Most over rated: speed

[btcutter]

40 yd speed is got to be the most overrated barometer for scouting. Everyone get so caught up in "how did he do in the 40?", it's amazing.

Let's just look at a few skill position with regards to "speed".

RB: NFL all time leading rusher.........Emmit Smith. He isn't exactly a burner. Instinct and vision in a RB are far more important than pure speed. Peyton isn't exactly a speedster either. Nice to have speed but without instinct and vision.....just another track guy.

WR: Jerry Rice didn't light it up in the combines. Michael Irvin isn't exactly a burner. Sure, speed add an element to their game but CATCH THE BALL. Thought of speed bring up my "fond" memories of Alexander Wright. Ability to catch the ball, create separation using quickness are far more important.

TE: Pro Bowler Jason Witten. Vernon Davis runs a sub 4.4 ....big deal. next

CB: Asante Samuels runs 4.51 40. Everson Walls...god knows what he ran in those days. CB is about quickness, anticipation, change of direction, acceleration in short distance. If you can't get INT's in college, you aint getting any in the pros. Find me someone in college that have some INTs. Being at right place, right time can't be taught.
We had Nate Jones....4.3 guy....well, we all know how he did last yr.

 

[Yeagermeister]

40 yd speed is got to be the most overrated barometer for scouting. Everyone get so caught up in "how did he do in the 40?", it's amazing.

Let's just look at a few skill position with regards to "speed".

RB: NFL all time leading rusher.........Emmit Smith. He isn't exactly a burner. Instinct and vision in a RB are far more important than pure speed. Peyton isn't exactly a speedster either. Nice to have speed but without instinct and vision.....just another track guy.

WR: Jerry Rice didn't light it up in the combines. Michael Irvin isn't exactly a burner. Sure, speed add an element to their game but CATCH THE BALL. Thought of speed bring up my "fond" memories of Alexander Wright. Ability to catch the ball, create separation using quickness are far more important.

TE: Pro Bowler Jason Witten. Vernon Davis runs a sub 4.4 ....big deal. next

CB: Asante Samuels runs 4.51 40. Everson Walls...god knows what he ran in those days. CB is about quickness, anticipation, change of direction, acceleration in short distance. If you can't get INT's in college, you aint getting any in the pros. Find me someone in college that have some INTs. Being at right place, right time can't be taught.
We had Nate Jones....4.3 guy....well, we all know how he did last yr.

One the other hand one of the best cb to ever play Deion Sanders ran a 4.2

 

[theogt]

Typically, 40 yard speed is a good barometer of how an athlete will perform in other measure of athleticisms. In other words, a better 40 time usually means they'll have a better broad jump, shuttle, etc. In that regard, I think it's perfectly reasonable to first ask for a 40 speed.

 

[MONT17]

Randy Moss ran what a 4.2 asa rookie? I'm sure Bo Jackson had a good 40 time... its all about the scouting and their ability to predict what they see in Shorts to what happens in pads!!!

 

[btcutter]

Typically, 40 yard speed is a good barometer of how an athlete will perform in other measure of athleticisms. In other words, a better 40 time usually means they'll have a better broad jump, shuttle, etc. In that regard, I think it's perfectly reasonable to first ask for a 40 speed.

How often do football players run in shorts in a straight line?

Broad jump measures explosion and shuttle measures quickness and change in direction. They are actually better measures of a good athlete than simple straight line speed.

 

[theogt]

How often do football players run in shorts in a straight line?

Never, but speed in shorts is a good indicator of speed in pads.

Broad jump measures explosion and shuttle measures quickness and change in direction. They are actually better measures of a good athlete than simple straight line speed.

Other measurables are better measures of other things, yes, but my point was that 40 time is a good indicator of those other measurables.

You rarely have a guy with an abnormally slow 40 but also has a very good shuttle time.

 

[btcutter]

Randy Moss ran what a 4.2 asa rookie? I'm sure Bo Jackson had a good 40 time... its all about the scouting and their ability to predict what they see in Shorts to what happens in pads!!!

True, but it'll already evident in the film room. Present day 40 time is artificial because of the intense pre draft training designed specifically at getting good 40 times. During regular NFL season I don't think anyone is training for a 40 time.

 

[DFWJC]

40 speed is a good judge of fast-twitch...as the scouts call it. There are distributions of 40 times by position on a bell curve. if a player falls within an acceptable range, than to some degree you are right...the 40 time is just a verifying number.

However, if a player is an outlier--like a ave size RB who runs a 4.6 40 or a 4.35 40, then they will notice. A slower guy better have supreme skills and savvy. A faster guy also has to have the skill (obviously) but they know that speed helps bridge the gap.

A DB who screws up just slightly and has no recovery speed just gave up a TD. A fairly slow RB who hits a crease with gets 5-15 yards (if he has wiggle), but a blazer who hits a crease could take it to the house.

I agree that the split times are key. A guy who is average hitting the whole and does not reach top speed until much later does not help near as much.

Bottom line...they all must be skilled and the intagibles are huge. But supreme speed can separte the average from the good or the good from the great at times.

 

[DFWJC]

True, but it'll already evident in the film room. Present day 40 time is artificial because of the intense pre draft training designed specifically at getting good 40 times. During regular NFL season I don't think anyone is training for a 40 time.

Yes, that is more true now than in the past for sure. Those combine camps that some (but certainly not all) of the players attend can make for some times that are slightly deceiving.

In the end though, the list is long and impressive of faster than normal pass rushers, WRs, and RBs. There are plenty of exceptions, but all else anywhere near being equal, a guy with a blazing 40 time (which as theogt said often translates into better explosiveness, long jump, vertical, etc) is much preferred.

 

[Haley94]

Anyone know what Dorsett's 40 time was? The only guy I saw catch him was the fastest man in the NFL (Green).

 

[btcutter]

Problem is that a bunch of people including GMs forget the films and falls in love with players with "speed" or distance themselves from "lack" of speed. I still remember Terrel Suggs DE/LB from whom the Ravens drafted. Incredible passrusher but poor 40 time. How many teams wish they picked him. WRs are the worse of the group. Usually WRs shoot up the draft board after the combines because of their "40" time. Troy Williamson esp comes to mind.

To me, film speed should always come first.

 

[DFWJC]

40 yd speed is got to be the most overrated barometer for scouting. Everyone get so caught up in "how did he do in the 40?", it's amazing.

Let's just look at a few skill position with regards to "speed".

RB: NFL all time leading rusher.........Emmit Smith. He isn't exactly a burner. Instinct and vision in a RB are far more important than pure speed. Peyton isn't exactly a speedster either. Nice to have speed but without instinct and vision.....just another track guy.

WR: Jerry Rice didn't light it up in the combines. Michael Irvin isn't exactly a burner. Sure, speed add an element to their game but CATCH THE BALL. Thought of speed bring up my "fond" memories of Alexander Wright. Ability to catch the ball, create separation using quickness are far more important.

TE: Pro Bowler Jason Witten. Vernon Davis runs a sub 4.4 ....big deal. next

CB: Asante Samuels runs 4.51 40. Everson Walls...god knows what he ran in those days. CB is about quickness, anticipation, change of direction, acceleration in short distance. If you can't get INT's in college, you aint getting any in the pros. Find me someone in college that have some INTs. Being at right place, right time can't be taught.
We had Nate Jones....4.3 guy....well, we all know how he did last yr.

Those guys were not really outliers speed wise--except maybe Emmitt. His 40 was slow, but he was truly unusual and a huge exception. They just were not super fast. As long as they are not really slow, their supreme skills can hold court.

 

[DFWJC]

Anyone know what Dorsett's 40 time was? The only guy I saw catch him was the fastest man in the NFL (Green).

sub 4.4 I believe...which would translate to a 4.3 now. Players are WAY faster now...even way faster than just 10 years ago. It's hard to run away from people nowadays without sick speed.

He was amazing..as were Jim Brown, Simpson, Sanders, Jackson, Walker, Dickerson, Tomilson...they all have/had "outlier" speed but also skills.

 

[DFWJC]

WRs are the worse of the group.
quote]

Yep. If you can't break press coverage, run a route, or actually catch the ball, it makes zero difference what your 40 is.

 

[speedkilz88]

Problem is that a bunch of people including GMs forget the films and falls in love with players with "speed" or distance themselves from "lack" of speed. I still remember Terrel Suggs DE/LB from whom the Ravens drafted. Incredible passrusher but poor 40 time. How many teams wish they picked him. WRs are the worse of the group. Usually WRs shoot up the draft board after the combines because of their "40" time. Troy Williamson esp comes to mind.

To me, film speed should always come first.

Suggs is a bad example imo, he isn't near as good a player as some thought he was going to be even with the slow 40.

 

[DallasDomination]

Burst and change of directions speed is 1000000000X more important then straight line speed.

Vision is >>> everything else.

Emmitt had decent change of direction, decent Burst, ok Speed but GREAT VISION!!. That's why He was awsome.

 

[playmakers]

Track speed doesn't mean anything in the NFL. Thats why the 40 times in Indy should be thrown out. See what these athletes can do with an extra 5-10 pounds on them in pads. This is what seperates the men from the boys. Put these guys in pads, and only then, 40 times would mean something. Desean Jackson might run 4.29 on a track, but 4.51 as an example in pads, what does that time from Indy mean? If Malcom Kelly runs a 4.55 on track in Indy but because hes bigger and stronger than Jackson can keep that 4.55 in pads, then what does the 40 times in Indy mean? I hope you guys know what Im trying to get out and hope you think this has some credence to the draft process. If I was a scout and seen all these fast guys run, I would look directly at their leg strength. If they have small legs then its almost a gurantee their going to slow down some in pads.

Example, Michael Irvin ran a 4.6 in no pads but all of his teammates said he ran 4.6 in pads as well. Thats what made him all-pro. Emmitt Smith was a 4.5 guy and in pads he probably still ran 4.5. Both of these players could probably squat, deadlift, leg curls etc a ton. With all this being said, theres always an exception to the rule every now and then. But, it doesnt happen to often.

 

[Rack]

40 yd speed is got to be the most overrated barometer for scouting. Everyone get so caught up in "how did he do in the 40?", it's amazing.

Let's just look at a few skill position with regards to "speed".

RB: NFL all time leading rusher.........Emmit Smith. He isn't exactly a burner. Instinct and vision in a RB are far more important than pure speed. Peyton isn't exactly a speedster either. Nice to have speed but without instinct and vision.....just another track guy.

WR: Jerry Rice didn't light it up in the combines. Michael Irvin isn't exactly a burner. Sure, speed add an element to their game but CATCH THE BALL. Thought of speed bring up my "fond" memories of Alexander Wright. Ability to catch the ball, create separation using quickness are far more important.

TE: Pro Bowler Jason Witten. Vernon Davis runs a sub 4.4 ....big deal. next

CB: Asante Samuels runs 4.51 40. Everson Walls...god knows what he ran in those days. CB is about quickness, anticipation, change of direction, acceleration in short distance. If you can't get INT's in college, you aint getting any in the pros. Find me someone in college that have some INTs. Being at right place, right time can't be taught.
We had Nate Jones....4.3 guy....well, we all know how he did last yr.

One the other hand one of the best cb to ever play Deion Sanders ran a 4.2

Deion's speed added to his greatness, it didn't MAKE him great. He would have been one of the best ever even if he ran a 4.5.

 

[Rack]

Never, but speed in shorts is a good indicator of speed in pads.

No, it absolutely isn't.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Deion's speed added to his greatness, it didn't MAKE him great. He would have been one of the best ever even if he ran a 4.5.

Sorry but this just isnt true. Sanders knew how to use his speed and would bait QBs knowing that he was fast enough to get to the ball. 4.5 speed would not have allowed him to do that. In a position where you have to take risks to be successful speed is the best hedge.