Is the defense actually better?

Doomsday101

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People like to say that, but the same thing has been true for the past few decades -- you win by passing the ball better than your opponent, not by running it better. It doesn't matter that much whether you're good at running the ball or bad at running it, or whether you're good at stopping the run or bad at it, if you can pass well and stop the pass, you'll win the vast majority of games, and if not, you won't. This has been proved time and time again, year after year.

Locker played well threw for more yards Austin Davis passed for more yards and 3 TD passing is important running an offense that can run and pass matters. I'm sorry but your stats do not tell the entire story as much as you would like to think so. Teams who can run and pass can control a ball game they can force the defense into no win situations. Dallas of the 90's were willing to run it down your throat at times handing it off 7 and 8 times in a row marching in for the TD and when teams went up to stop it they opened up big passing lanes down field. You can talk this stuff all day I have been watching the NFL since 1965 and teams who are balanced in their attack have a better chance than some team who passes all day long., Denver best passing team last year got their butts kicked by a seahawks team who could run and throw the ball. You act as if running does not matter and that is BS and many HC have said the same thing the importance of the run and the importance of stopping the run.
 

Idgit

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People like to say that, but the same thing has been true for the past few decades -- you win by passing the ball better than your opponent, not by running it better. It doesn't matter that much whether you're good at running the ball or bad at running it, or whether you're good at stopping the run or bad at it, if you can pass well and stop the pass, you'll win the vast majority of games, and if not, you won't. This has been proved time and time again, year after year.

And we've been harder to pass the ball against this season defensively, I gather.

What happens for us all as fans is that games are comfortable and low-risk when our offense is on the field, and we're all clenching and gripping when our defense is out there. So games where we're controlling the clock or controlling time of possession are generally more enjoyable than games where we're scoring at a similar pace in terms of points/drive but where we're not holding onto the ball for the same amount of time.

Look at this last SEA game, for example. That game felt like we were absolutely dominating them for 3 of the 4 quarters. The reality is, though, we don't make that improbable 3rd and 20 to Williams, and we're stuck on the road, down 3, with SEA having the ball and less that 5 minutes to play. Suddenly there's a very good chance we loose that game.

Fans, though, don't look at the outcomes. They tend to remember instead their relative emotions during the time they were watching. And there's no denying it's awesome watching guys line up and push the opposing defense around.
 

Doomsday101

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And we've been harder to pass the ball against this season defensively, I gather.

What happens for us all as fans is that games are comfortable and low-risk when our offense is on the field, and we're all clenching and gripping when our defense is out there. So games where we're controlling the clock or controlling time of possession are generally more enjoyable than games where we're scoring at a similar pace in terms of points/drive but where we're not holding onto the ball for the same amount of time.

Look at this last SEA game, for example. That game felt like we were absolutely dominating them for 3 of the 4 quarters. The reality is, though, we don't make that improbable 3rd and 20 to Williams, and we're stuck on the road, down 3, with SEA having the ball and less that 5 minutes to play. Suddenly there's a very good chance we loose that game.

Fans, though, don't look at the outcomes. They tend to remember instead their relative emotions during the time they were watching. And there's no denying it's awesome watching guys line up and push the opposing defense around.

Emotion has nothing to do with it. The running game allows you to pound on defensive lineman to slow them down they are just going after the QB. Hell we have had many games of 45 plus passes and Romo has broken damn near every cowboy record and it does not work. When this franchise and this team has shown balance they have won and won big. You look at the backs this team has had like Duane Thomas, Tony Dorsett, Emmitt Smith and now Murray and tell me that do not make a big difference in this team winning past and present? I don't think so
 

Idgit

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Emotion has nothing to do with it. The running game allows you to pound on defensive lineman to slow them down they are just going after the QB. Hell we have had many games of 45 plus passes and Romo has broken damn near every cowboy record and it does not work. When this franchise and this team has shown balance they have won and won big. You look at the backs this team has had like Duane Thomas, Tony Dorsett, Emmitt Smith and now Murray and tell me that do not make a big difference in this team winning past and present? I don't think so

If that were true, though, teams that run the ball better would also throw the ball better across the board. And, as Adam mentioned, that's been demonstrated not to be the case.
Or, just look at our SF game from week one. We actually controlled both lines of scrimmage. Murray put up 118 and 5.4 YPC and a touchdown, but Tony also had a 60.8 rating at three picks and we lose multiple scores.
 

Doomsday101

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If that were true, though, teams that run the ball better would also throw the ball better across the board. And, as Adam mentioned, that's been demonstrated not to be the case.
Or, just look at our SF game from week one. We actually controlled both lines of scrimmage. Murray put up 118 and 5.4 YPC and a touchdown, but Tony also had a 60.8 rating at three picks and we lose multiple scores.

Dallas had 3 turnovers in that game we well. It is about running an offense not just passing and not just running. Dallas offense have always been better when we have been able to run and pass doing one or the other is not winning ball games. Now some offense like WCO will use the swing pass as part of their running game that is how Bill Walsh described it, in the pro set offense the ability to run the ball becomes important it give you more control since defense is unable to key on one thing. A rushing TD and a passing TD count the same the object is getting the ball over the goal line how you go about doing it really does not matter.
 

AdamJT13

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Locker played well threw for more yards Austin Davis passed for more yards and 3 TD

Having more passing yards is not important, it's passing the ball WELL -- mainly yards per pass play and avoiding interceptions.Locker threw two interceptions. Davis threw two interceptions as well and needed almost twice as many pass attempts as Romo.

passing is important running an offense that can run and pass matters. I'm sorry but your stats do not tell the entire story as much as you would like to think so. Teams who can run and pass can control a ball game they can force the defense into no win situations. Dallas of the 90's were willing to run it down your throat at times handing it off 7 and 8 times in a row marching in for the TD and when teams went up to stop it they opened up big passing lanes down field. You can talk this stuff all day I have been watching the NFL since 1965 and teams who are balanced in their attack have a better chance than some team who passes all day long.

I never said anything about "passing all day long." It does not matter how often you pass the ball or run the ball -- you can run it 60 percent of the time or pass it 60 percent of the time and win either way. What matters is passing it well when you do pass, and stopping your opponent from doing the same. As I've said, that has been proved over and over and over.


You act as if running does not matter and that is BS and many HC have said the same thing the importance of the run and the importance of stopping the run.

Many Super Bowl champions have been among the worst (even THE worst in the league) in the league at running the ball and stopping the run. None -- at least not in the past few decades -- have been anywhere close to the worst at passing or stopping the pass. Right now, we're 31st in the league at stopping the run, allowing 5.1 yards per carry. Joining us among the worst in the league are the Chargers (5-1), Colts (4-2), Packers (4-2) and Bengals (3-1-1), as well as the Browns (3-2) and Panthers (3-2-1). No matter how much some coach says "we have to stop the run," is that really going to make a difference for us or any of those teams? Nope, probably not even a little bit.
 

Idgit

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Dallas had 3 turnovers in that game we well. It is about running an offense not just passing and not just running. Dallas offense have always been better when we have been able to run and pass doing one or the other is not winning ball games. Now some offense like WCO will use the swing pass as part of their running game that is how Bill Walsh described it, in the pro set offense the ability to run the ball becomes important it give you more control since defense is unable to key on one thing. A rushing TD and a passing TD count the same the object is getting the ball over the goal line how you go about doing it really does not matter.

Again, it's about effectiveness, and not about the run/pass mix. And there's little to suggest that running the ball better let's you key in on anything. If there were, then teams who run the ball more effectively would also pass more effectively, in which case there'd be a correlation between running effectively and winning football games.
 

jobberone

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Haven't read all the thread so if I repeat data, forgive. Last year over 6 games we gave up 152 pts. This year 126.

This year we are 3rd in rushing atts vs 14th a year ago. 17th in yards vs 27th, 31 y/a vs 30th, and 14th in TDs vs 26th a year ago. Y/A pass is 6.7 vs 7.0 and 5.1 run vs 4.7. Last year we gave up 2.25 pts per drive. I don't have that data this year.
 

jobberone

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Having more passing yards is not important, it's passing the ball WELL -- mainly yards per pass play and avoiding interceptions.Locker threw two interceptions. Davis threw two interceptions as well and needed almost twice as many pass attempts as Romo.



I never said anything about "passing all day long." It does not matter how often you pass the ball or run the ball -- you can run it 60 percent of the time or pass it 60 percent of the time and win either way. What matters is passing it well when you do pass, and stopping your opponent from doing the same. As I've said, that has been proved over and over and over.




Many Super Bowl champions have been among the worst (even THE worst in the league) in the league at running the ball and stopping the run. None -- at least not in the past few decades -- have been anywhere close to the worst at passing or stopping the pass. Right now, we're 31st in the league at stopping the run, allowing 5.1 yards per carry. Joining us among the worst in the league are the Chargers (5-1), Colts (4-2), Packers (4-2) and Bengals (3-1-1), as well as the Browns (3-2) and Panthers (3-2-1). No matter how much some coach says "we have to stop the run," is that really going to make a difference for us or any of those teams? Nope, probably not even a little bit.

Always a good read Adam.

Can't get around running the ball and passing it well esp more effectively than your opponent; discounting turnovers and somewhat field position.
 

burmafrd

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if you can run the ball effectively you can pass easier-as long as you have the passing game to get it done. THAT has been proven over the years
 

Idgit

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if you can run the ball effectively you can pass easier-as long as you have the passing game to get it done. THAT has been proven over the years

Only...it hasn't. If it had, running effectively would correlate with winning more than it does.
 

AdamJT13

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if you can run the ball effectively you can pass easier-as long as you have the passing game to get it done. THAT has been proven over the years

That has been postulated over the years, but the facts say otherwise. What HAS been proved over the years it that there is very little correlation between running effectively and passing effectively (or, on defense, being able to stop the run and being able to stop the pass). The Dolphins are one of the best running teams but are one of the worst passing teams. Same with the Jets and Titans. The Chargers are THE WORST at running the ball but No. 1 at passing it. The Broncos are 29th at running and one of the best at passing. Just because you can run it well, that doesn't mean you can pass it easier.
 

xwalker

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And we've been harder to pass the ball against this season defensively, I gather.

What happens for us all as fans is that games are comfortable and low-risk when our offense is on the field, and we're all clenching and gripping when our defense is out there. So games where we're controlling the clock or controlling time of possession are generally more enjoyable than games where we're scoring at a similar pace in terms of points/drive but where we're not holding onto the ball for the same amount of time.

Look at this last SEA game, for example. That game felt like we were absolutely dominating them for 3 of the 4 quarters. The reality is, though, we don't make that improbable 3rd and 20 to Williams, and we're stuck on the road, down 3, with SEA having the ball and less that 5 minutes to play. Suddenly there's a very good chance we loose that game.

Fans, though, don't look at the outcomes. They tend to remember instead their relative emotions during the time they were watching. And there's no denying it's awesome watching guys line up and push the opposing defense around.

There are some obvious problems with the concept that "passing more efficiently wins games regardless of the running game" concept.

If that were 100% correct, then LBs and Safeties would be replaced by CBs.

What should really be said is that "the effect of the running game can't easily be determined using statistics".

Passing more efficiently = wins is similar to say scoring more points = wins.

The running game obviously has an effect on the passing game. What would a team's passing efficiency be if all of the LBs and Safeties were replaced by QBs? Obviously, any offense would be less efficient passing against a defense of with 7 CBs.

You could probably use statistics that would make it appear that more rushing attempts in the 4th quarter lead to blowout wins. In reality, we know that teams that are way ahead on the scoreboard in the 4th quarter often run the ball more than they normally would. We know that to be true, but the statistics can't show the difference in cause and effect.

Defenses dynamically adjust to good rushing teams and their pass coverage often suffers, but it's really difficult to show using simple statistics. The same defense might play 2 offenses and limit the running game of both offenses to 50 yards; however, if the defense played 8 men in the box against 1 offense and played 7 men in the box against the other offense, then the offense that faced 7 men in the box would have an advantage in the passing game, but it wouldn't show up in the rushing statistics.
 

jobberone

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There are some obvious problems with the concept that "passing more efficiently wins games regardless of the running game" concept.

If that were 100% correct, then LBs and Safeties would be replaced by CBs.

What should really be said is that "the effect of the running game can't easily be determined using statistics".

Passing more efficiently = wins is similar to say scoring more points = wins.

The running game obviously has an effect on the passing game. What would a team's passing efficiency be if all of the LBs and Safeties were replaced by QBs? Obviously, any offense would be less efficient passing against a defense of with 7 CBs.

You could probably use statistics that would make it appear that more rushing attempts in the 4th quarter lead to blowout wins. In reality, we know that teams that are way ahead on the scoreboard in the 4th quarter often run the ball more than they normally would. We know that to be true, but the statistics can't show the difference in cause and effect.

Defenses dynamically adjust to good rushing teams and their pass coverage often suffers, but it's really difficult to show using simple statistics. The same defense might play 2 offenses and limit the running game of both offenses to 50 yards; however, if the defense played 8 men in the box against 1 offense and played 7 men in the box against the other offense, then the offense that faced 7 men in the box would have an advantage in the passing game, but it wouldn't show up in the rushing statistics.

This. It's even more complicated than this excellent post but you get the idea. You can't explain it all in a post or a thread. It would take a book.
 

AdamJT13

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There are some obvious problems with the concept that "passing more efficiently wins games regardless of the running game" concept.

If that were 100% correct, then LBs and Safeties would be replaced by CBs.

Nobody said it was 100% correct. You can pass more effectively and still lose for any number of reasons -- fumbles, special teams, etc. But the vast majority of the time (roughly 80%, in most seasons), you will win the game if you pass it better.

And it's illogical to say that something that has been proved cannot be correct because of the lack of some arbitrary decision by coaches. That's like saying that turnovers can't be important or else teams would do something drastic to avoid them, such as never passing in any situation or even just taking a knee on every snap. (Not to mention that replacing linebackers and safeties with backup cornerbacks wouldn't necessarily help you play better pass defense -- they'd represent almost no pass-rush threat, would severely reduce your ability to tackle, they'd be mismatched against tight ends, they'd be much less intimidating to receivers going over the middle, etc.)

Anyhow, you can imagine what might happen in some theoretical situation all you want, but in reality -- in the way the NFL is actually played -- what is true is true, regardless of whether you want to believe it.

What should really be said is that "the effect of the running game can't easily be determined using statistics"

In other words, rushing success or failure has no significantly measurable effect on the game.


Passing more efficiently = wins is similar to say scoring more points = wins.

Now you're getting the idea. In most games, passing more efficiently is pretty much inherent to the team that wins.


You could probably use statistics that would make it appear that more rushing attempts in the 4th quarter lead to blowout wins. In reality, we know that teams that are way ahead on the scoreboard in the 4th quarter often run the ball more than they normally would. We know that to be true, but the statistics can't show the difference in cause and effect.

So you're saying that teams pass more effectively BECAUSE they are winning, and they pass more effectively BECAUSE they are losing? Good luck trying to come up with any evidence of that being even partly true.



Defenses dynamically adjust to good rushing teams and their pass coverage often suffers, but it's really difficult to show using simple statistics.

Right, "simple statistics" such as yards, turnovers, points and, you know, wins -- all those meaningless football statistics.


The same defense might play 2 offenses and limit the running game of both offenses to 50 yards; however, if the defense played 8 men in the box against 1 offense and played 7 men in the box against the other offense, then the offense that faced 7 men in the box would have an advantage in the passing game, but it wouldn't show up in the rushing statistics.

Do you think teams randomly choose when to play "eight in the box" or "seven in the box"? Or might they use "eight in the box" against better rushing teams and "seven in the box" against better passing teams? (I'm assuming you had a typo when you said that a team facing seven in the box would have an advantage in the passing game -- that would make no sense if you actually meant it.) If teams stack the box against better rushing teams, then you're saying that those teams should have an advantage in the passing game, correct? And if that's true, then that "advantage" should be measurable -- but there is very little correlation. One reason is that game situations typically dictate what type of defense is played, especially in passing situations. When it's third-and-8 (or third-and-20), or when you've got 80 yards to go in less than 2 minutes, being a good rushing team probably won't make a lick of difference -- you'd better be able to throw the ball against a defense that knows you're going to pass. And those are often the situations that determine who wins the game.
 

kramskoi

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When it's third-and-8 (or third-and-20), or when you've got 80 yards to go in less than 2 minutes, being a good rushing team probably won't make a lick of difference -- you'd better be able to throw the ball against a defense that knows you're going to pass. And those are often the situations that determine who wins the game.
Makes sense to me, and I'm a stickler for a vaunted running attack...play-action is no good if you can't get the ball accurately down field. These observations explain how the Cowboys were able to do what they did during 4 stellar seasons in the 90's...it is also why the same "pick-your-poison" offense of that time period is slowly coming back into focus in 2014. 10 TDs to 2 INT's over the last 4 or 5 games and if Romo can maintain his current passer rating for the remainder of the season, then the Cowboys will indeed present the same dilemma to defenses that the Superbowl teams did. You would not be far off the mark in crediting just 2 or 3 big passing plays for the last two Cowboy wins...the difference between 5-1 and 3-3. Not so simple as that, but you could make the argument.

It is also likely the biggest reason why Dallas escaped Houston...which had good running vs. not so good passing by Fitzpatrick...some of this with Seattle and Wilson as well, who went 50% comp. and 47 passer rating...not enough just to be able to run...if the other team can control the run game then it's no dice...you need both to achieve a synergy.
 
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jobberone

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I agree completely with Adam about the correlation on paper between passing more effectively than the other team and winning. However, we'd disagreed about running the ball for years. It's a very complicated subject matter about running and winning and it's difficult to cover it all well in short posts.

But it's not just a cliche when players and coaches state their primary goal very often is to stop the run. In fact teams have changed the game over stopping the run by giving DTs such a vital, varied and complicated job as well as the types of players drafted. Whole defensive concepts and schemes have evolved from the early 40s to deal with task of stopping the run while dealing with the forward pass. It takes a book by a very knowledgeable person to put it all on paper.

You must be able to run the ball effectively in this league. That correlates to the opposite task of being able to defend the run effectively while still being flexible enough to play the pass as well in base defenses. Teams struggle with the task of stopping the run in SPs where the primary goal is to stop the pass with pass rushers on the line and coverage guys behind them.

Passing the ball more effectively than your opponent IS going to reflect in the stats more to wins than rushing. But that statistic doesn't reflect how much the running game dovetails into that stat. You MUST run the ball effectively in this league to consistently win.
 
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