Personally, I think you are underestimating T.J. Bass.

I don't hate that take. Honestly I like Bass as a player. He got abused at times in pass pro a year ago, but if he can clean that up the Cowboys may have something. That's where I'm not a fan of the Cowboys OL though...I really wish they would have gone out and gotten more of a sure thing in free agency this year to simply reduce the number of question marks.

 

[Pass2Run]

So no you can't tell me what he does well as an NFL tackle.

A couple good games out of a 17 game schedule is the very definition of awful. I'm not doubting that the talent is there, but the results were below replacement player level. Chuma Edoga basically gave you the same production when he was in at LT. Richards may have even been slightly better IMO.


I don't hate that take. Honestly I like Bass as a player. He got abused at times in pass pro a year ago, but if he can clean that up the Cowboys may have something. That's where I'm not a fan of the Cowboys OL though...I really wish they would have gone out and gotten more of a sure thing in free agency this year to simply reduce the number of question marks.

They can still do that.

 

[Chasing6]

I don't know. Maybe the Cowboys know something I don't know....

But last year, they had their best LT, who also happens to be the best LG, playing LG. Meanwhile, the player that struggles the most ends up at LT, where his best position happens to be RT.

So what gives? Even when Dak went down, there were no changes in the offensive line where one could argue a player swap may have benefited an offense with a limited Cooper Rush. Or is it that he also likes the best protection from the LG position? Even if so, do these guys know what is best for them and the team?

I get it. They were experimenting out there. But the line could have been better if we had played our players to their strengths relative to doing so having a higher impact on the overall team.

Just my two cents

Is it me or is our FO mindset kind of backwards?

Does two backwards make a forwards?