Lett and Haley vs. Ratliff and Ware

[TwoCentPlain]

Which is the better combination of the two?

I'm leaning toward Ratliff and Ware.

But, Haley always came up with the big play when it was crunch time.

 

[NoLuv4Jerry]

Which is the better combination of the two?

I'm leaning toward Ratliff and Ware.

But, Haley always came up with the big play when it was crunch time.

Lett, Haley. A guy like Haley would not sit back year after year and game after game and watch a defense he played on give up scoring drives at the ends of halves and games like our guys do. He would put a hole in the wall in the lockeroom, he would get in somebodies face, he would let it be known that kind of poor play was not going to be expected. And they would get results. The guy on this team that does this for Dallas is Bradie James...and he is half the player Haley was....so the results speak for themselves.

 

[YosemiteSam]

There is a lot to be said about a fiery personality. Haley was extremely fiery on the field. Like I said the other day, Ware's biggest flaw is that he doesn't carry that type of fire.

The players can say "he is mean on the field" all they want, but he isn't anything like LT, Haley, Singletary, Ray Lewis, Butkus, etc. Due of that, it is far less likely he will ever be considered an all time great.

All time greats don't disappear for four straight games.

 

[theogt]

Ratliff and Ware, no question.

 

[AdamJT13]

All time greats don't disappear for four straight games.

Ware didn't disappear for four straight games. What were you watching?

 

[burmafrd]

You would be surprised at how many games the great ones did NOT make an impact. So getting down on an INJURED Ware is just plain stupid.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

Ratliff and Ware are definitely a better tandem than Lett and Haley.

History tends to magnify past accomplishments, creating the specious perception that Haley was an unstoppable pass rush force who was never stymied.

In reality, during his five seasonsin Dallas, Haley gathered 34 total sacks.

In just four seasons in Dallas, Ware has gathered 53.5 sacks -- 19.5 more in one fewer season.

Haley had seasons of 6, 4, and 1 sacks. Ware has never had less than 8.

Ratliff and Lett are even less of a contest, in my opinion. As disruptive as Lett was, his drug issue made him unreliable. Ratliff has proved to be completely reliable thus far.

 

[Rampage]

Leon Lett was an absolute beast. Haley made big plays in big games. so far I give the nod to Lett and Haley.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Ratliff and Lett are even less of a contest, in my opinion. As disruptive as Lett was, his drug issue made him unreliable. Ratliff has proved to be completely reliable thus far.

Exactly my thought. At least we can be pretty sure Jay won't get himself suspended for drugs at any random point in the season.

 

[The Realist]

Ware is better than Haley.

Being loud and fiery doesn't make one better.

Revisionist history.

Haley never disappeared for 4 games?

Where was he in the seasons he had 1, 4, 6, 7 and 6.5 sacks?

Pure comedy...

 

[sonnyboy]

Ware and Ratliff and it's not really that close.

I loved Lett. Truely believe he was the best defensive player in football from 1993-1996. Perhaps not for any single year, but for the whole 4 years. He was no slouch in 1992 going off he bench.

He was as close to unblockable as you can get. Same thing for Haley. He at times was also unblockable and had a ton of QB pressures. Not so many sacks, but caused lot of disruption.

But Ware and Ratliff are better. I can't tell you how impressed I am with Ratliff this year.

I don't go back to Lilly. But I can't remember a 5 game stretch that Lett or White caused more havoc.
I think he's on his way to a Defensive MVP year.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Ware didn't disappear for four straight games. What were you watching?

I'm watching you.

I wasn't referring to the fact that he did nothing. He just didn't have a sack and many times was taking well over 5 seconds to get to the QB.

He has played solid. He has made several bad plays too, but overall he is always solid.

...just wasn't getting to the QB which is his primary purpose on 3rd down.

 

[burmafrd]

I would be worried if Ware was 100% but we all know he is not.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Ratliff and Ware are definitely a better tandem than Lett and Haley.

History tends to magnify past accomplishments, creating the specious perception that Haley was an unstoppable pass rush force who was never stymied.

In reality, during his five seasonsin Dallas, Haley gathered 34 total sacks.

In just four seasons in Dallas, Ware has gathered 53.5 sacks -- 19.5 more in one fewer season.

Haley had seasons of 6, 4, and 1 sacks. Ware has never had less than 8.

Ratliff and Lett are even less of a contest, in my opinion. As disruptive as Lett was, his drug issue made him unreliable. Ratliff has proved to be completely reliable thus far.

Haley didn't always get the sack, but take a look at his QB pressures. He didn't always get the sack, but he caused tons of sacks and INTs by forcing the QB into Tolbert, Jones, Lett, etc or hurried throws.

I'm guessing you weren't paying a lot of attention to the Cowboys back then, as this was a well known fact by the fans back in the day.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Ware is better than Haley.

Being loud and fiery doesn't make one better.

Revisionist history.

Haley never disappeared for 4 games?

Where was he in the seasons he had 1, 4, 6, 7 and 6.5 sacks?

Pure comedy...

I guess you weren't around during those years. What Haley did didn't always show up as sacks, take a gander at his QB pressures. It is extremely lopsided. Haley was the epitome of the term beast. Jerry Jones said Haley was the missing piece that led to the three Superbowls. That is very much true. Without Haley, the Cowboys didn't have a ton of pressure on the QB. Haley was the catalyst.

 

[burmafrd]

pressures are like tackles- no two sources agree. And I have watched the Cowboys since 1971 and as regards DE Harvey Martin was the best I have ever seen. Haley was a difference maker, but as regards rushing the passer ware has been much more consistent.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

Haley didn't always get the sack, but take a look at his QB pressures. He didn't always get the sack, but he caused tons of sacks by forcing the QB into Tolbert, Jones, Lett, etc.

I'm guessing you weren't paying a lot of attention to the Cowboys back then, as this was a well known fact by the fans back in the day.

Since you were paying so much more attention than anyone of us back then, you should have no problem providing a statistical comparison of the pressures applied by Haley versus the pressures applied by Ware.

I await your analysis with great anticipation.

 

[sonnyboy]

A thought came to me when I was making my last post that I haven't had in 30 years following the Cowboys.

Jones should rip up Ratliff's contract. I mean just rip it up. This isn't the best thing for the team because it'll mean less cap dollars for everyone else.

But I think it's warranted.

Don't know the specifics of his last deal (maybe Adam can help), but I know we got a huge bargin.

Jone should just add 2-3 million a season to whatever he's scheduled to make over the remaing years of his deal.
And not even ask for an extension. Just give the guy the money on merit alone. He's so underpaid now, it'd still be a bargin and foster a tremdous amount of good will.

Not just with Ratliff, but amoung the rest of the team. See what happens guys, you bust it and play your *** off and we'll take care of you.

 

[JohnsKey19]

From a pure talent standpoint, there's no doubt Lett was better than Ratliff. Leon's problem was that his motor was not consistent and of course the obvious drug problems. Ratliff's biggest asset arguably is his motor. And with him you dont have to worry about his behavior. So in terms of overall package, Ratliff gets the nod. But Leon had the ability to dominate opponents in a way Ratliff probably never will.

Ware/Haley is probably a wash if both are graded as DEs. Ware's obvious advantage is he can drop back into coverage fairly well and probably has more range than Haley.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Since you were paying so much more attention than anyone of us back then, you should have no problem providing a statistical comparison of the pressures applied by Haley versus the pressures applied by Ware.

I await your analysis with great anticipation.

You mean like the way Haley had 10 1/2 sacks and 33 pressures in 13 games during the 1995 season while playing with a back injury that required surgery?

That totals to what? 43 1/2 pressures/sacks in only 13 games?

Ware had his best sack season last season with 20 sacks and 20 pressures. 20 + 20 = 40 / 16 games = 2.5 pressure/sacks per game. His best pressure season was the season before when he had 27 pressures with 14 sacks. (41 sack/pressure total)

Haley averaged 3.34 sacks/pressures a game WITH a season long back injury.

Haley had more sack / pressures in a single season in 3 less games that Ware.

I'm not hating on Ware, (he is my favorite player and I own his jersey) I'm just saying you guys are foolish if you think Ware is better than Haley because of stupid sack totals.