Jury is in - So what do you think... David Ortiz

ABQCOWBOY

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Was he juicing or did he just get old fast?

I do think it's interesting that his numbers took off in 2003-2004. Manny got to Boston in 2001. I do think it's interesting that the Mitchell report did not name any Red Sox players. Mitchell, as well all know was a member of the Red Sox form many years.

What do you guys think?
 

lewpac

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I'm a Yankee fan, but............

This guy is 34-35 yrs. old. He's 6'4", 230 lbs. He's been playing at an All-Star level for quite a while now.

Some guys, their skills diminish over a period of time. Other guys, it happens "all of sudden like". We now live in a country where what's happened to Ortiz "surely must be the result of something suspicious". I don't know.

With no evidence or no rumors of any chemical or steroid abuse, let this guy have some space. He shouldn't have to carry the bags or Manny just because they were close (from what I hear). Until futher notice, time, injury, and age have simply caught up with Ortiz.

If they find something illegal, then I'll be glad to change my mind.
 

Rampage

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David said he wants more testing and if someone fails a test for steroids they should be banned. I doubt he would say something like that if he was juicing. I think injuries played a huge part to his decline.
 

YosemiteSam

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So many people are using HGH in the MLB it's stupid. A-Rod and Mark Teixeira used it together in Texas, and now they are using together in New York. Manny, Ortiz, The Rocket, Mike Hampton, Andruw Jones, and a whole boatload more are all using.

Someone MUST figure out how to detect HGH.
 

YosemiteSam

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Rampage;2796715 said:
David said he wants more testing and if someone fails a test for steroids they should be banned. I doubt he would say something like that if he was juicing. I think injuries played a huge part to his decline.

Yeah, when you can't detect HGH it's quite easy to make that claim. Also, I'm not so sure he is using now. I think his numbers speak volumes.

Look at A-Rod. The year that baseball started testing, he hit sub 300 and only hit 30 something homeruns. Then he starts using HGH and he starts hitting above 300 and 50+ HRs. Then he becomes suspected of using and he drops to 30 something HRs again.

If you notice, Teixeira wasn't doing so well, then in one month he starts hitting everything out of the park producing around 15 HRs in the month of May. This wasn't happening while A-Rod was out of town on the DL. It didn't start to change until A-Rod retuned to NY. (even though he was still on the DL for some of it, but he was in NY)

The Roid buddies are back in full swing.
 

YosemiteSam

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JerryAdvocate;2797417 said:
David doesn't look like a juicer
he looks overweight

...and Barry Bonds looked overweight.... :rolleyes: ;) :D

barry_bonds_pirates.jpg

BarryBondsAP_468x631.jpg
 

MC KAos

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i heard a rumor that it might be that he lied about his age as a prospect, and he is really a lot older than he claims
 

SDogo

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MC KAos;2797517 said:
i heard a rumor that it might be that he lied about his age as a prospect, and he is really a lot older than he claims

Very possible
 

Rampage

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MC KAos;2797517 said:
i heard a rumor that it might be that he lied about his age as a prospect, and he is really a lot older than he claims
his eyesight sucks since last season so i wouldn't doubt it.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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Guess the Jury is in.

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http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090730&content_id=6148200&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Ortiz tested positive in '03; Manny named
Papi 'surprised' by test results; Ramirez deflects Times report

By Barry M. Bloom / MLB.com
07/30/09 8:03 PM ET

Boston Red Sox slugger David Ortiz confirmed on Thursday that he tested positive for the use of performance-enhancing drugs, during Major League Baseball's 2003 survey testing season, he said in a statement released by the club.

The report surfaced Thursday morning in a story first published on The New York Times' Web site. According to lawyers who spoke to the Times, and whose names were not revealed, Ortiz and Manny Ramirez are on the list of 104 players who tested positive, testing that was agreed to and conducted only on the condition that the results would remain anonymous.

Ortiz and Ramirez were members of the Red Sox at the time and in 2004 helped the club end an 86-year streak in which they hadn't won a World Series.

"One, I have already contacted the Players Association to confirm if this report is true. I have just been told that the report is true," Ortiz said in his statement. "Based on the way I have lived my life, I am surprised to learn I tested positive. Two, I will find out what I tested positive for. And, three, based on whatever I learn, I will share this information with my club and the public. You know me -- I will not hide and I will not make excuses."

In St. Louis for a series against the Cardinals, Ramirez deflected questions about Thursday's report.

"If you guys want to talk about the game and what happens now, I can sit and talk for two hours. But something happened six years ago, I don't want to talk about that," Ramirez said. "If you want more information, you have the number for the union. Call them."

Ramirez was suspended for 50 games earlier this season for testing positive to what was later reported to be a fertility drug. He apologized to his friends, fans and teammates, didn't contest the suspension, and returned to action on July 3.

Ramirez said Thursday's news would not change his or Ortiz's approach to the game.

"One more thing: me and David are like two mountains," Ramirez said. "We'll still keep doing good, no matter what. That's the way it's going to be. We're going to keep playing the game. We'll try to move forward. That's the key here. We're still going to be doing good. Only God can move those two mountains."

In 2003, 5-to-7 percent of the players tested positive for using performance-enhancing drugs, reaching a threshold that led to the establishment of MLB's current drug policy that includes random testing and was renegotiated three times. In '03, there were no punitive measures and the names were not supposed to be disclosed. Suspensions and/or fines began in '04.

Regarding the '03 results, the Players Association was supposed to destroy the tests, but officers of the federal government -- investigating the case against the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative (BALCO) -- seized them under a warrant from an MLB-approved lab. They are still in government possession and the union continues to contest the seizure with the case at the federal appellate court level.

Previously, the names of Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Jason Grimsley and David Segui were revealed on that list of 104 players. And though the list has been the subject of spirited debate among fans, players and the media about what should be done with the remainder of the names, the tests are supposed to be under court seal and the union again on Thursday said it would fight to maintain that legal privacy.

"Today, The New York Times, once again, reports what it asserts to be information contained in documents under court seal," the union said. "And precisely for that reason, the Players Association will not, indeed cannot, comment on whether the information is accurate. But there should be no mistake. The leaking of information under a court seal is a crime. The active pursuit of information that may not lawfully be disclosed because it is under court seal is a crime. That its informants, according to the Times, are lawyers is both shocking and sad. That the Times is pursuing and publishing what it openly declares to be information which may not be legally disclosed is equally sad.

"We intend to take the appropriate legal steps to see that the court orders are enforced."

Major League Baseball deferred any comments about the remaining names on the list to the union.

"We have no comment because Major League Baseball has no knowledge of the names that are on the list," said MLB vice president of public relations Pat Courtney.

After Thursday's game at Fenway Park -- an 8-5 Boston victory over the A's in which Ortiz hit a three-run homer in the seventh inning to give Boston a 6-5 lead -- Ortiz reiterated what he said in his pregame statement: that he would disclose any information whenever he knows it.

"All I have to say right now is I found out like an hour before the game about the situation and, as you guys know, I never turn my back on you guys," Ortiz said. "I've always been a true guy with you guys. Honestly, right now, I don't have any information about it. I'm going to get more info about the situation and I'm going to honestly tell you guys what's up. Right now, I don't have any answers. I've got no information. The next few days, I'm going to get some information about it."

According to the Times, new information on Ortiz and Ramirez sprang from interviews with persons connected to pending litigation.

Ortiz had been let go by the Twins following the 2002 season, and after signing a one-year, $1.25 million contract with the Red Sox, set personal highs with 31 home runs and 101 RBIs in 2003. Ortiz continued improving on those statistics, compiling 148 RBIs in 2005 and 54 homers the following season.

Unlike Ramirez, Ortiz had never before been connected to performance-enhancing drugs. But his initial handling of the disclosure on Thursday drew praise from Terry Francona, his manager.

"We admire his approach to this, which is, he's not going to run from it, he's not going to hide from it," Francona said after the game. "The first thing he needed to find out was whether he indeed tested positive or not, and he confirmed that this afternoon talking to the union. Now he needs to find out what he tested positive for. He needs some time to get some answers and then he's going to stand up and answer every question. I admire that courage."
 

ABQCOWBOY

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DIAF;2862038 said:
So, Red Sox AND Yankees are a bunch of cheaters.

Who's your team? I guarantee you they are using. There are 106 names onthe list.
 

ajk23az

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I honestly don't even care anymore who's been juicing or not. It wasn't illegal back then, I don't know if it was even frowned upon since everyone did it anyways.

Like Ozzie Guillen said, just let the whole list come out so baseball can start moving past this and we don't have to hear about it every day of the year.
 

MrMom

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Bronson Arroyo, a former Boston Red Sox teammate of Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz, said he would not be surprised to find his name on a list of 104 ballplayers who tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in 2003, after he had heard a then-legal supplement he was using was tainted with steroids, the Boston Herald reported.

Arroyo, now with the Cincinnati Reds, told the Herald he does not know if Ortiz or Ramirez, who were identified in a New York Times story as also being on the list of 104, was taking anything. He said his knowledge of what his teammates did ended at the clubhouse door. But he does not believe their accomplishments should be diminished as a result.


Hall of Famer Peter Gammons says he is starting to think that every champion starting in 1989 has had at least one person that used PEDs in their career. Peter says the reaction in Boston is different because Big Papi is so adored in the community.

"In my mind, I think you have to lump the whole era together," Arroyo said, according to the report. "A lot of people were doing it, a lot weren't. I think pitchers probably gained 3 or 4 mph on their pitches and power hitters got some more power.

"But guys like David and Manny, if they did something, it didn't make them who they were. Did it make them a little better? Probably," Arroyo said, according to the Herald.

Ortiz said on Thursday that he had confirmed through the players' union that he tested positive in 2003. He said the result came as a surprise to him and that he would say more about the subject when he knows more.

Ramirez, who recently served a 50-game suspension for violating the league's drug policy, declined to address The New York Times' report, referring inquiries to the union. Ramirez's specific violation for that ban was never announced, but sources have told ESPN that testing during spring training this year revealed elevated levels of testosterone that had come from an artificial source.


Arroyo, who pitched for the Red Sox from 2003 to 2005, said he took androstenedione, which was banned in 2004, as well as amphetamines, which were banned in 2006, according to the Herald report. He said he gave up taking andro, a steroid precursor, when a rumor spread through baseball that due to lax production standards, some of it was laced with steroids.

Mandatory testing for performance-enhancing drugs in Major League Baseball began in 2004.

"Before 2004, none of us paid any attention to anything we took," he said, according to the Herald. "Now they don't want us to take anything unless it's approved. But back then, who knows what was in stuff? The FDA wasn't regulating stuff, not unless it was killing people or people were dying from it."

Arroyo said he started taking taking andro after 1998, after a season with the Pirates' Double-A affiliate. "Andro made me feel great, I felt like a monster. I felt like I could jump and hit my head on the basketball rim," he said, according to the report.

Arroyo said he is happy the game now has mandatory drug testing, according to the Herald.

"I feel like the game's getting cleared up," he said, according to the report. "Personally, I don't care what people think about what I did. I do what I do."
 

Doomsday

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Honestly at this point I just dont care either way. Steroids dont make you perform in the clutch like he did.

There were and have been a ton of MLB players using steroids since the 80s and then 2006 hits and suddenly the powers at be develop a conscience and want to denegrate the players they knew were jucing. Bascially when no one said nothing and everyone was jacking HRs left and right they said nothing cause it was profitable to look the other way. Then steroids because a taboo subject, so they want to deomonize the same players they were making a killing off a few years prior.

MLB needs to move on, they created the monster that is known as the steroids era.
 
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