Mr. 3000 (DJ3K)

[Stautner]

Ripken only played 667 games of his long career at 3B. There is only about a 40 game difference in games played at SS between Jeter and Ripken.

Not true about Honus. He played nearly 1900 of his 2777 games at SS.

True about Yount. He played nearly as many in the OF as he did at SS.

But the thing with Jeter, he's a great hitter for average and has gotten COMPLETELY overrated with his glove throughout his career. The accolades he has gotten with the glove is what separates him from other SS' in history. The GG's he has gotten are about as real as a man on Pluto. Statistically, year after year Jeter ranks among the worst SS in MLB, but somehow gets credit as being one of the best. His defensive career was basically made up of him making so many routine plays look difficult.

I'll give him credit for being a great hitter for average. I'll give him credit for being looked to as the leader in that Yankee clubhouse for so many years. But those two qualities doesn't equal him passing shortstops like Ripken, Wagner, Vaughan, etc.,

Top 10 at his position? Yes. Best ever? No.

My point about Ripken still stands though - he was not a shortstop when he got to 3,000. I want you to be clear that I didn't say that as a slap at Ripken, I was merely pointing out a fact about Jeter that I thought was worth noting.

As for Wagner, again the point still stands that Jeter was the only SS to reach 3,000 hits strictly as a SS. As for the exact split of games played at different positions, I knew Wagner played shortstop somewhat more than other positions combined, although I thought the split might have been closer. Still, your numbers show that Wagner played about 1/3 of his games at positions other than shortstop, and Wagner was playing those other positions all throughout his career, not just at the end like when Ripken moved to 3B.

AS for Jeter's glove, I certainly agree that he is no Ozzie Smith, Omar Vizquel or in the league of the elite glove men at SS, but he is solid and he is a smart in the field and contributes with his intangibles as much as any player I've ever seen, so that helps boost him in my eyes. Intangibles do matter, and at SS more than probably any position other than catcher, so I think that is a fair, if difficult to quantify, consideration.

Still, I agree he is not the best of all time, I just think he has a legitimate place in the discussion.

 

[BigWillie]

Really pointless to bring up that Ripken was at 3B, because the fact is when you play 2,000+ games at a single position, that is where you will be remembered.

Same goes for Honus. Nearly 2,000 games at a position, that is where you will be remembered.

Bringing up either for playing other positions when the VAST majority of their career at one position is just silly, IMO. For Robin Yount, yeah it is a little relevant. For the two mentioned above - it has no point in a discussion whatsoever. JMO.

Jeter's glove - what intangibles? People remember one play against the A's, and that is it. What other plays can you name off where he showed off some sort of incredible defensive ability, or even intangible in the field that made you say 'WOW'?

Yes, I'm hard on Jeter and his glove. Those GG's he has make me absolutely sick and IMO, lessen the prestige of those awards when players like Jeter get them. I almost wish MLB would recognize the Fielding Bible awards instead.

 

[Stautner]

Really pointless to bring up that Ripken was at 3B, because the fact is when you play 2,000+ games at a single position, that is where you will be remembered.

Same goes for Honus. Nearly 2,000 games at a position, that is where you will be remembered.

Bringing up either for playing other positions when the VAST majority of their career at one position is just silly, IMO. For Robin Yount, yeah it is a little relevant. For the two mentioned above - it has no point in a discussion whatsoever. JMO.

Jeter's glove - what intangibles? People remember one play against the A's, and that is it. What other plays can you name off where he showed off some sort of incredible defensive ability, or even intangible in the field that made you say 'WOW'?

Yes, I'm hard on Jeter and his glove. Those GG's he has make me absolutely sick and IMO, lessen the prestige of those awards when players like Jeter get them. I almost wish MLB would recognize the Fielding Bible awards instead.

This seems a little too personal and emotionial to you - are you a Red Sox fan .....?

For starters, you need to get off the Ripken kick as if I was talking him down - you are WAYYYYY overplaying that. Of course Ripken will be remembered primarily as a shortstop - ONCE AGAIN I merely thought it was worth noting that Jeter was the only person to ever reach 3,000 playing exclusively as a shortstop. It was not meant to be a dramatic point in my post, nor was it meant to talk down every shortstop other than Jeter.

As for Jeter's "glove - intangibles", as you meantioned, I have no idea what you are talking about. His glove is one thing, his intangibles another. The point I was making is that he is one of those players that is the baseball equivalent of a gym rat in basketball - a John Stockton type who's contributions go beyond stats. Ripken and Vizquel are similar in that regard. It's not something you can quantify or point to in a single play (although the play against the A's is a fine example) - it's just somthing wrapped up in the nuances of the game - a level of understanding and instinct and attention to detail and nuance that not every player has.

As for the glove, as I've said before, he certainly isn't at the level of the elite glove men like Ozzie and Omar, but his career fielding percentage is right there with Ripken, Ozzie and others. He played 150 games last year and only had 6 errors - phenominal for a shortstop. He had only 8 errors the year before - 14 total errors over 2 years. Look it up - how many current shortstops have had no more than 14 errors in even one year, much less over a 2 year period?

 

[DFWJC]

Obviously, you're a more knowledgeable baseball fan than I am.

Think he can hold up for that long to challenge it?

No....