Murder trial moral dilemma

Reverend Conehead

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Nothing like a good moral dilemma to start off your day. The love of your life had a moral failing. Let's call her Jenny. She drove the getaway car for a mobster who committed a murder. The mobster, let's call him Ralphie, went in and shot some rival mobster 30 times with a fully automatic AK-47. You happened to be there hiding in the closet, and were able to see everything through the louvered closet doors, but Ralphie did not see you. You know the guy, and you're certain he's the murderer. The murder victim was also a mobster scumbag.

You later learn that Jenny was coerced to drive the getaway car, but she has a checkered past, and you fear that they won't believe her, and she'll be prosecuted and put away for many years.

The prosecution wants you to testify against Ralphie so they can put him behind bars for life, and they offer you immunity. You can't be prosecuted for anything you say, but it also means you can't plead the 5th for anything. In other words, you're not allowed to refuse to answer any questions.

Meanwhile, you're visited by the mob's boss, Tony. You're afraid he's going to threaten you with murder, but he doesn't do that. He says he's interested in playing nice and attracting flies with honey or whatever. He offers you 10 million dollars tax free to not implicate Ralphie. He shows you proof that a Cayman islands bank account exists with the 10 mil already in it. All you have to do is testify that your vision was blurry, plus it was too dark, and so you couldn't really tell who the murderer was. Do that, and you get all the banking info that gives you access to the big bucks. All you would have to do is get to the Cayman Islands, and you're rich.

However, you've already told the DA that you saw everything clearly and you know it was Ralphie for sure, guaranteed, positively with 100 percent certainty without any doubts at all.

You fear if you testify truthfully, the mob will call a hit on you and have you blown away. Plus, your testimony could end up implicating Jenny, whom you're in love with. However, if you lie by saying you could barely see anything, you'll protect Jenny, the love of your life, plus you'll get 10 million dollars of secret money in a Cayman islands account. You and she could disappear there and live in luxury for the rest of your lives.

What do you do?

1. You tell the DA you want to testify, but your life has been threatened. You try to get put into witness protection, and you ask for immunity for Jenny, and to have her get into witness protection with you.

2. Testify that you were having problems with your contacts drying out that day, and so you took them out. As a result, from your closet vantage point, all you could see was a big blur, and you could hear only the shots and the victim screaming, but you have no earthly clue who did the hit. You really are nearsighted and normally wear contacts, btw.

When the prosecutor asks why you said in their interview that it was Ralphie, you say you were mistaken. You had been hallucinating on shrooms that day they talked. You then accept the 10 mil and run off to the Cayman islands with Jenny.

3. Other
 
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DallasEast

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Why is an innocent bystander being offered or need immunity for testifying? Does the witness have a history of prior criminal activity?
 

Roadtrip635

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Where did this take place and why were you hiding in the closet in the first place? People usually don't just happen to be hiding in closets. Why would they offer you immunity, what did you do that warranted an immunity deal? Jenny may be the love of your life, but how certain that the feeling is reciprocal, what is she doing hanging around mob guys and if in fact she truly was coerced why couldn't she make an immunity deal?

Are you really going to trust that a mob boss is going to hand over that much cash? Why would you have to go to the Caymans to collect? He has that banking info also, you could get there and find out that there's no money left in the account or you get there and get whacked before you walk in the bank. Maybe Jenny whacks you in the Caymans because she was in fact threatened by the mob boss or the worst is you collect the money, but Jenny whacks you and takes all the money for herself, that's an awful lot of money and you left the cap off the toothpaste one too many times.
 

Reverend Conehead

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Why is an innocent bystander being offered or need immunity for testifying? Does the witness have a history of prior criminal activity?

Not totally innocent of everything, no. He was associated with the mobsters in some way, but is a peon on their organization.
 

Reverend Conehead

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Where did this take place and why were you hiding in the closet in the first place? People usually don't just happen to be hiding in closets. Why would they offer you immunity, what did you do that warranted an immunity deal? Jenny may be the love of your life, but how certain that the feeling is reciprocal, what is she doing hanging around mob guys and if in fact she truly was coerced why couldn't she make an immunity deal?

Are you really going to trust that a mob boss is going to hand over that much cash? Why would you have to go to the Caymans to collect? He has that banking info also, you could get there and find out that there's no money left in the account or you get there and get whacked before you walk in the bank. Maybe Jenny whacks you in the Caymans because she was in fact threatened by the mob boss or the worst is you collect the money, but Jenny whacks you and takes all the money for herself, that's an awful lot of money and you left the cap off the toothpaste one too many times.

See my other post. This guy is an associate of the murdered guy, so he's not totally innocent, but is a minor mob person. The money is in the Cayman Islands to prevent it from being traceable. This guy, Tony, is a mobster, but is good about keeping his word. If he says the bucks are there, he's telling the truth. If you asked for one, he would probably give you a cruise ship ticket to the Cayman Islands to make it easier to get to the bank with the money. But you're probably smart not to transfer the money to a US bank, lest the authorities figure out that there was a payoff. You could just keep it in the Cayman Islands and enjoy life.

If you don't trust Jenny, you could probably just dump her. Plus, she doesn't get the bank account info. Only you do.
 

DallasEast

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Not totally innocent of everything, no. He was associated with the mobsters in some way, but is a peon on their organization.
Criminal activity is criminal activity. Does not matter how small or massive it is.

You say 'associated with mobsters', which does not mean anything really, but you also that he is a 'peon in their organization'. So I assume he committed non-violent felonies, which the prosecutor would offer him immunity?
 

Roadtrip635

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See my other post. This guy is an associate of the murdered guy, so he's not totally innocent, but is a minor mob person. The money is in the Cayman Islands to prevent it from being traceable. This guy, Tony, is a mobster, but is good about keeping his word. If he says the bucks are there, he's telling the truth. If you asked for one, he would probably give you a cruise ship ticket to the Cayman Islands to make it easier to get to the bank with the money. But you're probably smart not to transfer the money to a US bank, lest the authorities figure out that there was a payoff. You could just keep it in the Cayman Islands and enjoy life.

If you don't trust Jenny, you could probably just dump her. Plus, she doesn't get the bank account info. Only you do.
Sure Tony is a goodfella, a mob boss would never lie....... :rolleyes:
If you're a minor mob guy, why wouldn't Tony just ask you to take the fall? Ralphie must at least be a capo for Tony to be so generous and have worth to him. You take the fall, the family takes care of you on the inside and when you get out, rise within the organization, you've proved your loyalty to the family, that's no small thing. Tony pays off Jenny, considerably less than the 10 mill, to swear in court that it was self defense, after all there's no other witness. There's a good chance you don't do any time or can plea down to a couple years and you spend that time learning to shave garlic with a razor. Moral dilemmas become fuzzier when you're already a morally compromised individual working for the mob.
 

Reverend Conehead

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Criminal activity is criminal activity. Does not matter how small or massive it is.

You say 'associated with mobsters', which does not mean anything really, but you also that he is a 'peon in their organization'. So I assume he committed non-violent felonies, which the prosecutor would offer him immunity?

Yes, that's exactly it.
 

nobody

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Nothing like a good moral dilemma to start off your day. The love of your life had a moral failing. Let's call her Jenny. She drove the getaway car for a mobster who committed a murder. The mobster, let's call him Ralphie, went in and shot some rival mobster 30 times with a fully automatic AK-47. You happened to be there hiding in the closet, and were able to see everything through the louvered closet doors, but Ralphie did not see you. You know the guy, and you're certain he's the murderer. The murder victim was also a mobster scumbag.

You later learn that Jenny was coerced to drive the getaway car, but she has a checkered past, and you fear that they won't believe her, and she'll be prosecuted and put away for many years.

The prosecution wants you to testify against Ralphie so they can put him behind bars for life, and they offer you immunity. You can't be prosecuted for anything you say, but it also means you can't plead the 5th for anything. In other words, you're not allowed to refuse to answer any questions.

Meanwhile, you're visited by the mob's boss, Tony. You're afraid he's going to threaten you with murder, but he doesn't do that. He says he's interested in playing nice and attracting flies with honey or whatever. He offers you 10 million dollars tax free to not implicate Ralphie. He shows you proof that a Cayman islands bank account exists with the 10 mil already in it. All you have to do is testify that your vision was blurry, plus it was too dark, and so you couldn't really tell who the murderer was. Do that, and you get all the banking info that gives you access to the big bucks. All you would have to do is get to the Cayman Islands, and you're rich.

However, you've already told the DA that you saw everything clearly and you know it was Ralphie for sure, guaranteed, positively with 100 percent certainty without any doubts at all.

You fear if you testify truthfully, the mob will call a hit on you and have you blown away. Plus, your testimony could end up implicating Jenny, whom you're in love with. However, if you lie by saying you could barely see anything, you'll protect Jenny, the love of your life, plus you'll get 10 million dollars of secret money in a Cayman islands account. You and she could disappear there and live in luxury for the rest of your lives.

What do you do?

1. You tell the DA you want to testify, but your life has been threatened. You try to get put into witness protection, and you ask for immunity for Jenny, and to have her get into witness protection with you.

2. Testify that you were having problems with your contacts drying out that day, and so you took them out. As a result, from your closet vantage point, all you could see was a big blur, and you could hear only the shots and the victim screaming, but you have no earthly clue who did the hit. You really are nearsighted and normally wear contacts, btw.

When the prosecutor asks why you said in their interview that it was Ralphie, you say you were mistaken. You had been hallucinating on shrooms that day they talked. You then accept the 10 mil and run off to the Cayman islands with Jenny.

3. Other

I'll go along with the scenario as is and not question or poke holes, viewing it like the train dilemma.

It's a no brainer for me. If it were me, I'd choose option 1. I'd rather sleep better at night, not knowing how many nights I might have left, knowing I did the right thing and helped put a murderer away and trying to get the love of my life out of trouble legally.

I would not want to live with knowing I helped a murderer get off even if it maybe made me wealthy for it. That's just me though.
 

kskboys

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Can't be me. I know better than to associate myself w/ the mob. And if a girl I was interested in was associated w/ the mob, I would not be interested in that girl any more.

My advice to the minor mobster: Get out. Witsec, whatever, but get out. If for some reason I were him, I'd insist on Witsec to testify. That deal being offered of 10 mil is in no way legit. No possible way. Mobsters don't pay minor mob guys to not testify.

The minor mob guy is most likely better off keeping his mouth shut. He testifies, he dies. That simple.
 

DallasEast

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Yes, that's exactly it.
Got it. My choice would #3 for other.

If the mob retaliation threat is credible, the DA would put him in witness protection. They would not put Jenny and him in witness protection together as a condition due to the fact she is an alleged accomplice to murder.

The mob could locate her and pressure her to eliminate the state's prime witness to the murder. There is no maximum limit to coercion. She helped a murderer under duress once. What's stopping her from being coerced into killing him? No prosecutor would take that chance. That would be crazy.

He should testify so that a murderer can be taken off the street. Then he can reminisce of the life Jenny and he never had.

TxC1HFY.gif
 

Runwildboys

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Nothing like a good moral dilemma to start off your day. The love of your life had a moral failing. Let's call her Jenny. She drove the getaway car for a mobster who committed a murder. The mobster, let's call him Ralphie, went in and shot some rival mobster 30 times with a fully automatic AK-47. You happened to be there hiding in the closet, and were able to see everything through the louvered closet doors, but Ralphie did not see you. You know the guy, and you're certain he's the murderer. The murder victim was also a mobster scumbag.

You later learn that Jenny was coerced to drive the getaway car, but she has a checkered past, and you fear that they won't believe her, and she'll be prosecuted and put away for many years.

The prosecution wants you to testify against Ralphie so they can put him behind bars for life, and they offer you immunity. You can't be prosecuted for anything you say, but it also means you can't plead the 5th for anything. In other words, you're not allowed to refuse to answer any questions.

Meanwhile, you're visited by the mob's boss, Tony. You're afraid he's going to threaten you with murder, but he doesn't do that. He says he's interested in playing nice and attracting flies with honey or whatever. He offers you 10 million dollars tax free to not implicate Ralphie. He shows you proof that a Cayman islands bank account exists with the 10 mil already in it. All you have to do is testify that your vision was blurry, plus it was too dark, and so you couldn't really tell who the murderer was. Do that, and you get all the banking info that gives you access to the big bucks. All you would have to do is get to the Cayman Islands, and you're rich.

However, you've already told the DA that you saw everything clearly and you know it was Ralphie for sure, guaranteed, positively with 100 percent certainty without any doubts at all.

You fear if you testify truthfully, the mob will call a hit on you and have you blown away. Plus, your testimony could end up implicating Jenny, whom you're in love with. However, if you lie by saying you could barely see anything, you'll protect Jenny, the love of your life, plus you'll get 10 million dollars of secret money in a Cayman islands account. You and she could disappear there and live in luxury for the rest of your lives.

What do you do?

1. You tell the DA you want to testify, but your life has been threatened. You try to get put into witness protection, and you ask for immunity for Jenny, and to have her get into witness protection with you.

2. Testify that you were having problems with your contacts drying out that day, and so you took them out. As a result, from your closet vantage point, all you could see was a big blur, and you could hear only the shots and the victim screaming, but you have no earthly clue who did the hit. You really are nearsighted and normally wear contacts, btw.

When the prosecutor asks why you said in their interview that it was Ralphie, you say you were mistaken. You had been hallucinating on shrooms that day they talked. You then accept the 10 mil and run off to the Cayman islands with Jenny.

3. Other
I think the bigger question is, "Would it be worth coming out of the closet?"
o_O:muttley:
 

OmerV

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The mob doesn't play nice. They intimidate and threaten. They don't give away $10 million.
On top of that, once you testified falsely and Ralphie was found innocent the mob would have no incentive to give you access to the account in the Caymans. Double jeopardy applies and Ralphie is off the hook forever.
 

Reverend Conehead

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On top of that, once you testified falsely and Ralphie was found innocent the mob would have no incentive to give you access to the account in the Caymans. Double jeopardy applies and Ralphie is off the hook forever.

This is a hypothetical moral dilemma. Those things are rarely perfectly realistic, for example, the moral dilemmas where you can switch which train track a locomotive is on, choosing which people get killed. That would almost certainly not happen in real life, just as you're probably not going to get offered 10 mil by the mob to falsely testify.

Just have fun with it. Do you go against the mob and get their guy convicted, going into witness protection? Or do you do what the mob wants and get rich?
 

OmerV

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This is a hypothetical moral dilemma. Those things are rarely perfectly realistic, for example, the moral dilemmas where you can switch which train track a locomotive is on, choosing which people get killed. That would almost certainly not happen in real life, just as you're probably not going to get offered 10 mil by the mob to falsely testify.

Just have fun with it. Do you go against the mob and get their guy convicted, going into witness protection? Or do you do what the mob wants and get rich?
You're right. No need to overthink.

I think you said I was working at a low level for the mobsters. If the mobsters I was working for are the ones that committed the murder, and assuming I knew they were mobsters, I would have to cover it up. After all, I was collecting a paycheck from them despite knowing what business they are in. If Tony offered me $10 million to do it, so much the better. I I worked for the mobster that got murdered I would tell the others in the organization and let them kill Tony and other mobsters in that organization. In that way I would be in the good graces of the mobsters I work for, and the mobsters in the other group would be dead and I wouldn't have to testify.
 
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