Making a Murderer

Tabascocat

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Has anyone else watched this documentary on Netflix? It is 10 episodes revolving around Steven Avery from his first(false) imprisonment to his latest(unrelated) prison term.

Just interested in others opinions on this such as:

1. was he really guilty?
2. did he get a fair trial?
3. was his nephew involved at all?
4. did the police plant evidence to frame him?
5. were we not shown everything in the trial(evidence) to make us feel sorry for Avery?

I can't believe that I have never heard of this story at all. I watched the first episode and was hooked! Binged watched the rest.
 

EST_1986

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Loved that series. I'm torn between him being innocent just based on how they framed it in the show and him actually doing it based on the actual evidence.

Something does seem screwy with how all that went down after he was suing the county.
 

Dodger12

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http://thefederalist.com/2016/01/06/making-a-murderer-subject-steven-avery-is-guilty-as-hell/

Here are the key points from the linked article that were left out of the "documentary":
  • Parts of Halbach’s body were found burned in Avery’s fire pit.
  • Evidence of Avery’s involvement was found inside his home.
  • There is DNA evidence tying the bullet found in the Avery garage to Halbach.
  • Avery was the last known person to see Halbach alive.
  • Police found her car, with blood on it and in it, left on the Avery family’s lot.
  • Avery’s high-school age cousin, Brendan Dassey, confessed that he had assisted his uncle in murder of Halbach.*
Now, to believe Avery is innocent, a person must believe that an implausible number of conspiracies had been unfurled in the case: for starters, the placing of the car, the blood, the body, the keys, and all other evidence. The cover up would have included two DAs and a large group of cops in two police departments. And while it’s not improbable that some of those involved might be morally capable of setting up Avery, Dean Strang and Jerome Buting offered no evidence that anyone had done so, only accusations.

But beyond all that, here are just a few items that the producers of “Making a Murderer” decided to leave out that make the case less riveting and Avery more sympathetic:

— Not only was the bullet found in the garage linked to Halbach’s DNA, but it was forensically tied to Avery’s gun as well. Seems like a pertinent thing for viewers to know. To believe Avery was innocent, you now have to believe that forensics specialists were in on the frame-up and lied about both the DNA and gun, or messed up both tests.

— The criminal complaint claimed that authorities had found restraints — handcuffs and leg irons — at Avery’s residence. In 2006, Avery admitted to buying them so he could use them on his then-girlfriend. This alone doesn’t mean Avery is the killer of course, but it does lend credence to the description offered by Dassey and the police. We heard nothing about this during the show.

— The infamous car key that was found in Avery’s residence had DNA of his sweat on it. So not only are we asked to believe the Manitowoc police department planted the keys in his trailer (and that the neighboring police force was either incompetent or complicit in the deception), but also that somehow the cops had extracted Avery’s perspiration and put it on the key. Another explanation might be that Avery handled the keys when dealing with Halbach, although he denies having ever seen them.

Which bring up additional question: If Avery’s defenders are convinced that DNA from one pubic hair completely exonerates him in the rape case, why does DNA evidence in this case not prove his guilt?

Avery not only called Auto Trader and specifically requested Halbach to take pictures the day she was killed, but he also gave a false name when he did so. Why? And why would he, and the documentarians, fail to mention it? Avery then called Halbach’s cell phone three times the day she died, twice using *67 to obscure his identity. None of this proves his guilt, but all of these actions undermine the defense’s contention that Halbach was just someone that happened to come by that day for a job. It sounds like he wanted her to come by. None of this is mentioned in the documentary.

— Not only was Avery’s blood — which we’re supposed to believe was planted by the police after being extracted from an evidence room — found in six places on Halbach’s vehicle, but DNA from his sweat was also found on a hood latch. How did it get there? Did the police have a vial of perspiration ready to go the day of the murder?

— You’d also have to be gullible to believe that Avery was merely a flawed, but good-hearted victim of unfortunate circumstance once you learn more about his history. According to an Appleton Post Crescent article from 2006, Avery planned the fantasy torture and killing of a young woman while in prison. According to Ken Kratz at least, Avery also drew up plans for torture chambers while in prison. True? We don’t know. The documentary never mentions (or disproves) any of these accusations.

The young Avery didn’t unintentionally set fire to a cat, as “Making a Murderer” suggests, but poured gasoline on the animal and then threw it into a bonfire, according the Associated Press. And Avery didn’t only threaten a female cousin at gunpoint, an incident the documentary portrays as the unfortunate actions of an immature teen, but is also alleged to have raped a young girl and threatened to kill her family if they spoke out, according another story in Post Crescent (paywalled). If we’re to believe Dassey’s conversations with police, Avery had also molested his cousins. “I even told them about Steven touching me,” Dassey explains to his mother after one of the interviews with police.

Now, we don’t know if all or any of these accusations are true. But we do know that the documentary didn’t offer viewers the full picture of Avery’s purported behavior and ugly proclivities. Yet, the same filmmakers had no problem bringing up Kratz’s sexting scandal and other unpleasant tidbits about the prosecution and police, though they had nothing to do with the case itself.

Why would Avery leave the keys in his room? Why would he leave the vehicle in his lot? Who would be that stupid? He had to be set up. I hear this defense often. Well, maybe Avery is not very bright. Maybe Avery didn’t have time to rid himself of the evidence. Who cares? Whether he was smart enough to mastermind a murder or whether he once faced an injustice of the system, doesn’t change the facts of this case. Maybe if I was on the jury I would see things differently. My judgement is made solely on the evidence available to me as a viewer. Maybe we’ll hear new evidence moving forward that changes all of this, but “Making a Murderer,” much like “Serial” before it, is a work of advocacy journalism.

I’m not sure there is anything wrong with advocacy, as this is still a compelling look at the families of the victims and suspects and their experience in the American justice system, but we shouldn’t pretend that it’s something else.

*For me the matter of Dassey’s confession was the most problematic part of the case. The police interviews with him were almost unwatchable at times. The detectives’ questioning of Dassey (and describing what they did as “questioning” is far too charitable) without an attorney or family member present, despite the kid’s obviously low IQ, was abuse. Kratz’s press conference misrepresenting the tenor and outcome of that confession was nothing more than a lie. Yet, it needs to be pointed out that Dassey’s confession was far more specific than his other stories and comported with evidence that turned up
 

Dodger12

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There's some compelling evidence that certainly points to his guilt and while there may have been misconduct on the part of law enforcement (from what folks are saying), I don't believe that multiple officers from multiple departments would all agree to frame someone who would end up in prison for probably the remainder of their natural life.

There's certainly two sides to every story but the more you read about this guy Avery, the more you realize he's a demented individual and it's a shame that the media is making this guy out to be some martyr of the criminal justice system.
 

DogFace

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http://thefederalist.com/2016/01/06/making-a-murderer-subject-steven-avery-is-guilty-as-hell/

Here are the key points from the linked article that were left out of the "documentary":
  • Parts of Halbach’s body were found burned in Avery’s fire pit.
  • Evidence of Avery’s involvement was found inside his home.
  • There is DNA evidence tying the bullet found in the Avery garage to Halbach.
  • Avery was the last known person to see Halbach alive.
  • Police found her car, with blood on it and in it, left on the Avery family’s lot.
  • Avery’s high-school age cousin, Brendan Dassey, confessed that he had assisted his uncle in murder of Halbach.*
Now, to believe Avery is innocent, a person must believe that an implausible number of conspiracies had been unfurled in the case: for starters, the placing of the car, the blood, the body, the keys, and all other evidence. The cover up would have included two DAs and a large group of cops in two police departments. And while it’s not improbable that some of those involved might be morally capable of setting up Avery, Dean Strang and Jerome Buting offered no evidence that anyone had done so, only accusations.

But beyond all that, here are just a few items that the producers of “Making a Murderer” decided to leave out that make the case less riveting and Avery more sympathetic:

— Not only was the bullet found in the garage linked to Halbach’s DNA, but it was forensically tied to Avery’s gun as well. Seems like a pertinent thing for viewers to know. To believe Avery was innocent, you now have to believe that forensics specialists were in on the frame-up and lied about both the DNA and gun, or messed up both tests.

— The criminal complaint claimed that authorities had found restraints — handcuffs and leg irons — at Avery’s residence. In 2006, Avery admitted to buying them so he could use them on his then-girlfriend. This alone doesn’t mean Avery is the killer of course, but it does lend credence to the description offered by Dassey and the police. We heard nothing about this during the show.

— The infamous car key that was found in Avery’s residence had DNA of his sweat on it. So not only are we asked to believe the Manitowoc police department planted the keys in his trailer (and that the neighboring police force was either incompetent or complicit in the deception), but also that somehow the cops had extracted Avery’s perspiration and put it on the key. Another explanation might be that Avery handled the keys when dealing with Halbach, although he denies having ever seen them.

Which bring up additional question: If Avery’s defenders are convinced that DNA from one pubic hair completely exonerates him in the rape case, why does DNA evidence in this case not prove his guilt?

Avery not only called Auto Trader and specifically requested Halbach to take pictures the day she was killed, but he also gave a false name when he did so. Why? And why would he, and the documentarians, fail to mention it? Avery then called Halbach’s cell phone three times the day she died, twice using *67 to obscure his identity. None of this proves his guilt, but all of these actions undermine the defense’s contention that Halbach was just someone that happened to come by that day for a job. It sounds like he wanted her to come by. None of this is mentioned in the documentary.

— Not only was Avery’s blood — which we’re supposed to believe was planted by the police after being extracted from an evidence room — found in six places on Halbach’s vehicle, but DNA from his sweat was also found on a hood latch. How did it get there? Did the police have a vial of perspiration ready to go the day of the murder?

— You’d also have to be gullible to believe that Avery was merely a flawed, but good-hearted victim of unfortunate circumstance once you learn more about his history. According to an Appleton Post Crescent article from 2006, Avery planned the fantasy torture and killing of a young woman while in prison. According to Ken Kratz at least, Avery also drew up plans for torture chambers while in prison. True? We don’t know. The documentary never mentions (or disproves) any of these accusations.

The young Avery didn’t unintentionally set fire to a cat, as “Making a Murderer” suggests, but poured gasoline on the animal and then threw it into a bonfire, according the Associated Press. And Avery didn’t only threaten a female cousin at gunpoint, an incident the documentary portrays as the unfortunate actions of an immature teen, but is also alleged to have raped a young girl and threatened to kill her family if they spoke out, according another story in Post Crescent (paywalled). If we’re to believe Dassey’s conversations with police, Avery had also molested his cousins. “I even told them about Steven touching me,” Dassey explains to his mother after one of the interviews with police.

Now, we don’t know if all or any of these accusations are true. But we do know that the documentary didn’t offer viewers the full picture of Avery’s purported behavior and ugly proclivities. Yet, the same filmmakers had no problem bringing up Kratz’s sexting scandal and other unpleasant tidbits about the prosecution and police, though they had nothing to do with the case itself.

Why would Avery leave the keys in his room? Why would he leave the vehicle in his lot? Who would be that stupid? He had to be set up. I hear this defense often. Well, maybe Avery is not very bright. Maybe Avery didn’t have time to rid himself of the evidence. Who cares? Whether he was smart enough to mastermind a murder or whether he once faced an injustice of the system, doesn’t change the facts of this case. Maybe if I was on the jury I would see things differently. My judgement is made solely on the evidence available to me as a viewer. Maybe we’ll hear new evidence moving forward that changes all of this, but “Making a Murderer,” much like “Serial” before it, is a work of advocacy journalism.

I’m not sure there is anything wrong with advocacy, as this is still a compelling look at the families of the victims and suspects and their experience in the American justice system, but we shouldn’t pretend that it’s something else.

*For me the matter of Dassey’s confession was the most problematic part of the case. The police interviews with him were almost unwatchable at times. The detectives’ questioning of Dassey (and describing what they did as “questioning” is far too charitable) without an attorney or family member present, despite the kid’s obviously low IQ, was abuse. Kratz’s press conference misrepresenting the tenor and outcome of that confession was nothing more than a lie. Yet, it needs to be pointed out that Dassey’s confession was far more specific than his other stories and comported with evidence that turned up

That was all In the documentary.
 

EST_1986

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I get the feeling that maybe he did it but law enforcement added to it as well to make sure he went down but on the other hand a man set to potentially receiving multi millions of dollars why would he risk it?
 

Dodger12

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That was all In the documentary.

I haven't seen it nor do I intend to see it but just going on what folks who have seen it are saying that was left out.

http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movie...-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php

There was clearly some shady **** here, but I snooped around in various Reddit threads and through some local news reports and found a few pieces of evidence not presented in the docuseries that persuade me that Avery was probably guilty. Some of this was presented at trial, while some of it was excluded in pre-trial motions.

Here's what I found.

-- The documentary said that part of Avery's criminal past included animal cruelty. To my recollection, it didn't specify exactly what that animal cruelty was. I know that for some of our readers, knowing is enough to want to see Avery get the death sentence regardless of whether he murdered Halbach: He doused a cat in oil and threw it on a bonfire (this is not relevant to the murder trial, but it certainly diminishes the sympathy some of us felt for him).

-- Past criminal activity also included threatening a female relative at gunpoint.

-- In the months leading up to Halbach's disappearance, Avery had called Auto Trader several times and always specifically requested Halbach to come out and take the photos.

-- Halbach had complained to her boss that she didn't want to go out to Avery's trailer anymore, because once when she came out, Avery was waiting for her wearing only a towel (this was excluded for being too inflammatory). Avery clearly had an obsession with Halbach.

-- On the day that Halbach went missing, Avery had called her three times, twice from a *67 number to hide his identity.

-- The bullet with Halbach's DNA on it came from Avery's gun, which always hung above his bed.

-- Avery had purchased handcuffs and leg irons like the ones Dassey described holding Halbach only three weeks before (Avery said he's purchased them for use with his girlfriend, Jodi, with whom he'd had a tumultuous relationship -- at one point, he was ordered by police to stay away from her for three days).

-- Here's the piece of evidence that was presented at trial but not in the series that I find most convincing: In Dassey's illegally obtained statement, Dassey stated that he helped Avery moved the RAV4 into the junkyard and that Avery had lifted the hood and removed the battery cable. Even if you believe that the blood in Halbach's car was planted by the cops (as I do), there was also non-blood DNA evidence on the hood latch. I don't believe the police would plant -- or know to plant -- that evidence.
 

DogFace

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I haven't seen it nor do I intend to see it but just going on what folks who have seen it are saying that was left out.

http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movie...-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php

There was clearly some shady **** here, but I snooped around in various Reddit threads and through some local news reports and found a few pieces of evidence not presented in the docuseries that persuade me that Avery was probably guilty. Some of this was presented at trial, while some of it was excluded in pre-trial motions.

Here's what I found.

-- The documentary said that part of Avery's criminal past included animal cruelty. To my recollection, it didn't specify exactly what that animal cruelty was. I know that for some of our readers, knowing is enough to want to see Avery get the death sentence regardless of whether he murdered Halbach: He doused a cat in oil and threw it on a bonfire (this is not relevant to the murder trial, but it certainly diminishes the sympathy some of us felt for him).

-- Past criminal activity also included threatening a female relative at gunpoint.

-- In the months leading up to Halbach's disappearance, Avery had called Auto Trader several times and always specifically requested Halbach to come out and take the photos.

-- Halbach had complained to her boss that she didn't want to go out to Avery's trailer anymore, because once when she came out, Avery was waiting for her wearing only a towel (this was excluded for being too inflammatory). Avery clearly had an obsession with Halbach.

-- On the day that Halbach went missing, Avery had called her three times, twice from a *67 number to hide his identity.

-- The bullet with Halbach's DNA on it came from Avery's gun, which always hung above his bed.

-- Avery had purchased handcuffs and leg irons like the ones Dassey described holding Halbach only three weeks before (Avery said he's purchased them for use with his girlfriend, Jodi, with whom he'd had a tumultuous relationship -- at one point, he was ordered by police to stay away from her for three days).

-- Here's the piece of evidence that was presented at trial but not in the series that I find most convincing: In Dassey's illegally obtained statement, Dassey stated that he helped Avery moved the RAV4 into the junkyard and that Avery had lifted the hood and removed the battery cable. Even if you believe that the blood in Halbach's car was planted by the cops (as I do), there was also non-blood DNA evidence on the hood latch. I don't believe the police would plant -- or know to plant -- that evidence.

Any and all of Dassey's statements were obtained through torturous leading of a very low IQ dull boy.

If the police did move the car and planted other dna the hood latch isn't a stretch.

Even a not so bright man like him would've used the car crusher rather than a few tree branches to hide the car.

If they planted any other evidence it wouldn't be hard to shoot a corpse and plant it. Possibly the reason the bullett wasn't found until days or weeks (can't remember) after the investigation started and long after the garage was already searched "thouroughly" by other detectives. It was only found two after Klink was there when he mysteriously didn't sign in.


They weren't clear the cat died. Regardless that is deplorable behavior.

This show is more about how poor people don't get even close to a fair shot in dealing with the law. As is the case in many other areas compared to affluent people. They rarely get to plead affluenza after killing four people. Allowing them to walk free.
 

Dallas_Cowboys50

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whether he did it or not, Avery's biggest mistake was not hightailing it outta Wisconsin once he was released the first time.....I know, I know, if he's a murderer he potentially would of just murdered someone else wherever he moved to bla bla bla....but who knows? All I know is it was me, Id be so ticked off at that state I wouldnt wanna step foot there ever again, much less the same stinkin county!....Im as proud of Texas as any other Texan, but if my beloved home state ever wrongly jailed me for 18 years it sure as shootin wouldnt be beloved anymore!!
 

mattjames2010

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Did people really need a 10 hour mini-series to tell them our justice system can be flawed and at times corrupt? You'd think, by now, The Innocence Project has highlighted this stuff enough.
 

JoeKing

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One sided propaganda designed to bias public opinion. Without any attempt what-so-ever to present the other side, that's all I can say about this "documentary".
 

Dodger12

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Any and all of Dassey's statements were obtained through torturous leading of a very low IQ dull boy.

If the police did move the car and planted other dna the hood latch isn't a stretch.

Even a not so bright man like him would've used the car crusher rather than a few tree branches to hide the car.

If they planted any other evidence it wouldn't be hard to shoot a corpse and plant it. Possibly the reason the bullett wasn't found until days or weeks (can't remember) after the investigation started and long after the garage was already searched "thouroughly" by other detectives. It was only found two after Klink was there when he mysteriously didn't sign in.


They weren't clear the cat died. Regardless that is deplorable behavior.

This show is more about how poor people don't get even close to a fair shot in dealing with the law. As is the case in many other areas compared to affluent people. They rarely get to plead affluenza after killing four people. Allowing them to walk free.

And where would they get the sweat DNA to plant on the hood? Also, they were lead to the hood by statements made by Dassey who even admitted to his mother that he and Avery committed the murder.

Like I said earlier, I'm not going to watch the documentary. While the CJ system is far from perfect, I'm just not going to be convinced that this psycho is innocent based on a far fetched conspiracy theory which would have required the complicity of multiple law enforcement officers and departments. Now, if you think people went to such extremes as to shoot a corpse and plant it, then you're on your own in this conversation.

A mob lawyer once said "three people keep a secret best when two are dead." Truer words were never spoken. You keep looking for the guy in the grassy knoll, Nicole Simpson's killer and this young lady's killer. That's the real flaw in the CJ system.
 

65fastback2plus2

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Like I said earlier, I'm not going to watch the documentary. While the CJ system is far from perfect, I'm just not going to be convinced that this psycho is innocent based on a far fetched conspiracy theory which would have required the complicity of multiple law enforcement officers and departments. Now, if you think people went to such extremes as to shoot a corpse and plant it, then you're on your own in this conversation.

I love it "Im just not going to be convinced that this psycho is innocent based on..."....Thats what everyone said for 18 years too...then he was freed because he was innocent lol
 

65fastback2plus2

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One sided propaganda designed to bias public opinion. Without any attempt what-so-ever to present the other side, that's all I can say about this "documentary".

It actually presents both sides very candidly. I think you're actually missing the point...the documentary is not about guilty or innocent per say....its about the justice system and "beyond a reasonable doubt". And its not just really about this case.

Take a read: http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-justice-are-not-at-all-rare?CMP=share_btn_tw

Some high points to note in the article

" between 2 and 8% of all those who have pled guilty are actually innocent. Projected out over the United States’s two million prisoners, that is a massive number."

"According to the National Registry of Exonerations, 47 of the 125 criminal exonerations in 2014 involved defendants who had originally pleaded guilty. That’s over 37% of them."

" In 2012, “researchers became aware of more than 1,100 other cases in which convictions were overturned due to 13 separate police corruption scandals, most of which involved the planting of drugs or guns on innocent defendants”."

In fact, you proclaiming him assuredly guilty is one of the major points of the documentary and why you fail as a citizen. There was not "beyond a reasonable doubt" but rather hundreds of doubts.
 

65fastback2plus2

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Did people really need a 10 hour mini-series to tell them our justice system can be flawed and at times corrupt? You'd think, by now, The Innocence Project has highlighted this stuff enough.

I think it was more the fact it happened to someone....TWICE that jolted people's minds. I knew it happened but it hit me square inbetween the eyes happening twice.

In fact, per the above facts I posted in the previous post...theres 10's of thousands of innocent people in jail. Im literally sickened.
 

Dodger12

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I love it "Im just not going to be convinced that this psycho is innocent based on..."....Thats what everyone said for 18 years too...then he was freed because he was innocent lol

Yes, of course. And OJ didn't kill his wife and Ron Goldman, DNA evidence be damned in that case as well. You can choose to believe what you want but I'm not that naive or anti-establishment to support these folks as martyrs of the system.
 

65fastback2plus2

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Yes, of course. And OJ didn't kill his wife and Ron Goldman, DNA evidence be damned in that case as well. You can choose to believe what you want but I'm not that naive or anti-establishment to support these folks as martyrs of the system.

A) Police had Avery DNA that was tampered with.
B) The vehicle blood swap test, by protocol, was to be labeled "inconclusive" because it was contaminated.

Thats some hardcore DNA evidence there...
 

Dodger12

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A) Police had Avery DNA that was tampered with.
B) The vehicle blood swap test, by protocol, was to be labeled "inconclusive" because it was contaminated.

Thats some hardcore DNA evidence there...

And the bullet found that matched his rifle, along with the statements made by his accomplice (to his own mother) along with finding her body in his fire pit along with him calling her employer and asking for her by name, etc. You can believe the system is flawed and I would agree with you on many points but this guy is not my poster child.
 
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