Joseph draft pick?

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by Verdict, Nov 30, 2021.

  1. buybuydandavis

    buybuydandavis Well-Known Member

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    The Joseph pick screamed "we've already got a young guy we like in Diggs, and have two decent vets as bridge players, so we can afford to swing for the fences and take the CB with the most upside even if he will need some development."

    Joseph was the opposite of a forced pick. It was BPA, *long term*.

    His injury pushed back his development timetable. It happens. It is a disappointment that even when available on the roster the last few games, he hasn't even broken into the defensive rotation yet, only getting garbage time snaps against Atlanta. Maybe his "upside" never materializes. That would make him a bad pick, but not a forced one. You don't take development players as "forced picks". Forced picks are about getting players on the field *now*.

    To scare people, Joseph is like the Hill pick. Swung for the fences on a player based on physical traits, knowing that he would need development, and feeling that we had vets in place short term, and he wouldn't be *needed* his rookie year.
    817Gill and ActualCowboysFan like this.
  2. Creeper

    Creeper Well-Known Member

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    I also think the Cowboys were locked in on a CB after missing out on Horn and Surtain. Joseph has the better workout numbers, including an unofficial 4.28 and an official 4.34. But he is only an inch taller than Samuel. Joseph also has longer arms. I think the Cowboys might have been hoping Stokes or Campbell fell to them in round 2. I was a little surprised both of those guys went as early as they did but GB has a habit of doing that late in the first round.

    Hindsight is 20-20. At the time who would have been the better pick, definitively? Ojulari might has been a good pick for the future. JOK might have been a good pick but they already took Parsons. Humphrey or Dickerson might have been decent picks but they were going defense early and if they were going to pick OL, they were going to get a tackle.

    I think Dallas did okay with the cards they were dealt. I would bet that players the Cowboys really wanted were taken a few picks ahead of them. I believe the Cowboys wanted Milton Williams in the 3rd but the Eagles took him so Dallas took Odighizuwa.
    CowboyRoy likes this.
  3. quickccc

    quickccc Well-Known Member

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    Only if the Cowboys evaluate, value and select an OLineman in the 1st round, in according to their value of their draft board.
    Only if an OL guy is warranted at the spot the Cowboys are at ... or if they see an OL that they think that justifies moving up ..(or down) to select a few picks later (per Travis Fredrick)
    i never believe you don't take an OL guy - just for the sake of desperately taking one at your particular spot in a round.

    i still ponder from this past year's draft is, per Cowboys War room draft rumor, .as why McClay & the Cowboys consider Chargers OT stud rookie Reyshawn Slater more of an OG prospect than OT ?
  4. fivetwos

    fivetwos Well-Known Member

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    If you listen to Jones comments after day two....they were getting a corner with the second pick after not getting one with the first.

    Awful way to approach a draft.

    I can't believe that anyone had Joseph rated ahead of Ojulari or Moehrig.

    Stephen Jones: "it wouldn't have mattered."
  5. Coogiguy03

    Coogiguy03 Well-Known Member

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    Can't trust Joseph bad bad pick pacman Jones
  6. quickccc

    quickccc Well-Known Member

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    - Reportedly the Cowboys saw Chargers' rookie starting CB Asante Samuel Jr as more of a " Nickel back" than a starting CB. Basically nickel as in Jourdan Lewis or Orlando Scandrick.
    Some teams have that particular prototype in certain positions, and they stick to their draft board in accordance to that preference.

    - Not only did the Cowboys coveted Surtain Jr and JC Horn. CBs in the first round., But i heard guys like David Moore make mentioned that the other CB that they were
    targeting with their 2nd round pick was Packers rookie starting CB Eric Stokes (who went in 1st rd to GB) .

    - Even if Joseph won't appear to have the idea starting rookie year that many of us envisioned, not only am i not even close to giving up this potential but i can understand
    and agree with the Cowboys as to why he factored as a high and early 2nd rd pick.
    At the college level, Joseph competed very well in covering vs Heisman Winner WR Devontae Smith, he has 4.35 speed, shown INT skills his final year at Kentucky.
    And i'm sure McClay placed his leading emphasis on player evaluation when he has repeatedly said " we want and look for players who love football. "
  7. buybuydandavis

    buybuydandavis Well-Known Member

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    With Joseph, we didn't draft the best player available at the time of the draft. We drafted best player for our new scheme projected into the future. That's arguably the right way to draft. It's about more than this year, it's about the long term return on the pick.

    The downside of that strategy is the increased uncertainty about what that value will be. And arguably we're just been bad at this strategy, missing on pick after pick after pick in the second round on defense for years.

    I would add LVE to the "upside" defenders we've whiffed on. That's a sad one. He projected as a perennial pro bowler in 2018. And then, not. We've been wrong on injury risk again and again.

    Diggs was more of a player who dropped than a developmental project with risk, and he's the one who has panned out so far, though it's still not clear on him. Big plays plus and minus. Mike Jenkins looked like a hit for a year, then flamed out. Let us hope Diggs marked a turning point, because we had whiff after whiff for years. Hill, LVE, Taco were all big whiffs. Gregory and Jones are ok returns on investment that never hit their perceived upside.

    You have to go back to Lawrence for one of the 1st/2nd round development projects that really panned out. He was a forced pick reach, IMO. He was best DE available when we needed a starter, but not best prospect available. If he wasn't named DeMarcus, I bet we don't pick him. He worked out, though I think his two big seasons were largely illusions created by some huge games early in 2018 when the league likely believed he was a JAG based on the previous year's nothing production. Once the league figured out he could play, he had some early big games in 2019, but not much since.

    5 sacks in the last 14 games of 2018, including playoffs.
    And once we paid him, it's gotten worse.
    5 sacks in 16 games in 2019.
    6.5 sacks in 16 games in 2020.
    1 game in 2021.

    Best pick of these. Bad resigning. Should have let him go.

    Gregory and Jones in 2015. Lawrence in 2014. We stunk it up from 2016 to 2019. Diggs in 2020 looks like we may have turned the corner with the ejection of Marinelli. We'll see on both Diggs and Joseph. To early to really call either one.
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  8. buddieluver

    buddieluver Well-Known Member

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    I actually wanted them to use that 2nd and sign JC Jackson he had 9 ints in 2020 and 7 so far in 2021.
  9. buybuydandavis

    buybuydandavis Well-Known Member

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    Samuel is small guy with little weight to him. Size matters in a lot of ways, including how long a player lasts. That's a long term issue, and we clearly prioritize long term value, although we're not that good at estimating it.
    817Gill and Fastpitch Dad like this.
  10. CowboysFaninHouston

    CowboysFaninHouston CowboysFaninDC

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    we hope, but so far its been a far we have no idea what he is.
  11. Mr_437

    Mr_437 Well-Known Member

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    JOK would've been a crazy pick, especially since all the LB have been struggling save #11. Joseph just has to get on the field consistently. I will admit, I'm uneasy about the pick, but I'd rather look at his upside.
    Fastpitch Dad and Verdict like this.
  12. Verdict

    Verdict Well-Known Member

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    They forced the hell out of that pick. You would think they would learn.
  13. Verdict

    Verdict Well-Known Member

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    While that may be the case it is not against the law to discuss how the draft looks at various points in time. Right now, the Joseph pick is t looking all that great. Let’s hope the passage of time makes it look a little bit better, or a whole lot better, if we are lucky.
  14. Verdict

    Verdict Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, and Creed was pretty much a very safe high ceiling, high floor pick. That was a no brainer spot to take him in round 2.
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  15. Verdict

    Verdict Well-Known Member

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    We are all pulling for him to be the next D. Sanders.
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  16. Verdict

    Verdict Well-Known Member

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    I can’t say that I disagree with anything you said. Spot on. Let’s hope Joseph’s “upside” eventually justifies the pick.
  17. CowboyRoy

    CowboyRoy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it was another one of those REACH picks where it was a first round talent with some question marks or issues. Its what jerry does in the 2nd round it seems.

    Funny you mention Humphy because I actually wanted him. However, Biadasz is playing well so I dont think that would affect anything.
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  18. Verdict

    Verdict Well-Known Member

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    Or, in light of the fact that this is a Cowboys message board, let’s discuss topics of interest, including the selection of a guy that a lot of people didn’t really like as our second round selection in Joseph. We all get that he might turn out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, and in fact I left that as a possibility in my original post.

    Right now, the Joseph pick is looking speculative. Let’s hope that changes. But if Creed Humphrey were starting in place of TB, this team just might be eyeballing the top seed in the NFC.

    While Joseph might turn out to be the next Prime Time, for this year at least, the draft pick’s return on investment is just about as meaningful as Rowdy on game day.
  19. DUO_CORE

    DUO_CORE Well-Known Member

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    Jerry needs to hire a GM who possesses hindsight so we can draft better.
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  20. Verdict

    Verdict Well-Known Member

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    Everyone is entitled to their own analysis of a player, but right now, TB isn’t playing very well, in my opinion, and I was slightly bullish on the pick and the move to get him at the time.

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