Is Robert Horry a Hall of Famer?

[Mavs Man]

With a Spurs win, Robert Horry will have won his seventh NBA championship (Rockets - 2, Lakers - 3, Spurs - 2). Horry will play next season, during which the Spurs will be the overwhelming favorite to repeat as champions (outside of a major overhaul by the Suns in which they end up with Nash, Kobe, and KG).

His career averages are 7.2 points, 4.9 rebounds, 2.2 assists, 1.1 steals and 1.0 block per game. Very average, but on the other hand you have seven championships, a great nickname, and numerous big game winning shots/performances.

IMO, he's not a first-ballot lock, but he makes it. What do you think?

 

[Danny White]

With a Spurs win, Robert Horry will have won his seventh NBA championship (Rockets - 2, Lakers - 3, Spurs - 2). Horry will play next season, during which the Spurs will be the overwhelming favorite to repeat as champions (outside of a major overhaul by the Suns in which they end up with Nash, Kobe, and KG).

His career averages are 7.2 points, 4.9 rebounds, 2.2 assists, 1.1 steals and 1.0 block per game. Very average, but on the other hand you have seven championships, a great nickname, and numerous big game winning shots/performances.

IMO, he's not a first-ballot lock, but he makes it. What do you think?

I think the same argument was held in this forum after 2005.

I argued then that he was, and naturally, I'm sticking with that. In fact, I think it's a "slam dunk."

Really it begins and ends with this... the basketball hall of fame doesn't exactly have as stringent of standards as some of the others like Canton or Cooperstown.

Just look at some of the individuals who've been inducted over the past dozen years:

1996
Kresimir Cosic, Player
George Gervin, Player
Gail Goodrich, Player
Nancy Lieberman, Player
David Thompson, Player
George Yardley, Player

1997
Pete Carril, Coach
Joan Crawford, Player
Denise Curry, Player
Antonio Diaz-Miguel, Coach
Alex English, Player
Don Haskins, Coach
Bailey Howell, Player

1998
Larry Bird, Player
Jody Conradt, Coach
Alexander (Alex) Hannum, Coach
Marques Haynes, Player
Aleksandar Nikolic, Coach
Arnold (Arnie) Risen, Player
Leonard (Lenny) Wilkens, Coach

1999
Wayne Embry, Contributor
Kevin McHale, Player
Billie Moore, Coach
John Thompson, Coach
Fred Zollner, Contributor

2000
Danny Biasone, Contributor
Robert McAdoo, Player
Charles Newton, Contributor
Pat Head Summitt, Coach
Isiah Thomas, Player
Morgan Wootten, Coach

2001
John Chaney, Coach
Mike Krzyzewski, Coach
Moses Malone, Player

2002
Harlem Globetrotters, Team
Larry Brown, Coach
Earvin "Magic" Johnson, Player
Lute Olson, Coach
Drazen Petrovic, Player
Kay Yow, Coach

2003
Leon Barmore, Coach
Chick Hearn, Contributor
Meadowlark Lemon, Contributor
Earl Lloyd, Contributor
Dino Meneghin, Player
Robert Parish, Player
James Worthy, Player

2004
Jerry Colangelo, Contributer
Drazen Dalipagic, Player
Clyde Drexler, Player
Bill Sharman, Coach
Maurice Stokes, Player
Lynette Woodard, Player

2005
Jim Boeheim, Coach
Hubert "Hubie" Brown, Contributer
Jim Calhoun, Coach
Sue Gunter, Coach
Hortencia Marcari, Player

2006
Geno Auriemma, Coach
Charles Barkley, Player
Joe Dumars, Player
Sandro Gamba, Coach
David Gavitt, Contributer
Dominique Wilkins, Player

2007
Van Chancellor, Coach
Pedro Ferrandiz, Coach
Phil Jackson, Coach
Mirko Novosel, Coach
Marvin "Mendy" Rudolph, Referee
Texas Western, Team
Roy Williams, Coach

Now look at that list and tell me honestly if you don't think there's room for the guy who has the most rings in the history of the game (non-Celtic category) and a guy who has hit some of the most memorable clutch shots in recent memory.

There are some true stars on that list, but are also a lot of guys (and ladies) that probably have you saying "who dat?"

If this was baseball, then I'd say no way Horry's in. But since it's the basketball hall of fame, there's no way he's NOT in.

 

[carphalen5150]

Sorry...I don't think he is. He is undoubtedly one of the more clutch playoff performers of all time, but his career as a whole is average at best. He was a good defensive player, but only averaged double figures twice in his career. Winning matters, but if that is the case then Steve Kerr gets in too.

 

[joseephuss]

Sorry...I don't think he is. He is undoubtedly one of the more clutch playoff performers of all time, but his career as a whole is average at best. He was a good defensive player, but only averaged double figures twice in his career. Winning matters, but if that is the case then Steve Kerr gets in too.

I agree.

Sure there are names on that list that are not easily recognizable. People get into the basketball hall of fame in different niches. It is not limited to just the NBA. One person may be a big impact in women's college basketball and another may be a big contributor to European basketball. They aren't all judged by the same criteria.

Horry's niche is the NBA. In that he just was not a dominant player. He sure has had some clutch shots, but that doesn't overcome his average play for his entire career. The guy has been lucky to be on teams that have won it all. He is not the primary or even secondary reason those teams were able to win championships.

I remember in 1995 when he was with the Rockets. He hit a late 3 pointer to beat the Spurs in the western conference finals. It was his only basket of the game. It was a big shot, but where was he the rest of the game? I think there are a lot of guys that can hit the shots that Horry has made. They just were not in the fortunate position to be on those caliber teams and also be the 3rd or 4th option.

What Horry has been able to do is incredible, but I just don't see him as a Hall of Famer. I bet there are some NBA hall of famers that would gladly trade their HoF status for a couple of Horry's rings.

 

[miamicowboy21]

He shouldn't even sniff the hall of fame. He's hit big shots, but wasn't the main contributor to any of those championship teams. Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, Brian Shaw, Derek Fisher, and Sean elliot all hit big shots on Horry's championship teams. He's benefited from playing with dominant big men who draw double teams which opens up the perimeter for horry. The guy is getting far to much credit here. He won't even sniff the HOF ballot.

 

[Mavs Man]

I have to agree with DW - this isn't necessarily all about does "he deserve to get in" as it does in baseball with winning 300 games or 3,000 hits or 500 homers. He's accomplished quite a bit in the season that really matters, and holds a plethora of playoff records, championships notwithstanding.

I mean, Steve Nash is a two-time MVP. Not taking anything away from him, but would you have expected that to happen five years ago? Stranger things have happened.

On a related note, Charles Haley needs to get voted into the Football HoF. Five rings, 100 sacks - what gives?

 

[joseephuss]

I have to agree with DW - this isn't necessarily all about does "he deserve to get in" as it does in baseball with winning 300 games or 3,000 hits or 500 homers. He's accomplished quite a bit in the season that really matters, and holds a plethora of playoff records, championships notwithstanding.

I mean, Steve Nash is a two-time MVP. Not taking anything away from him, but would you have expected that to happen five years ago? Stranger things have happened.

On a related note, Charles Haley needs to get voted into the Football HoF. Five rings, 100 sacks - what gives?

I don't understand your comparison. No, I would not have expected Nash to be a two time MVP 5 years ago. How does that relate to Horry? Nash was not just given the award for the heck of it. He had two very good seasons and was the most important part of the Suns. It is strange that Nash achieved that level of play, but not strange that he was rewarded for that level of play.

I agree with Haley. He played at a high level for two teams. He was a force for two teams and an important defensive standout that made 5 SB championships possible.

 

[carphalen5150]

I mean, Steve Nash is a two-time MVP. Not taking anything away from him, but would you have expected that to happen five years ago? Stranger things have happened.

I guess this means that you think Horry will be an MVP in the next 5 years...well played.

 

[Mavs Man]

I don't understand your comparison. No, I would not have expected Nash to be a two time MVP 5 years ago. How does that relate to Horry? Nash was not just given the award for the heck of it. He had two very good seasons and was the most important part of the Suns. It is strange that Nash achieved that level of play, but not strange that he was rewarded for that level of play.

I agree with Haley. He played at a high level for two teams. He was a force for two teams and an important defensive standout that made 5 SB championships possible.

I guess this means that you think Horry will be an MVP in the next 5 years...well played.

Obviously I should have been a little clearer. In five years Horry will more than likely be retired and starting to come up for consideration for voting. I do not think he is a first ballot lock. I'm thinking it takes him five years or more. But he eventually makes it.

My example with Nash was that five years can do a lot to change people's minds. Nash was voted in (and deserved it). With the Mavs he was a good point guard with deficient defensive skills, but over the past three years he has earned back-to-back MVPs which guys like Shaq, David Robinson, Hakeem, and Dr. J only did once (and amazingly, among MJ's six MVPs he only had one back-to-back), and a serious case could be made for him deserving it this year, too, for a third in a row.

In five years, what will Horry's legacy be? He has seven championships, and a bunch of postseason records! And could very well add an 8th ring next year. Is he on the level of a role player like Derek Fisher or Rick Fox? Really? Is it not the Hall of Fame?

Horry averaged less than 30 minutes a game for his career. Obviously we should discount anyone in sports who doesn't play a full game, right? No closers or relief pitchers in baseball should be considered. No kickers in football (okay, bad example). Except that more and more RP and closers are going to make it in baseball, yes, even in baseball. You don't need two hands to count Hall of Fame kickers (and many of those who are in did more than kick or played 50 years) but do you really think Vinatieri is not making the Football HoF? He's only a kicker. He may have stats up there with kickers, but who cares. They're kickers. The stats are nice, but he gets in because he's clutch, and he has four rings.

At a certain point you have to think either Robert Horry is very, very lucky or he makes a significant contribution in the playoffs, when it matters.

As for Steve Kerr (five rings), I don't consider that as far of a stretch as some do. He retired with the a higher 3 point shooting percentage than anyone in history, had a pretty good (albeit short) career as an analyst, and if the Suns win a championship under his watch - why not?

 

[Yeagermeister]

He's going to run out of fingers before too long.

 

[carphalen5150]

It is the Hall of Fame...that fame is based on team accomplishments yes, but more so on your individual accomplishments. Horry does not have the stats to get in, plain and simple.

 

[Hostile]

He's a career role player....no.

 

[MC KAos]

of course he gets in! he has multiple playoffs and finals records!! he was a MAJOR contributor on the lakers championships, i mean, if he doesnt hit that 3 against the kings, the lakers go down 3-1 and dont win that series. if it wasnt for robert horry, the spurs wouldnt have won game five of the 2005 nba finals, and i dont think we would have won the championship!

robert horry is a hall of famer, its not about stats when it comes to the basketball hall of fame

 

[carphalen5150]

of course he gets in! he has multiple playoffs and finals records!! he was a MAJOR contributor on the lakers championships, i mean, if he doesnt hit that 3 against the kings, the lakers go down 3-1 and dont win that series. if it wasnt for robert horry, the spurs wouldnt have won game five of the 2005 nba finals, and i dont think we would have won the championship!

robert horry is a hall of famer, its not about stats when it comes to the basketball hall of fame

Actually, yes, it very much is stats.

He has no chance to get in...

 

[Mavs Man]

Question: Whose career stats are these?

G - 676
FG% - .387
FT% - .647
RPG - 3.5
APG - 4.3
PPG - 7.4

Answer: Boston Celtics Hall of Famer K.C. Jones

Statistically, he is more similar to Robert Horry than any current Hall of Famer. Jones won 8 championships, played great defense and hustled, but typically ranked only 7th or 8th on his team every season in points and rebounds.

In addition to Hall of Fame coach Red Auerbach, here is a partial list of his teammates:

Bob Cousy (1970 HoF)
Bill Russell (1974 HoF)
Bill Sharman (1975 HoF)
Frank Ramsey (1981 HoF)
Sam Jones (1983 HoF)
Jeff Havlicek (1983 HoF)
Tom Heinsohn (1986 HoF)
Bailey Howell (1997 HoF)
Clyde Lovellette (1988 HoF)

So, in the spirit of this thread, let's break down his accomplishments:

2 NCAA Championships
. . . with teammate Bill Russell.

Won an Olympic Gold Medal
. . . with teammate Bill Russell.

8 NBA Championships (as a player)
. . . as a role player with at least five and as many as seven Hall of Fame teammates every season and a Hall of Fame coach.

2 NBA Championships (as a coach)
. . . with a loaded team consisting of three (1st title) and four (2nd title) Hall of Fame players (and Dennis Johnson should make that four and five players, eventually)

Never averaged double-digits in scoring, rebounds, or assists
. . . in an era when every team’s scoring average from the 1960s was well over 100 ppg and, in some seasons, over 110 ppg.

Never selected as an all-star.

Other than Drexler and Olajuwon with the Rockets, Kobe, Shaq and Phil Jackson with the Lakers, and Tim Duncan and Popvich with the Spurs - what other Hall of Famers has Robert Horry teamed with? I guarantee you it wasn't as many as K.C. Jones played with. And if Horry only rode their coattails to multiple titles, shouldn't we revoke Jones' Hall of Fame induction?

I keep reading names like Steve Kerr, Derek Fisher, Devean George - do those players have seven championship rings? Nobody, outside of those on the Celtics dynasty, has more than six.

Nobody but Horry.

 

[joseephuss]

of course he gets in! he has multiple playoffs and finals records!! he was a MAJOR contributor on the lakers championships, i mean, if he doesnt hit that 3 against the kings, the lakers go down 3-1 and dont win that series. if it wasnt for robert horry, the spurs wouldnt have won game five of the 2005 nba finals, and i dont think we would have won the championship!

robert horry is a hall of famer, its not about stats when it comes to the basketball hall of fame

Was he a major contributor? He hit some big shots. That is unquestioned, but he was never even the 3rd scoring option on any of those championship teams. In Houston he wasn't even the 4th option.

That was on offense, but it really applies to defense as well. In Houston, Hakeem anchored the defense and Mario Ellie was the primary defender on the perimeter. In 1994, Otis Thorpe was more important to the defense. In 995, Horry was co-defender #3 along with Chucky Brown. In SA, the defense is Duncan and Bowen.

I believe Horry is a good contributor, but not a major contributor. There is a difference. You can't take those big shots away from Horry. Amazing, but they alone are not enough to consider him a Hall of Famer.

There were guys on each of the championship teams he played for that also hit big shots and were asked and expected to do a lot more for their teams. Guys like Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan also hit big shots that won big games along with doing everything else. That is why they are Hall of Famers, no question. Can anyone actually say that Horry is in that category.

I can hear, "Well, they would not have won if Horry wasn't around." My response is that Horry would not even be in a position to attempt those important shots if those guys weren't around. They provided the opportunity. It is impressive that he stepped up and made the shots. Lots of guys in the league would not be able to do it, but there are also a lot that would if they traded places. I saw Mario Ellie hit as many big shots as Horry in the two year championship run of the Rockets. Ellie did not later play for the Lakers and Spurs. Horry did.

 

[MC KAos]

Was he a major contributor? He hit some big shots. That is unquestioned, but he was never even the 3rd scoring option on any of those championship teams. In Houston he wasn't even the 4th option.

That was on offense, but it really applies to defense as well. In Houston, Hakeem anchored the defense and Mario Ellie was the primary defender on the perimeter. In 1994, Otis Thorpe was more important to the defense. In 995, Horry was co-defender #3 along with Chucky Brown. In SA, the defense is Duncan and Bowen.

I believe Horry is a good contributor, but not a major contributor. There is a difference. You can't take those big shots away from Horry. Amazing, but they alone are not enough to consider him a Hall of Famer.

There were guys on each of the championship teams he played for that also hit big shots and were asked and expected to do a lot more for their teams. Guys like Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan also hit big shots that won big games along with doing everything else. That is why they are Hall of Famers, no question. Can anyone actually say that Horry is in that category.

I can hear, "Well, they would not have won if Horry wasn't around." My response is that Horry would not even be in a position to attempt those important shots if those guys weren't around. They provided the opportunity. It is impressive that he stepped up and made the shots. Lots of guys in the league would not be able to do it, but there are also a lot that would if they traded places. I saw Mario Ellie hit as many big shots as Horry in the two year championship run of the Rockets. Ellie did not later play for the Lakers and Spurs. Horry did.

i cant disagree with you about if it wasnt for duncan shaq and the dream, horry wouldnt have gotten those opportunities. However, when he got the chance, he STEPPED UP and made those sick shots! i mean, can you think of any player making more big, clutch shots like that besides michael jordan?(who is second in three points made in finals history, behind.......ROBERT HORRY) Like real mavs fan said, less deserving players are in the hall of fame, just the fact that he has been, yes, lucky enough to win 7 championships makes him a hall of famer, and all those countless big shots and moments just add to it. He will make the hall of fame when there is a bad class(like this years) id like to know if yall think bowen can make it to the hall of fame? i think he has a chance, but like dumb and dumber "so your saying there is a chance" type of thing, unless he keeps it up into his 40s

 

[joseephuss]

i cant disagree with you about if it wasnt for duncan shaq and the dream, horry wouldnt have gotten those opportunities. However, when he got the chance, he STEPPED UP and made those sick shots! i mean, can you think of any player making more big, clutch shots like that besides michael jordan?(who is second in three points made in finals history, behind.......ROBERT HORRY) Like real mavs fan said, less deserving players are in the hall of fame, just the fact that he has been, yes, lucky enough to win 7 championships makes him a hall of famer, and all those countless big shots and moments just add to it. He will make the hall of fame when there is a bad class(like this years) id like to know if yall think bowen can make it to the hall of fame? i think he has a chance, but like dumb and dumber "so your saying there is a chance" type of thing, unless he keeps it up into his 40s

Horry has also missed some big shots that cost his team games. In 2003 he shot 2 for 38 from the 3-point line for the Lakers.

He has made more 3-pointers in the finals than everyone. He has had the most opportunities. Other players would be capable of gaining the record if they played on the same teams he did. There is a big difference between the 3-pointers that Jordan shot and the ones that Horry shot. Jordan had to create his own shot and often was the focus of the defense. Horry floated around while the defense committed to stopping many of the other players on his teams.

Bowen is not a Hall of Famer. I don't put him in Horry's class yet. He was a non-entity before joining the Spurs. He does hit a higher percentage of 3-point shots in the playoffs than Horry.



Again, I think Horry is very good and has been important to each of his teams. I bet Hakeem would have liked to have a Horry like player with him when he reached the Finals in 1986.

I saw Mario Ellie hit many big playoff shots for the Rockets and Spurs on his way to 3 rings. Had he played with the Lakers, he may have gotten more. Horry combines good skills with being in the right situation.

I don't like the argument that just because someone else who is not worthy is in the Hall of Fame, then so and so deserves to be in now. Especially when the person being compared played in a long ago era like K.C. Jones. The league is much different now. When I think of all time best NBA players, Horry just does not make the list.

 

[Danny White]

OK, let's put Horry on the shelf for a second since he can't be defined by any one team.

Who from this Spurs team will be in the HOF?

Obviously (at least in my opinion):

Locks:
Tim Duncan
David Robinson
Gregg Popovich


Possibles:
Tony Parker
Manu Ginobili

* probably both of these either need to win one more with Duncan, or do something on their own when Duncan is gone.


Longshots:
Bruce Bowen

* I don't think he can make it because solid defense really doesn't translate well into stats. Also, he's a little long in the tooth, and I don't know how many more chances he'll have to add rings.


Looking at some of the contemporary "dynasties" the Showtime Lakers have Magic, Kareem and Worthy, and I think that's it (other than Pat Riley who will someday be in).

The Bird Celtics have Bird, McHale and Parish... and I think that's it.

The Bulls will have Jordan, Pippen, and Phil Jackson and that should be it.

The 2000s Lakers will have Shaq and Kobe (and Jackson) but I think that's it.

So looking at those lists, I think there's a strong argument for all three of Duncan, Parker and Ginobili making it. With three rings each, Parker and Manu have strong arguments, but probably have a little more work to do.

 

[Mavs Man]

I don't know what I can add to that, DW. Bowen is at more of a disadvantage compared to Horry, even though he's become a very good three point shooter and is a perennial first team NBA defensive player. But he'll need a few more rings before he enters the discussion - just not "sexy" enough to get voted in, at the moment.

As for Parker and Ginobili, if they add another championship or two they're probably in (if one is without Duncan I think it's a lock). Dynasties are always rewarded with multiple players over similar players (stat-wise) on teams without playoff/championship success. To the victor goes the spoils.