Multiple Front Defense - By the numbers

[xwalker]

Mike Nolan likes to use 1 or 2 Hybrid DE/LB type players. These players are very very similar to 3-4 OLBs.

A 3-4 OLB is more like a DE than like a LB. Those players play DE in the 4-2-5 Nickel and play DE if they move to a 4-3 defense. They rarely ever become 4-3 LBs.

Here is a numerical method of looking at different fronts with regards to overall size in run defense.

If the hybrid player is considered 75% DE and 25% LB, then:

DL-Hybrid-LB
4-1-2 ,equivalent to: 4.75-2.25
3-2-2 ,equivalent to: 4.5-2.5
4-0-3 ,equivalent to: 4-3
4-0-2, equivalent to: 4-2-5 Nickel
3-1-2, A 3 DL Nickel. Similar to a 4-3 but with 1 DT removed and replaced by a big LB.

Notes:
The 4-1-2 is a big 4-3. It is almost a 5-2.
The 3-2-2 is basically a 3-4.

Notes about 3-4:
- Notice it is basically a 4.5-2.5.
- A standard 3-4 is a run defense.
- It has 3 DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs.
- A 4-3 only has 2 DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs.

 

[glimmerman]

Thanks for the info.

 

[Kaiser]

If the hybrid player is considered 75% DE and 25% LB, then:

This clearly seems like the right approach to the talent we have on the roster and the McCarthy (counter Marinelli) philosophy of making the scheme fit the talent instead of vice versa.

DLaw, LVE, Jaylon, Smith, Gregory, etc are all guys with athleticism that is way above average for the DE/LB positions.

 

[Cowboyny]

My only worry is the last time they tried to run more of a complex defense, it was a total disaster under Rob Ryan.

 

[BAT]

Mike Nolan likes to use 1 or 2 Hybrid DE/LB type players. These players are very very similar to 3-4 OLBs.

A 3-4 OLB is more like a DE than like a LB. Those players play DE in the 4-2-5 Nickel and play DE if they move to a 4-3 defense. They rarely ever become 4-3 LBs.

Here is a numerical method of looking at different fronts with regards to overall size in run defense.

If the hybrid player is considered 75% DE and 25% LB, then:

DL-Hybrid-LB
4-1-2 ,equivalent to: 4.75-2.25
3-2-2 ,equivalent to: 4.5-2.5
4-0-3 ,equivalent to: 4-3
4-0-2, equivalent to: 4-2-5 Nickel
3-1-2, A 3 DL Nickel. Similar to a 4-3 but with 1 DT removed and replaced by a big LB.

Notes:
The 4-1-2 is a big 4-3. It is almost a 5-2.
The 3-2-2 is basically a 3-4.

Notes about 3-4:
- Notice it is basically a 4.5-2.5.
- A standard 3-4 is a run defense.
- It has 3 DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs.
- A 4-3 only has 2 DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs.

Other than Randy Gregory (yet to be reinstated), who fits criteria of 3-4 OLB?

DLaw may not be athletic enough, definitely no experience with standing up. But Crawford for sure is not a candidate. And at 287, Aldon Smith may not be one as well.

Maybe Dorance Armstrong and Jalen Jelks. But their explosiveness and speed were knocks on them coming out in draft.

Kamara has the size, speed and explosiveness to be a true 3-4 OLB. Same with both Jaylon Smith and LVE.

Joe Jackson is 270. So is Carter.

 

[Eanwen]

Mike Nolan likes to use 1 or 2 Hybrid DE/LB type players. These players are very very similar to 3-4 OLBs.

A 3-4 OLB is more like a DE than like a LB. Those players play DE in the 4-2-5 Nickel and play DE if they move to a 4-3 defense. They rarely ever become 4-3 LBs.

Here is a numerical method of looking at different fronts with regards to overall size in run defense.

If the hybrid player is considered 75% DE and 25% LB, then:

DL-Hybrid-LB
4-1-2 ,equivalent to: 4.75-2.25
3-2-2 ,equivalent to: 4.5-2.5
4-0-3 ,equivalent to: 4-3
4-0-2, equivalent to: 4-2-5 Nickel
3-1-2, A 3 DL Nickel. Similar to a 4-3 but with 1 DT removed and replaced by a big LB.

Notes:
The 4-1-2 is a big 4-3. It is almost a 5-2.
The 3-2-2 is basically a 3-4.

Notes about 3-4:
- Notice it is basically a 4.5-2.5.
- A standard 3-4 is a run defense.
- It has 3 DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs.
- A 4-3 only has 2 DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs.

You might have made a post on this but is there any evidence to suggest having multiple looks (4-3 + 3-4) actually leads to better defense? Maybe more sacks, turnovers?

 

[Bobhaze]

Other than Tom Landry’s “Flex defense”, I’m not a big fan of complex defensive schemes. Although you could probably argue the Flex was mostly about gap control and was not as complex as some think.

To me, the bottom line success of your defense is going to come down to talent and discipline. You have to have both, but if if you have neither, scheme is less of a factor.

 

[Pantone282C]

Not sure what was used as metrics for Jelks lack of explosion and speed, but one review has this:
Pros
Can be tough at the point of attack with quickness at the snap and optimal hand usage.
Flashes skill playing edge run with smooth lateral movement and change of direction.
Pursues across the field and can make plays in space.
Solid tackling skill.
Tenacious pass rusher with variety in technique.

Cons
Lack of bulk and lower body strength causes struggles at times with physical blockers.
Inconsistent working through a block versus perimeter runs at times

There is enough versatility in his skill set to be considered an outside linebacker in some schemes.

https://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/player/37213/

 

[DanA]

I’m pretty confident that Mike Nolan will fit the scheme to the players, it’s been stated a number of times now. If that’s the case then the players on the field to a large extent will dictate the split.

I’d expect Jaylon to be 40% rush 60% coverage because he’s always been an off ball LB. Where as a Gregory or Anae would be 80% plus as a pass rusher.

 

[xwalker]

My only worry is the last time they tried to run more of a complex defense, it was a total disaster under Rob Ryan.

That was not a fundamentally sound scheme. It was extremely dependent on the DC making the correct defensive calls.

One reason that Mike Nolan likes Quarters coverage is that it is the least dependent on the defensive play call because each Safety has freedom to adjust to what is needed on his side of the field.

It also didn't help that Rob Ryan had a tendency to not show up for work during the week.

 

[xwalker]

You might have made a post on this but is there any evidence to suggest having multiple looks (4-3 + 3-4) actually leads to better defense? Maybe more sacks, turnovers?

Belichick has been doing it the past 2 years (maybe more but I've reviewed the Pats past 2 seasons in detail).
- In 2018 the Pats were a base 4-3 but that really just defines what alignment they were in most often on 1st downs and short yardage situations.
- In 2019 the Pats were a base 3-4 but again that just defines what alignment they were in most often on 1st downs and short yardage situations.

For both Belichick and in the past for Mike Nolan the varied fronts are focused on methods to stop the run without a big sacrifice in pass defense.
- Marinelli's only significant variation was to use a 3 man DL on passing downs (i.e. a 4-3 with 1 DT removed).
- The Cowboys used the 3 man DL more in 2019 than in the past under Marinelli.
- Jaylon would play a hybrid LB/DL role with the 1 DT out and another LB would come in and play Jaylon's normal role.

Both Belichick and Nolan like to play the run with "7 men in the box" by using varied fronts.
- Instead of having the 8th man up, they use a bigger overall front 7 when they want to stop the run.
- You'll often see the Pats SS up but that's often with the Nickel CB back like a 2-deep Safety (i.e. Still 7 in the box).

The Pats defense has evolved to be centered around big LBs. They only had 1 LB that played significant snaps in 2018 and 2019 that was under 250.
- In 2019 they only had 2 DL over 300 pounds.
- It will be interesting to see their performance this year because the on-field "brains" of that defense was hybrid LB Kyle Van Noy and he departed in free agency.
- They drafted a DE in 2019 (Chase Winovich 6-3, 250) that appears to be the replacement for Van Noy.
- Winovich is listed on the Pats roster as a DE but he played primarily as a LB in 2019.

Both Belichick and Mike Nolan like to play 2-deep Safety alignments (often Quarters coverage).
- A huge problem for the Cowboys in 2019 was that they would align the single high FS towards the side with 2 WRs (i.e. the side with the slot WR).
- That meant no deep help on the other side.
- In Quarters coverage there is a Safety on both sides instead of 1 deep Safety trying to cover the entire width of the field.
- Quarters improves intermediate and deep pass defense but is a 7 man in the box type alignment vs the run.
- By using a bigger front 7, run defense is improved without an SS up in the box.
- Obviously bigger hybrid DE/LBs are not a good in pass coverage as most 4-3 LBs but that is offset by having both Safeties back in a better coverage alignment.
- An added benefit of a using Quarters as the base coverage is with regards to roster management.
- Both Safeties are similar without the need to carry 2 separate types of Starters and Backups.
- The 3rd best Safety can easily backup both spots; whereas, with single-high schemes the backup SS might be different than the backup FS.

In 2019 with Kris Richard responsible the back 7 and calling the plays but not having control over the DL, his only recourse to improve in stopping the run was to sacrifice pass defense.
- KR basically just took away both deep inside and short inside help from the CB on the side with 1 WR. That was most often Awuzie.
- At the same time Awuzie still had significant responsibilities in run defense while having no help in pass defense.
- Even Deion and Richard Sherman didn't have that much responsibility to be superman.
- Deion had no help in pass defense but didn't have extensive expectations to come up and stop outside runs.
- Richard Sherman had either deep inside help from Earl Thomas or short inside help from LBs and the SS. He often had help both short/long inside.

Many defenses use an SS in the box to improve run defense or keep the SS back for the best pass defense.
- In the past couple of years the Cowboys would often have SS Heath up in the box area but he still had responsibility to play man coverage from short to deep.
- We saw in 2019 when Heath missed games that Thompson couldn't play that style because he didn't have the elite speed of Heath.

 

[Cowboyny]

That was not a fundamentally sound scheme. It was extremely dependent on the DC making the correct defensive calls.

One reason that Mike Nolan likes Quarters coverage is that it is the least dependent on the defensive play call because each Safety has freedom to adjust to what is needed on his side of the field.

It also didn't help that Rob Ryan had a tendency to not show up for work during the week.

We heard Eberflus being a major part of coaching that defense, he was Ryan's right hand man until he was let go. Let's hope the safeties learn to make the right reads and are in sink with the corners in front of them.

 

[xwalker]

We heard Eberflus being a major part of coaching that defense, he was Ryan's right hand man until he was let go. Let's hope the safeties learn to make the right reads and are in sink with the corners in front of them.

Quarters coverage should be easier for the Safeties mentally than single-high.

Each Safety just has to "read" his side of the field with much less focus on reading the entire field.

For the SS it prevents him from having to move when an offensive player motions from one side to the other pre-snap.

 

[xwalker]

This clearly seems like the right approach to the talent we have on the roster and the McCarthy (counter Marinelli) philosophy of making the scheme fit the talent instead of vice versa.

DLaw, LVE, Jaylon, Smith, Gregory, etc are all guys with athleticism that is way above average for the DE/LB positions.

Yes Jaylon and LVE are bigger than most 4-3 LBs.

Most draft analysts thought Randy Gregory was best suited to play as a 3-4 OLB.

Aldon Smith played as a 3-4 OLB in the past but is now bigger than many 4-3 DEs.

I think DLaw will play a very similar position to what he played previously (Strong Side DE in Marinelli's scheme).
- McCarthy has emphatically stated that they will be a base 4 man DL. I think he has repeated that primarily to to say that DLaw's position won't change much.
- There have been a few snaps in the past where DLaw played from a 2-point stance. Even if he does that more it likely won't much if any LB duties attached to it.
- When a 4-3 DE plays from a 2-point stance it gives him a little bit of an advantage in outside run contain.
- He can get outside a little quicker and he can see the play develop a little better.

 

[CWR]

Mike Nolan likes to use 1 or 2 Hybrid DE/LB type players. These players are very very similar to 3-4 OLBs.

A 3-4 OLB is more like a DE than like a LB. Those players play DE in the 4-2-5 Nickel and play DE if they move to a 4-3 defense. They rarely ever become 4-3 LBs.

Here is a numerical method of looking at different fronts with regards to overall size in run defense.

If the hybrid player is considered 75% DE and 25% LB, then:

DL-Hybrid-LB
4-1-2 ,equivalent to: 4.75-2.25
3-2-2 ,equivalent to: 4.5-2.5
4-0-3 ,equivalent to: 4-3
4-0-2, equivalent to: 4-2-5 Nickel
3-1-2, A 3 DL Nickel. Similar to a 4-3 but with 1 DT removed and replaced by a big LB.

Notes:
The 4-1-2 is a big 4-3. It is almost a 5-2.
The 3-2-2 is basically a 3-4.

Notes about 3-4:
- Notice it is basically a 4.5-2.5.
- A standard 3-4 is a run defense.
- It has 3 DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs.
- A 4-3 only has 2 DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs.

Thanks brother. You do good work.

 

[Cowboyny]

Quarters coverage should be easier for the Safeties mentally than single-high.

Each Safety just has to "read" his side of the field with much less focus on reading the entire field.

For the SS it prevents him from having to move when an offensive player motions from one side to the other pre-snap.

-Sounds pretty simplistic, as each safety just has to cover his half of the field. It makes more sense now in this quarters scheme why they are in essence starting two cover free safeties than then a tradition free/strong.

-A big lineup with 7 in the box to stop the run. I gather that's the combination of the front 4 and the hybrid player (more of a stand-up DE) along with the two linebackers. Both Jaylon/Lve are around that 250 lb benchmark and are considered big at the position.

-No matter the alignment up front, it appears the new Defense is going to rush 5 on an consistent basis, compared to 4 under Marinelli. With press coverage on the outside, disrupting timing, you would think the Linebackers will have a key role within this defense. When QB's have to get the ball out quickly, they usually throw to hot routes underneath. Tackling has to be paramount.

 

[xwalker]

Other than Randy Gregory (yet to be reinstated), who fits criteria of 3-4 OLB?

DLaw may not be athletic enough, definitely no experience with standing up. But Crawford for sure is not a candidate. And at 287, Aldon Smith may not be one as well.

Maybe Dorance Armstrong and Jalen Jelks. But their explosiveness and speed were knocks on them coming out in draft.

Kamara has the size, speed and explosiveness to be a true 3-4 OLB. Same with both Jaylon Smith and LVE.

Joe Jackson is 270. So is Carter.

Anae played a hybrid DE/LB role in college.

It won't be a true 3-4 under Mike Nolan. His 3 man DL alignment is often just a 4-3 with one DE standing up.
- The difference in a true 3-4 vs a 4-3 with one DE playing from a 2-point stance is dependent on the alignment of the 3 DL.
- If the 3 DL are aligned like a Strong Side 4-3 DE, a 4-3 1tech and a 4-3 3tech, then the hybrid player is a stand-up DE.
- If the 3 DL are basically all between the outside shoulders of the OTs and both DEs are lined up on the OTs, then it's a 3-4.
- Most fans think the 3-4 was intended to be a pass defense alignment designed to disguise which OLB was pass rushing.
- That's not the original intent of the 3-4 and it's still not it's primary purpose.
- The premium pass rushing OLB rushes the passer on most pass plays.
- When DWare was in Dallas, the opposite side OLB dropped into coverage 3x (sometimes 4x) more often than DWare.
- DWare's success was not predicated on "surprise" with regards to offenses not knowing who was pass rushing.

As I've said many times, the 3-4 is really a run defense alignment as compared to the 4-3.
- DWare and most 3-4 OLBs are players that would play DE in a 4-3, not LB.
- That means that a 3-4 with DWare size OLBs is similar to having 5 DL vs the run.
- DWare played DE in Nickel (i.e. With less threat of run 3-4 DCs move to a 4 man DL).

By having a 4-3 DE play from a 2-point stance, it gives him a small advantage in outside run contain including QBs rolling outside.
- From a 2-point stance the player can get to the outside a little quicker.
- He can also see the play develop a little bit better.

If DLaw plays any snaps from a 2-point stance, he won't have much if any LB type duties.
- It will just be to give him that small advantage in things like outside run contain vs both RBs and QBs which are duties he would have anyway.

Aldon Smith might be more comfortable playing from a 2-point stance even if he is really just playing DE.

Both Belichick and Mike Nolan have played different types of 3-4 looks in the past.
- One or both 3-4 OLBs can be DE/LB hybrids or one or both can be more like 4-3 LBs with better coverage skills.
- I've seen Nolan play some 3-4 snaps with 1 hybrid DE/LB and 3 smaller LBs (4-3 LB types) vs 3 WR sets instead of using a Nickel CB.
- That's similar to using a base 4-3 vs 3 WRs but the stand-up DE gives some added flexibility in short area coverage to offset not having the Nickel CB.

 

[Kaiser]

It also didn't help that Rob Ryan had a tendency to not show up for work during the week.

Hey! Lets see YOU try to work with a hangover that bad.

 

[xwalker]

-Sounds pretty simplistic, as each safety just has to cover his half of the field. It makes more sense now in this quarters scheme why they are in essence starting two cover free safeties than then a tradition free/strong.

-A big lineup with 7 in the box to stop the run. I gather that's the combination of the front 4 and the hybrid player (more of a stand-up DE) along with the two linebackers. Both Jaylon/Lve are around that 250 lb benchmark and are considered big at the position.

-No matter the alignment up front, it appears the new Defense is going to rush 5 on an consistent basis, compared to 4 under Marinelli. With press coverage on the outside, disrupting timing, you would think the Linebackers will have a key role within this defense. When QB's have to get the ball out quickly, they usually throw to hot routes underneath. Tackling has to be paramount.

Run Defense Starting with the max run defense alignment (not including goal-line alignments).
Big 4-3: Hybrid player at OL. That's similar to 5 DL vs the run.
True 3-4: The hybrid player(s) at OLB. The 3 DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs (only 2 DL in that space with a true 4-3).
True 4-3: The hybrid player is a DE in this alignment. The LBs are all 4-3 types with more coverage ability than hybrids or 3-4 OLBs.

The base is 2-deep but each Safety has the option to drop down into or near the box area based on the offensive alignment on his side and the down/distance situation.
- Note: The 2-deep Safeties align closer to the line than a single-high FS but farther off the line than a true SS.
- It allows the Safeties to be somewhat tweeners as compared to a single high base defense's FS or SS.
- Less time in the box and protected by bigger front 7 if they do drop down into the box area allows for smaller Safeties than a true SS.
- Less range required than a single-high FS allows for some players that don't have great range to play in 2-deep alignments.
- It's probably good for X.Woods. He is too small to be a true SS. He has decent but not elite range at FS.
- I'm curious to see Donovan Wilson. His college position coach is now his position coach with the Cowboys.

 

[Kaiser]

- It's probably good for X.Woods. He is too small to be a true SS. He has decent but not elite range at FS.

All of this is a wildcard until we really see them on the field but Woods was a playmaker in college. If he has fewer responsibilities and more experience, he could definitely step up into a guy who is making plays instead of what we saw last year.