Mcginn/scouts on CB and S in 2023 draft

locked&loaded

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,609
Reaction score
960
Eleven of the top 30 corners, including seven of the top 10, ran 40 yards in less than 4.4 seconds either at the combine or pro days. Last year, a mere two of the top 30 broke 4.4.

Not one of the evaluators interviewed for this series made a big deal about the speed factor. NFL people lock in on business at hand. All those 4.3s, even 4.2s written on the cards of the cornerbacks on their draft-room wall tend to blend in after a while as deliberations go on and on.

...determining a 40 time for each player.

First, I disregard the electronic times at the combine. Electronic timing isn’t available at most pro days, and trying to compare electronic times with hand-held times is inappropriate.

At the combine, two designated scouts with stopwatches are seated at the finish line of the 40, and immediately their times are recorded by the combine staff. Working from those numbers, I average the times of a player’s first 40, the average of his second 40 (most run two) and then average the two averages for the number that I assign for posterity. If a player runs a 40 or two at a pro day, I’ll average those as best I can with his averages at the combine.

...I’ve used this system for about 20 years. Before that, I went with the fastest of the two hand-held times either at the combine or pro day.

Good or bad, my formula for 40 times has been consistent for a long time.

...It wasn’t just speed this year, either. Seven of the top 30 went 11-0 or more in the broad jump whereas five went 40 inches or higher in the vertical jump. Both drills are reflections of speed as well as explosiveness.

Last spring, the only top-30 corners with sub-4.4 speed were UTSA’s Tariq Woolen (4.26) and Baylor’s Kalon Barnes (4.27). There were eight top-30 corners under 4.4 in. 2021, two in 2020, four in 2019 and four in 2018.

...“In the NFL of today, if you’re a corner and you’re not 4.45 on down, you can’t run,” one personnel man said. “The success rate of 4.55 corners is minimal.”

My poll of 16 evaluators asked them to rank the corners 1-2-3-4-5, with a first-place vote worth 5 points, a second-place worth 4 points and so on. It’s worth noting that 164 of the 240 possible points, or 68.3%, went to corners that ran under 4.4.

Christian Gonzalez led with nine firsts and 70 points. Following, in order, were Devon Witherspoon (67, six), Joey Porter (30, one), Deonte Banks (24 ½), Emmanuel Forbes (20), DJ Turner (nine), Cam Smith (6 ½), Garrett Williams (four), Julius Brents (three), Kelee Ringo (three), Clark Phillips (two) and Darius Rush (one).

As much as scouts admire the group as a whole, they were hesitant to label any one player as elite. The current young players most commonly referred to as falling in that category were Sauce Gardner (6-2 ½, 193, 4.46) and Patrick Surtain II (6-2, 208, 4.42).

Of the corners as a whole, another executive said, “There are probably 12 to 15 guys that can come in and at least be a No. 3 corner in the first year. Eight or so of those could be good No. 2’s. Probably be four to six in the first round.”

Meanwhile, it appears this will be the third draft in the past four years in which no safety has been taken in Round 1.

“This is unbelievable how bad this is,” one scout said. “(Brian) Branch, (Antonio) Johnson and then it’s kind of a free-for-all. It falls quick.”

Branch dominated the 16-scout poll with 13 firsts and 74 points, yet he is considered an underdog for the first round.

The rest of the vote was Johnson (39, one), Quan Martin (28), Sydney Brown (25, one), Jordan Battle (20, one), Jammie Robinson (17), Ji'ayir Brown (12), Jay Ward (seven), JL Skinner (five), Ronnie Hickman (four), Gervarrius Owens (four), Christopher Smith (three) and DeMarcco Hellams (two).
 

locked&loaded

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,609
Reaction score
960
3. JOEY PORTER, Penn State (6-2 ½, 196, 4.41, 1): Played four games in 2019, preserving his redshirt season, before starting three years on the outside and declaring a year early. “Enigma,” said one scout. “He’s one of these guys that you would hope would be a better pro than he was in college. He’s got all the height-weight-speed you want to be in a first-round corner but his instincts are off. They tried him at nickel; it was an experiment that went awry. He’s an outside corner until further notice. He’s fast, he can turn and run, he can stay in phase, he can run with anybody on a 9-route. But don’t ask him to play off cover and get out of his backpedal with good quickness to close on the football. His value is as a press-trail corner. If you’re drafting him to line up with the other team’s biggest, fastest receiver in press-trail, sure. But eventually they’ll figure him out and force him into situations where he’s going to be uncomfortable. How many interceptions did he have in his career? One. He’s just a naturally timid kid to begin with. I’m not questioning his toughness. I’m questioning his willingness to have a pro mindset prepared to be great. He’ll tackle. He’s not a coward. He’s somewhere in-between.” Finished with 114 tackles (two for loss) and 21 PBUs. “We didn’t like him,” a second scout said. “He’s soft.” Wonderlic of 15. His arm length (34 inches) was the longest at the position. “He’s a 6-2 guy that’s super-fast,” a third scout said. “Good man coverage. Long arms. Not as sticky in coverage as the top guys.” His father, Joey Sr., registered 98 sacks and made four Pro Bowls as a 13-year NFL edge rusher. He coached the Steelers’ linebackers from 2014-’18. “He grew up the son of an NFL player and never wanted for anything,” a fourth scout said. “He’s a good kid but he doesn’t really have a great work ethic or passion for the game. You could really hit on him and you could really bust on him.” From Bakersfield, Calif. “Last year, lot of PI’s (pass-interference penalties),” a fifth scout said. “Little bit rigid and stiff. He’s got to be scheme-specific in terms of press man. I’m lukewarm on him.”

4. DEONTE BANKS, Maryland (6-0, 200, 4.31, 1): Started 21 of 30 games over four years. “Talented guy,” one scout said. “He’s got all the height-weight-speed. The problem with him is, when his back’s turned to the ball, can he find it? That’s his biggest issue. He’s a tough kid; he’ll tackle you. It’s just his natural instincts for the position. Not quite as productive on the ball as you would like.” Just two interceptions to go with 83 tackles and 13 PBUs. “He’s got incredible upside,” said a second scout. “He’s No. 1 or No. 2 in all the athletic testing. He does not have natural ball skills. He’s a developmental upside player you roll the dice on. It’s going to take a little time. I’d say halfway through the first season he’s a starter.” His vertical jump of 42 inches led the position. “That Ohio State game (Nov. 19), man, he was, like, ‘This is my game,’” said a third scout. “He went against (Marvin) Harrison Jr. and those guys and he was good. He talked **** to those guys. The whole game. He can press and run. In run support he’s strong. He can hold up against big wideouts. He just gets a little grabby downfield some but, when he’s locked in, he’s a top-10 talent.” Fourth-year junior with a Wonderlic of 18. “He is mentally raw,” a fourth scout said. “He didn’t play hardly at all in 2021 (out 11 games, shoulder surgery). He’ll be fine. It’s just he may go through some growing pains at first because he’s raw.” From Baltimore.

5. EMMANUEL FORBES, Mississippi State (6-0 ½, 170, 4.38, 1-2): Third-year junior, three-year starter at LC. “I’m a Forbes man,” one scout said. “He’s so skinny and narrow. That body type is just not super conducive. But he has incredible ball skills. He is a ball magnet. It just finds him. He tries to (tackle). In the Georgia game, there was one time he stuck his nose in there and he looked like somebody getting thrown out of a saloon. He got literally ejected out of a pile. At least he tried.” Returned six of his 14 picks for TDs, an FBS record. “Very, very similar to Witherspoon,” a second scout said. “He’s quick, sudden and a loose athlete. He can mirror guys as well. He’s got a second gear.” Weighed 166 at the combine, 170 at pro day. “Because he’s only 166 and has such an unusual body type he’s a little under the radar,” a third scout said. “But he’s got incredible length (32 ¼ arms) and ball skills and instincts. He plays hard, but who’s been a 166-pound corner that’s held up? They’re going to make you tackle.” Finished with 149 tackles and 35 PBUs. Wonderlic of 18. “There’s a lot of buzz with him,” a fourth scout said. “He’s OK, but I don’t think he’s a first-rounder. He’s skinny as ****. Those guys don’t work. They don’t work.” From Grenada, Miss.

6. DJ TURNER, Michigan (5-11, 179, 4.26, 1-2): Fastest man at the combine. “He’s a cover guy,” one scout said. “He’s not strong in run support and he needs to get stronger in contested catch situations. But, boy, he can recover if someone gets a step on him.” Limited to four games as a freshman due to a glute injury. Barely played in 2020, then became a starter in mid-2021. “Even when he’s beat he has the recovery speed to get back into phase,” said a second scout. “Just struggles at the top of routes. Willing tackler, but his lack of size shows when wrapping up.” Finished with 69 tackles, three picks and 20 PBUs. “He might be the best of the group,” a third scout said. “He’s probably the most fluid guy in the draft. I thought he was a good tackler for his size.” From Suwanee, Ga. “He was disappointing,” a fourth scout aid. “He’s a good athlete but he gets beat all the time. Looks like he’s just kind of out there. In the TCU (playoff) game he whiffed on that big tackle (on Quentin Johnston’s 76-yard touchdown reception). More an athlete than a player. Plays small.”
 

locked&loaded

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,609
Reaction score
960
SAFETIES
1. BRIAN BRANCH, Alabama (5-11 ½, 192, 4.55, 1-2): Played the star position for Nick Saban that Minkah Fitzpatrick manned with aplomb from 2015-’17. “Is he a safety or a nickel?” one scout said. “Is he too slow for nickel, and can he communicate to be a safety? That’s got to be the key. He’s a great football player but he has a few warts on him. He can’t cover for very long (from the slot). That (directing a secondary) is his bugaboo. He’s a great tackler, not a good one. He’s 4.6 for us, but damn can he play football.” Scored 15 on the Wonderlic. “He’s probably the best safety,” said a second scout. “He played that star position in Nick’s defense, which is very tough to play. He’s kind of like a nick (nickel).” A 5-star recruit, he essentially started for three seasons before declaring a year early. “He’s one of those guys that is a better football player than tester,” a third scout said. “He doesn’t fit the profile of an elite athlete because his numbers are pretty pedestrian. But the thing that sets him apart is just the instincts. His movements are much more decisive when he’s on the field. He sees things quicker.” Finished with 172 tackles (19 ½ for loss), four sacks, four picks and 27 PBUs. “He can be a safety much like (Antoine) Winfield,” said a fourth scout. “Kind of that hybrid down safety. More of a short-to-intermediate zone robber. Can match up with some slots. Good in the run game. But I see him as a starting nickel.” From Fayetteville, Ga.

2. QUAN MARTIN, Illinois (5-11, 194, 4.42, 2-3): Started 36 games over five seasons in a secondary that included safeties Kerby Joseph (Lions) and Sydney Brown plus cornerback Devon Witherspoon. Most of his action came as the star defender. “I would take Kerby over this guy because Kerby was bigger,” said one scout. “He can do more than Kerby. Kerby was a rangy dude back there. (Martin) is an undersized, smooth-moving safety. Can play some nickel. Has a chance to be a starter. Lacks some size and strength in press situations. Will give up separation at the top of routes against more physical receivers. There’s upside with him.” Finished with 222 tackles (10 for loss), seven picks and 30 PBUs. “He was their nick but everybody projects him as a free safety like they’re doing with Branch,” said a second scout. “Good football player. Big hitter for his size. Guys that can do both are becoming pretty valuable. He and Branch are going to be valuable commodities.” His vertical jump of 44 was the best by a defensive back. His 11-2 broad jump paced the safeties and demonstrated just how explosive he is. “People didn’t give Lovie Smith enough credit,” a third scout said. “The defensive backs he recruited were pretty good.” From Lehigh Acres, Fla. “He’s fast enough to play outside, he can play safety and he’s played nickel,” a third scout said. “He’s the Swiss Army knife for this year’s class.”
 

Smith22

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,698
Reaction score
1,341
SAFETIES
1. BRIAN BRANCH, Alabama (5-11 ½, 192, 4.55, 1-2): Played the star position for Nick Saban that Minkah Fitzpatrick manned with aplomb from 2015-’17. “Is he a safety or a nickel?” one scout said. “Is he too slow for nickel, and can he communicate to be a safety? That’s got to be the key. He’s a great football player but he has a few warts on him. He can’t cover for very long (from the slot). That (directing a secondary) is his bugaboo. He’s a great tackler, not a good one. He’s 4.6 for us, but damn can he play football.” Scored 15 on the Wonderlic. “He’s probably the best safety,” said a second scout. “He played that star position in Nick’s defense, which is very tough to play. He’s kind of like a nick (nickel).” A 5-star recruit, he essentially started for three seasons before declaring a year early. “He’s one of those guys that is a better football player than tester,” a third scout said. “He doesn’t fit the profile of an elite athlete because his numbers are pretty pedestrian. But the thing that sets him apart is just the instincts. His movements are much more decisive when he’s on the field. He sees things quicker.” Finished with 172 tackles (19 ½ for loss), four sacks, four picks and 27 PBUs. “He can be a safety much like (Antoine) Winfield,” said a fourth scout. “Kind of that hybrid down safety. More of a short-to-intermediate zone robber. Can match up with some slots. Good in the run game. But I see him as a starting nickel.” From Fayetteville, Ga.
Do you think he could play the same role some of current safeties do, as a hybrid LB/S?
 

McKDaddy

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,965
Reaction score
10,707
Does anyone have the S2 scores for these players?

All the corners seem to have similar Wonderlic scores. Would be interesting to see how their S2 scores lined up.
 

visionary

Well-Known Member
Messages
28,476
Reaction score
33,450
This is why we should have traded Diggs for a 1 and taken a CB with it

But our FO is stupid, so what else is new
 

CATCH17

1st Round Pick
Messages
67,671
Reaction score
86,222
This is why we should have traded Diggs for a 1 and taken a CB with it

But our FO is stupid, so what else is new
I like Diggs and think he’s awesome but I don’t get why they wouldn’t be shopping him.

He’s not going to be worth at all what he will get paid. You know it’s going to be a bad contract.

So go see if some other team is willing to do a deal.

He should land you a 1. I would think a team like the Chiefs would love him. Especially considering they force their opponents to become pass happy.
 

Sydla

Well-Known Member
Messages
61,769
Reaction score
95,316
This is why we should have traded Diggs for a 1 and taken a CB with it

But our FO is stupid, so what else is new
Who you kidding?

They would have botched a Diggs trade, gotten back like a 4th round pick and then tomorrow night, we'd see another team trade a good young CB for a #1. Still boggles the mind that they dumped Cooper for a 5th and then we watched other WRs get a crap ton more in trades. And when everyone was saying, "Gee guys, hard to get value with the contract", the Browns quietly just restructured him and made the contract quite manageable. LOL.
 

J-man

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,682
Reaction score
2,278
Big reason why I wouldn't be opposed to taking one in either rd 1 or 2. If you don't get one there, you might as well not take one. And despite what the pundits say, we do need one. When we lost Brown and Lewis last season, they had to change things up and we lost the defensive dominance we had earlier in the year.
Brown hasn't re-signed and is coming off major injury, Lewis has a big cap #, is a slot only and coming off major injury, Bland looks to be a keeper but is a slot only so either he or Lewis is out after the year, Diggs will be a FA next year, Gilmore is 32 and has had 1 really good season in the last several years and we currently have junk behind him, Joseph appears to be a bust, Goodwin is a ST ace, Wright is a decent depth cb/s hybrid.
Drafting or acquiring another starting caliber CB is a priority.
 

Creeper

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,754
Reaction score
19,990
Interesting. I was listening to Pat Kirwan talking about combine results and he made a point about the other drills being more important for certain positions. He said you had to look not only at the 40 times but also the 3 cone and shuttle drills. Guys with good 40 times but slower 3-cone and shuttle times were just fast runners but were not quick on breaks and that means they were probably not going to get separation as WRs or could not stay with receivers if they play CB. Kirwan said he value toe other two drills over the 40 times, but of course their had to be a threshold of 40 times as well.
 

Sydla

Well-Known Member
Messages
61,769
Reaction score
95,316
Big reason why I wouldn't be opposed to taking one in either rd 1 or 2. If you don't get one there, you might as well not take one. And despite what the pundits say, we do need one. When we lost Brown and Lewis last season, they had to change things up and we lost the defensive dominance we had earlier in the year.
Brown hasn't re-signed and is coming off major injury, Lewis has a big cap #, is a slot only and coming off major injury, Bland looks to be a keeper but is a slot only so either he or Lewis is out after the year, Diggs will be a FA next year, Gilmore is 32 and has had 1 really good season in the out of the last several years and we currently have junk behind him, Joseph appears to be a bust, Goodwin is a ST ace, Wright is a decent depth cb/s hybrid.
Drafting or acquiring another starting caliber CB is a priority.
Yeah I think it's possible if the board falls a certain way and a good CB is there and we take him, they could end up cutting Lewis for the cap savings post draft.
 

Cowboyny

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,237
Reaction score
20,271
This is why we should have traded Diggs for a 1 and taken a CB with it

But our FO is stupid, so what else is new
Why in the world would you trade Diggs? Misses a few tackles? Teams are scared to throw the football against him cause of his ball skills. He is a core player that isn't going anywhere.
 

Gaede

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,165
Reaction score
14,127
Dallas finally had a good, young CB that can actually locate the ball and get an interception, and Cowboys fans want to trade him.

I don’t get this fan base sometimes
No idea what they're thinking. We got one after so long and suddenly harken back to the Byron Jones, Brandon Carr days
 

visionary

Well-Known Member
Messages
28,476
Reaction score
33,450
Why in the world would you trade Diggs? Misses a few tackles? Teams are scared to throw the football against him cause of his ball skills. He is a core player that isn't going anywhere.
He’s not worth the 22 million/y he’ll hold out for next year
 

visionary

Well-Known Member
Messages
28,476
Reaction score
33,450
The grass is always greener...
That’s the uninformed answer

The real answer is that it is about expending resources wisely and understanding that great and consistent defense is about discipline and tackling and built around front 7 and safety play not by spending 22 million on a CB who won’t tackle

My proposal in the early off season was to trade Diggs for a rd 1 pick with which you take a CB like Porter or Forbes and use the 22 million saved on signing Hargrave and Wagner

You really believe that Diggs is worth more than Porter/Forbes + Hargrave + Wagner?

Maybe you do
 
Top