Off Topic, slightly: Shante Carver

[Chief]

Carver wasn't considered much of a reach at the time. There was no outcry or anything during the coverage on TV. Kiper had him ranked as the second or third DE, I think.

People didn't realize he was an alcoholic.

I have draft guides and draft tapes somewhere in storage.

 

[Alexander]

This is totally different than the Quincy Carter thing, because Carter shouldnt have been a 2nd rd pick and almost nobody had him rated anywehre close to that.

They traded up to get a player they had a fairly high grade, at a position which was an extremely high need because of the uncertainty with Charles Haley's back situation. Most people forget he had problems for alot of 1992, and almost all of 1993 with the back.

In terms of giving up more than one choice to take a player, it is exactly like the Carter deal. Jones gave up several choices after stockpiling them in order to move back up and get Carter. As I said before, missing on a top choice is bad. Giving up additional choices and still whiffing is even worse because it not only cost the choice to draft them but others just to have the chance to draft them.

And I could care less about the "high need". Carver is a perfect example of what happens when you enter a draft desperate and "need" a player. In those days, Jones was a draft neophyte and it showed. He panicked and gave up too much for a player who probably was not coveted by a lot of clubs. He did it again with LaFleur and Carter in subsequent years.

 

[dbair1967]

In terms of giving up more than one choice to take a player, it is exactly like the Carter deal. Jones gave up several choices after stockpiling them in order to move back up and get Carter. As I said before, missing on a top choice is bad. Giving up additional choices and still whiffing is even worse because it not only cost the choice to draft them but others just to have the chance to draft them.

And I could care less about the "high need". Carver is a perfect example of what happens when you enter a draft desperate and "need" a player. In those days, Jones was a draft neophyte and it showed. He panicked and gave up too much for a player who probably was not coveted by a lot of clubs. He did it again with LaFleur and Carter in subsequent years.

This is pretty much the sour grapes/hindsight is 20/20 approach that so many have. You dont like the move because it didnt work out, not because at the time and with everything involved, that it was a bad pick. What if they had traded up for Larry Allen in 1994 instead of Shante Carver? And then drafted Carver where they drafted Allen at? Would you be complaining today because they gave up the 2nd rd pick to move up for the player?

Carver went about where he was supposed to go, we didnt trade up to get a guy who was expected to go on the 2nd day.

 

[HoleInTheRoof]

He did it again with LaFleur and Carter in subsequent years.

I seem to recall reading an article somewhere about how it was so widely known we wanted LaFleur that the Eagles called us and lied saying another team was wanting to trade up with them to get LaFleur, which prompted us to trade up with them. Meanwhile, the Eagles were laughing because of course there was no other team wanting to make that trade.

I don't remember where I heard or read this, or what the Cowboys response to this was.

 

[Hostile]

This is pretty much the sour grapes/hindsight is 20/20 approach that so many have. You dont like the move because it didnt work out, not because at the time and with everything involved, that it was a bad pick. What if they had traded up for Larry Allen in 1994 instead of Shante Carver? And then drafted Carver where they drafted Allen at? Would you be complaining today because they gave up the 2nd rd pick to move up for the player?

Carver went about where he was supposed to go, we didnt trade up to get a guy who was expected to go on the 2nd day.

For some people that may be true. Not for me. I never liked the pick. I threw a tantrum over it. I never wanted Shante Carver.

 

[dwmyers]

In terms of giving up more than one choice to take a player, it is exactly like the Carter deal. Jones gave up several choices after stockpiling them in order to move back up and get Carter.

I remember the Carter dealing well, because with the original #2 pick at 37, I wanted Dallas to take Kris Jenkins.

For that #2, Dallas ended up getting Tony Dixon and QC. Probably the last chance to get some value with all of Jerry's wheeling and dealing was when WR Chris Chambers was available, but Miami wanted Chambers and Jerry was trading picks to stroke his own ego.

I could have lived with keeping Tony Banks and having KJ at DT. But nooooooooooo..

 

[Plankton]

The Cowboys originally had a deal in place with Cleveland to trade the 28th overall selection and Alvin Harper for the 6th overall pick, which they wanted to use to take Willie McGinest. Parcells then drafted McGinest 4th overall, and the trade was pulled back. There's famous footage of Jones lowering his head to the table in the war room when the Patriots pick was announced.

He panicked later in the round, and believing that the Oilers wanted Carver, he traded the 28th and a second rounder to the 49ers for the pick that was used for Carver. The Oilers had no intention of taking Carver, and took Henry Ford. The 49er selections turned into William Floyd and Kevin Mitchell. Incidentally, the 49ers also traded into the Browns slot once the Cowboys pulled out of the deal, and took Bryant Young.

With the exception of the Allen selection, that is a draft to forget on many levels.

As far as Carver was concerned, he played at Arizona State at around 225 pounds. He bulked up to 265 pounds, and lost his first step quickness, which was his strength. Combine this with a non existent work ethic and a drinking problem, and you have a bust.

 

[HoleInTheRoof]

The Cowboys originally had a deal in place with Cleveland to trade the 28th overall selection and Alvin Harper for the 6th overall pick, which they wanted to use to take Willie McGinest. Parcells then drafted McGinest 4th overall, and the trade was pulled back. There's famous footage of Jones lowering his head to the table in the war room when the Patriots pick was announced.

He panicked later in the round, and believing that the Oilers wanted Carver, he traded the 28th and a second rounder to the 49ers for the pick that was used for Carver. The Oilers had no intention of taking Carver, and took Henry Ford. The 49er selections turned into William Floyd and Kevin Mitchell. Incidentally, the 49ers also traded into the Browns slot once the Cowboys pulled out of the deal, and took Bryant Young.

With the exception of the Allen selection, that is a draft to forget on many levels.

As far as Carver was concerned, he played at Arizona State at around 225 pounds. He bulked up to 265 pounds, and lost his first step quickness, which was his strength. Combine this with a non existent work ethic and a drinking problem, and you have a bust.

Good information. Thanks.

 

[dbair1967]

For some people that may be true. Not for me. I never liked the pick. I threw a tantrum over it. I never wanted Shante Carver.

Did you just not like the guy personally or something? He was an extremely good player at a bigtime school and was regarded as a late 1st/early 2nd rd pick by everyone at the time.

 

[Chief]

There's famous footage of Jones lowering his head to the table in the war room when the Patriots pick was announced.

I remember that.

 

[dbair1967]

The Cowboys originally had a deal in place with Cleveland to trade the 28th overall selection and Alvin Harper for the 6th overall pick, which they wanted to use to take Willie McGinest. Parcells then drafted McGinest 4th overall, and the trade was pulled back. There's famous footage of Jones lowering his head to the table in the war room when the Patriots pick was announced.

He panicked later in the round, and believing that the Oilers wanted Carver, he traded the 28th and a second rounder to the 49ers for the pick that was used for Carver. The Oilers had no intention of taking Carver, and took Henry Ford. The 49er selections turned into William Floyd and Kevin Mitchell. Incidentally, the 49ers also traded into the Browns slot once the Cowboys pulled out of the deal, and took Bryant Young.

With the exception of the Allen selection, that is a draft to forget on many levels.

As far as Carver was concerned, he played at Arizona State at around 225 pounds. He bulked up to 265 pounds, and lost his first step quickness, which was his strength. Combine this with a non existent work ethic and a drinking problem, and you have a bust.

The bolded part is not true, they said the next day they had somebody different targeted, but took Ford when that player was gone.

Also, Carver was heavier than 225 at Ariz St

I dont recall the Harper scenario to the Browns, but it was widely reported they had a deal like that with the Rams, who I think traded down after the Cowboys pulled out of that deal when McGinest went to the Pats.

 

[dbair1967]

I seem to recall reading an article somewhere about how it was so widely known we wanted LaFleur that the Eagles called us and lied saying another team was wanting to trade up with them to get LaFleur, which prompted us to trade up with them. Meanwhile, the Eagles were laughing because of course there was no other team wanting to make that trade.

I don't remember where I heard or read this, or what the Cowboys response to this was.

What nobody ever remembers is that LaFleur was very highly regarded, and BLESTO had him rated as the 9th best player in that draft.

He was not a bad pick, his career was just ruined by the back injury.

 

[Chief]

Also, Carver was heavier than 225 at Ariz St

I think Kiper had him listed at 241, which was probably his weight at the combine.

 

[Hostile]

Did you just not like the guy personally or something? He was an extremely good player at a bigtime school and was regarded as a late 1st/early 2nd rd pick by everyone at the time.

I did not think he would replicate in the NFL what he had done in the Pac 10. He had no size to him at all. In fact I had been standing next to him one time and I thought he was way too small for the NFL. He had skinny chicken legs, no chest, very little arm definition.

That told me he was not a hard worker in the weight rooms. I knew he would break down because of it. He had relied on athletic ability alone. There's no room for lazy in the NFL, IMO.

I had a sense he was going to think he could run right by NFL OTs and he was going to be in for a rude awakening. I forget what his weight was listed as. I want to say 260 to 265. Bull, if he was 240 pounds I'd have asked him to empty his pockets.

If we had been a 3-4 team and were going to play him at OLB I might have liked the pick. We weren't so I hated it. On top of that we still had Charles Haley and Tony Tolbert so I didn't see it as a big need move for the Cowboys. If I remember right I wanted Todd Steussie. I think he went before we picked. I am not 100% sure of that and don't want to look it up.

Thank goodness we got Larry Allen, whom I knew nothing about. He saved that draft from being a total disaster.

 

[DFWJC]

I remember it well. It was baffling, and yes, Kiper did say it was a huge reach. There weren't as many mocks back then but some (not most) of the ones out there did have him as a 1st or 2nd rounder.

Wolfe was correct obviously. And this is why Dallas dug itself such a huge hole in the years between Jimmy and BP...our drafting was just not that great.

 

[dbair1967]

I remember it well. It was baffling, and yes, Kiper did say it was a huge reach. There weren't as many mocks back then but some (not most) of the ones out there did have him as a 1st or 2nd rounder.

Wolfe was correct obviously. And this is why Dallas dug itself such a huge hole in the years between Jimmy and BP...our drafting was just not that great.

As FYI, I have all of Kiper's draft guides from around 1990-2002.

You either made that up or said something I dont recall. IF he did say it, he's basically calling his own draft guide a sham, because he had Carver rated the #3 DE and gave him a 9.1 rating, which put him as the 24th highest rated player in the draft. He also said Carver was "a player who improved their draft grade with a solid all-star performance". In his initial mock draft, he had Carver going 37th overall but later moved him into the first round. He also described Carver as "one of my favorite players in the draft, due primarily to his relentless style and focused approach".

Kiper had Carver rated ahead of Willie McGinest as fyi.

 

[dbair1967]

I seem to recall reading an article somewhere about how it was so widely known we wanted LaFleur that the Eagles called us and lied saying another team was wanting to trade up with them to get LaFleur, which prompted us to trade up with them. Meanwhile, the Eagles were laughing because of course there was no other team wanting to make that trade.

I don't remember where I heard or read this, or what the Cowboys response to this was.

By the way, Kiper had LaFleur rated the #1 TE in his 1997 draft guide, and has an incredibly glowing write up of him. Said he would probably hear his name "in the early to mid portion of round one" (he had him going 13th) and like BLESTO, had LaFleur rated the 9th best player in the draft. Joel Buschbaum also had LaFleur as the #1 TE.

 

[dbair1967]

In He panicked and gave up too much for a player who probably was not coveted by a lot of clubs. He did it again with LaFleur and Carter in subsequent years.

I just did the research for you on the LaFleur thing, and your wrong.

 

[DFWJC]

As FYI, I have all of Kiper's draft guides from around 1990-2002.

You either made that up or said something I dont recall. IF he did say it, he's basically calling his own draft guide a sham, because he had Carver rated the #3 DE and gave him a 9.1 rating, which put him as the 24th highest rated player in the draft. He also said Carver was "a player who improved their draft grade with a solid all-star performance". In his initial mock draft, he had Carver going 37th overall but later moved him into the first round. He also described Carver as "one of my favorite players in the draft, due primarily to his relentless style and focused approach".

Kiper had Carver rated ahead of Willie McGinest as fyi.

I'm going by memory only, so I'll take your word for it. I wouldn't say it unless I thought it were true. But I must be missing something here. So if it wasn't Kiper who said it was a reach on draft day on TV, can you recall who it was? I know there weren't as many guys on TV back then, so the choices are limited.

 

[dbair1967]

I'm going by memory only, so I'll take your word for it. I wouldn't say it unless I thought it were true. But I must be missing something here. So if it wasn't Kiper who said it was a reach on draft day on TV, can you recall who it was? I know there weren't as many guys on TV back then, so the choices are limited.

It was only covered by ESPN and their crew then, so have no idea.

I guess I should have mentioned that one of the reasons I stopped getting Kiper's Draft Guide was because of stuff kinda like this. He'd have these glowing write ups of certain players, then a few days later or a month later in his Draft Review bash the teams selection. He was always quite critical of everything the Cowboys did post Jimmy Johnson. Conversely, he was quite the homer for the Commanders and former Commanders GM Bobby Beathard (then in San Diego) who routinely made stupid draft day moves (such as trading the next yrs #1 for a #2 this yr) and then drafting some obscure player that nobody had ever heard of.

That said, I dont remember him being negative about Carver on draft day, but he didnt praise the move either. Which was kinda surprising, because he loved the guy in his own draft guide.

By the way what I quoted in the other post is directly from the 1994 Guide.