Off Topic, slightly: Shante Carver

[HoleInTheRoof]

Okay, I didn't follow the draft too closely until around 2002 or so. So I don't remember too much about us drafting Shante Carver.

What I do know now is that he was one of our worst draft picks of all time. And I also know that Ron Wolf commented when we took him in the draft, they (the Packers) had a 5th round grade on him.

So, my question is . . . what was league response when we took him? What was media response? Where was Shante rated pre-draft in mocks, and such?

And Mel Kiper used to be pretty critical and outspoken back in those days (we all remember his exchanges with the Colts in the early 90's). What was his and other talking head responses?

 

[Hostile]

I only remember my response, which cannot be printed on this forum. I think I cursed for 2 straight minutes and never said the same word twice.

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

Okay, I didn't follow the draft too closely until around 2002 or so. So I don't remember too much about us drafting Shante Carver.

What I do know now is that he was one of our worst draft picks of all time. And I also know that Ron Wolf commented when we took him in the draft, they (the Packers) had a 5th round grade on him.

So, my question is . . . what was league response when we took him? What was media response? Where was Shante rated pre-draft in mocks, and such?

And Mel Kiper used to be pretty critical and outspoken back in those days (we all remember his exchanges with the Colts in the early 90's). What was his and other talking head responses?

I remember hoping that Dallas knew what they were doing, but I was hoping they would get Henry Ford so what did I know.

 

[HoleInTheRoof]

I only remember my response, which cannot be printed on this forum. I think I cursed for 2 straight minutes and never said the same word twice.

Did you follow the draft as closely then as you do now? Was Shante really a big reach? Or did you just not like the player.

 

[Zimmy Lives]

Did you follow the draft as closely then as you do now? Was Shante really a big reach? Or did you just not like the player.

Carver was actually a productive player at AZ but there were questions about his talent transitioning to the NFL level. The Cowboys took him because they desperately wanted to find a pass rusher. He may not be the greatest reach in Jerry's tenure but certainly a reach based on need.

Bottom line is the Cowboys should never draft players with girls names such as Shante and Kavika!

 

[Hostile]

Did you follow the draft as closely then as you do now? Was Shante really a big reach? Or did you just not like the player.

I have been a Draft junkie for a long time. I am in Pac 10 country and I wouldn't have taken Carver before the 3rd round if at all. I hated the pick and not just because he was a Scum Devil. I already couldn't stand Barry Switzer and I was mad as hell at Jerry over Jimmy. That just cemented it for me. Not until the day that Michael Irvin got hurt and Jerry went with him to the hospital did I begin to forgive that era of football and not until he hired Tuna was I completely over my anger.

 

[Hostile]

Carver was actually a productive player at AZ but there were questions about his talent transitioning to the NFL level. The Cowboys took him because they desperately wanted to find a pass rusher. He may not be the greatest reach in Jerry's tenure but certainly a reach based on need.

Bottom line is the Cowboys should never draft players with girls names such as Shante and Kavika!

Bite your tongue. He was at ASU.

 

[dbair1967]

Okay, I didn't follow the draft too closely until around 2002 or so. So I don't remember too much about us drafting Shante Carver.

What I do know now is that he was one of our worst draft picks of all time. And I also know that Ron Wolf commented when we took him in the draft, they (the Packers) had a 5th round grade on him.

So, my question is . . . what was league response when we took him? What was media response? Where was Shante rated pre-draft in mocks, and such?

And Mel Kiper used to be pretty critical and outspoken back in those days (we all remember his exchanges with the Colts in the early 90's). What was his and other talking head responses?

Most people had Carver rated as a 1st or 2nd rd pick. I still have my old draft guides and will dig up what I can, but he went about where he was expected to go. Wolf's comments are one guys opinion, but he also made those comments years after the fact.

He was extremely productive at Arizona State, in fact he had 10+ sacks in all four of his seasons there. He didnt run a great 40 time but most thought he had the pass rush ability to overcome that.

His biggest problem was alcohol abuse, and it ruined his career. if he had stayed sober and worked hard he could have been a decent NFL player. He did make some plays and had some decent games for us. I remember one game vs Jacksonvilel where he tore Tony Boselli up and had 2 or 3 sacks that day against him.

Ultimately he was a disappointment, but he wasnt the mega reach some try to make him out to be. He just didnt work out.

 

[Alexander]

That was one (and the first) of the biggest draft mistakes of the post-Johnson era. I can recall vividly the footage of Jones after he was taken, acting like he had some coup, when he was a borderline first round talent at best. The bad thing is, he did not just cost a first round pick.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1994-04-25/sports/1994115124_1_kiper-tobin-colts/2

The 49ers then got a second-round pick from the Cowboys to drop to the 28th slot. It was the first draft move for the Cowboys now that Jimmy Johnson has departed and owner Jerry Jones is in charge, although Larry Lacewell is now running the personnel department.

Jones, who had tried to peddle Alvin Harper to move up into the top 10, decided to keep the wide receiver when he couldn't get defensive lineman Willie McGinest of Southern Cal from the New England Patriots, who selected him fourth behind Shuler.

Jones shook hands with his colleagues in the draft room when the Cowboys selected defensive lineman Shante Carver of Arizona State with the 23rd pick.

Jones later jokingly asked if the ESPN cameras had made him look as if he were busy in the draft room. Johnson has claimed that in the past, Jones told him to sit close to him in the draft room so he'd look involved during the draft. Jones has denied the allegation.

The cameras did catch new coach Barry Switzer yawning at one point.

"I learned a lot in the draft room," Switzer said later.

 

[dbair1967]

That was one (and the first) of the biggest draft mistakes of the post-Johnson era. I can recall vividly the footage of Jones after he was taken, acting like he had some coup, when he was a borderline first round talent at best. The bad thing is, he did not just cost a first round pick.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1994-04-25/sports/1994115124_1_kiper-tobin-colts/2

Again, he went about where he was supposed to go. We didnt select him in the top-10 or even the top-20.

He just didnt work out. Had he stayed sober, he might have. IIRC nobody had any idea he had an alcohol problem going in, I certainly dont remember anything written about it.

 

[Alexander]

Again, he went about where he was supposed to go. We didnt select him in the top-10 or even the top-20.

He just didnt work out. Had he stayed sober, he might have. IIRC nobody had any idea he had an alcohol problem going in, I certainly dont remember anything written about it.

Obviously, trading a second round choice to move UP to draft someone who went were "he was supposed to go" does not bother you. It was not just an innocent bad choice.

Like Quincy Carter, this was a bad selection not just from an evaluation standpoint, but also from a cost analysis. Busting on a pick is bad enough, busting on a pick you give up additional draft choices is even worse.

 

[HoleInTheRoof]

Thanks for the info, all.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Most people had Carver rated as a 1st or 2nd rd pick. I still have my old draft guides and will dig up what I can, but he went about where he was expected to go. Wolf's comments are one guys opinion, but he also made those comments years after the fact.

He was extremely productive at Arizona State, in fact he had 10+ sacks in all four of his seasons there. He didnt run a great 40 time but most thought he had the pass rush ability to overcome that.

His biggest problem was alcohol abuse, and it ruined his career. if he had stayed sober and worked hard he could have been a decent NFL player. He did make some plays and had some decent games for us. I remember one game vs Jacksonvilel where he tore Tony Boselli up and had 2 or 3 sacks that day against him.

Ultimately he was a disappointment, but he wasnt the mega reach some try to make him out to be. He just didnt work out.

That's exactly the way I remember it. He was a bit of a reach, and most people realized we were drafting to fill that position need and not the best player, but it wasn't as outrageous a reach as, say, a Tony Dixon. The Ron Wolf quote was the extreme view, I'd say, to embarrass Jerry.

He was less of a bust than Bobby Carpenter, that's for sure. Where was Big Bill's buddy Ron Wolf on that one?

 

[InmanRoshi]

He was seen as an early 2nd guy. Obviously some teams would have him lower, and some teams would have him higher. As Alexander said, the reason it was so ridiculous is because Jerry gave up a ridiculous amount to move up because the world was going to come to an end unless he drafted Shante Carver. Supposedly Butch Davis became infatuated with Carver at the Senior Bowl practices. He just wasn't a very good athlete. As opposed to Kavika Pittman and Pepe Zellner, who were great athletes just not very good football players.

Ah, Jerry and Larry's greatest hits (or misses).

 

[Alexander]

He was seen as an early 2nd guy. Obviously some teams would have him lower, and some teams would have him higher. As Alexander said, the reason it was so ridiculous is because Jerry gave up a ridiculous amount to move up because the world was going to come to an end unless he drafted Shante Carver. Supposedly Butch Davis became infatuated with Carver at the Senior Bowl practices. He just wasn't a very good athlete. As opposed to Kavika Pittman and Pepe Zellner, who were great athletes just not very good football players.

Ah, Jerry and Larry's greatest hits (or misses).

To move up five spots, he gave up a second round choice. Too bad Coach Johnson did not leave behind his trade value chart.

 

[HoleInTheRoof]

To move up five spots, he gave up a second round choice. Too bad Coach Johnson did not leave behind his trade value chart.

Did we have 2 seconds that year? Because we did draft LA in the 2nd in 1994.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

As opposed to Kavika Pittman and Pepe Zellner, who were great athletes just not very good football players.

Not to change the subject too much, but I've always thought that a big part of our failure to hit on young players back then was our coaching. Sure, some guys simply couldn't play and wouldn't have been able to no matter what. But I think these two guys -- talented guys from small schools -- are examples of guys who might have been pretty decent with better teaching and coaching.

 

[dbair1967]

To move up five spots, he gave up a second round choice. Too bad Coach Johnson did not leave behind his trade value chart.

The Browns gave the Lions a 2nd rd pick to mvoe up one spot the yr they took Kellen Winslow.

Value is decided by supply and demand. Maybe there were several teams trying to get into that spot.

 

[dbair1967]

Obviously, trading a second round choice to move UP to draft someone who went were "he was supposed to go" does not bother you. It was not just an innocent bad choice.

Like Quincy Carter, this was a bad selection not just from an evaluation standpoint, but also from a cost analysis. Busting on a pick is bad enough, busting on a pick you give up additional draft choices is even worse.

This is totally different than the Quincy Carter thing, because Carter shouldnt have been a 2nd rd pick and almost nobody had him rated anywehre close to that.

They traded up to get a player they had a fairly high grade, at a position which was an extremely high need because of the uncertainty with Charles Haley's back situation. Most people forget he had problems for alot of 1992, and almost all of 1993 with the back.

 

[dbair1967]

Did we have 2 seconds that year? Because we did draft LA in the 2nd in 1994.

Yes, we did.