Ogbogu release spells an end to the 4-3 (and Greg Ellis?)

[Awakened]

I know what you're thinking - Ogbogu didn't figure to play any kind of significant role on this team. However, if you heard Parcells, it is obvious that he really likes the man and believes he is a good player. However, Ogbogu is a classic 4-3 defensive lineman. 6-4, 269. The guys who were kept were more 3-4 defensive lineman. Pepper Johnson is 6-2, 294 and listed as a DT. Ratliff is 6-3, 293. Spears is 6-4, 307. Coleman is 6-5, 284. Canty 6-7, 279. Those four are all listed as DE's - obviously in the 3-4 mold (I bet Canty will gain 15 lbs and much strength during the upcoming offseason).

The only classic 4-3 DE left on the roster is Greg Ellis (6-6, 271). He is being kept because he is a leader and a hard worker - and can probably do a serviceable job as a 3-4 DE. But I think the handwriting is on the wall - Ellis will decrease and the young rookie DE's will increase. If not this year, then certainly next. The die has been cast!

 

[Future]

I don't think Ellis is so small that he won't do a good job in the 3-4. And he can put on weight and bulk up as easily as Canty i would think.

 

[whcarm]

Didn't Parcells state that Ogbogu was one of the best pass rushing LBs on the team? I don't think his release has any implications on our defensive scheme or Greg Ellis.

 

[zagnut]

I think Ellis will be fine in a 3-4. The question is will we need him much longer. Canty, Spears, Coleman, Ratliff are a good group. 3-4 DEs are not much more than OL occupiers and not where salary cap dollars need to be spent. It's not a difficult position to find in the 3-4, imo.

Maybe we see Ellis traded to Oakland in a year for WR Ronald Curry or Doug Gabriel. Or maybe to Indianapolis for E/OLB Robert Mathis.

 

[Eskimo]

If the youngsters develop as expected (Canty, Spears) and look like the bookend starters in the 3-4 for the future, Ellis will probably be traded to a 4-3 team next year. He is a solid LDE who can put up 6-8 sacks/yr and play against the run. The fact that his contract is reasonable, and his attitude and health have been good means there should be a market for him - maybe a 3rd rounder.

 

[Awakened]

Didn't Parcells state that Ogbogu was one of the best pass rushing LBs on the team? I don't think his release has any implications on our defensive scheme or Greg Ellis.

So are you saying that you think Ogbogu could really be successfull as a LB in the 3-4? :laugh2: He's going to cover TE's and RB's? C'mon, get real.

 

[whcarm]

I didn't say anything like that. I repeated what Parcells said about his pass rushing skills.

I think he was a bit role player for us and I don't think he will be missed.

 

[Sandman]

Agree. If the youngsters do well Ellis is trade bait and it might earlier than you think. The bussiness side of fotball always wins out over fan (and coach) favorites.

 

[Smith22]

As much as I like Ellis, I could see us trading him next year if our young pups develop like we expect them to. It wouldn't shock me though to see him adjust to the 3-4 and force Parcells and Jerry into a really tough decision. Main thing would be what teams were willing to offer I suppose.

 

[blindzebra]

Ellis is gone next year unless he re-works his deal. He is due a roster bonus and will be playing a diminishing role. Not a good combo for a 30 year pld player in today's NFL.

 

[FRDRCK]

Spears was 307 in mini camp when they were calling him chubby checker and fats domino, now he is 289.

 

[joseephuss]

Ogbogu wasn't a classic anything. He had decent pass rushing skills from the outside, but not overwhelming pass rush abilities. That was it. He wasn't big enough or good enough to play the run as a DE in the 4-3 or play in coverage as a OLB in the 3-4. His skills didn't really fit any position that well. He was a one trick pony and unfortunately he wasn't better at that.

I am not trying to bash Ogbogu or anything. He is what he is, a back up player. His release is no great indicator of getting rid of the 4-3. It is obvious the team is trying to bring in better quality players to increase the flexibility of the defense. Gregg Ellis may be of comparable size to Ogbogu, but their skills are very different. Ellis can play very well against the run in the 4-3 defense, can provide a decent pass rush and play every down. Even if Dallas decided to stay in the 4-3 the entire season, Ogbogu would still not make the team. Spears and Canty can both play ends in the 4-3 better than Ogbogu. This team has found better football players and some guys have to be let go because of it.

I think Ellis will contribute to the 3-4 this season. A trade next year is possible, but that is a wait and see type of thing.

 

[Smith22]

Ogbogu wasn't a classic anything. He had decent pass rushing skills from the outside, but not overwhelming pass rush abilities. That was it. He wasn't big enough or good enough to play the run as a DE in the 4-3 or play in coverage as a OLB in the 3-4. His skills didn't really fit any position that well. He was a one trick pony and unfortunately he wasn't better at that.

I am not trying to bash Ogbogu or anything. He is what he is, a back up player. His release is no great indicator of getting rid of the 4-3. It is obvious the team is trying to bring in better quality players to increase the flexibility of the defense. Gregg Ellis may be of comparable size to Ogbogu, but their skills are very different. Ellis can play very well against the run in the 4-3 defense, can provide a decent pass rush and play every down. Even if Dallas decided to stay in the 4-3 the entire season, Ogbogu would still not make the team. Spears and Canty can both play ends in the 4-3 better than Ogbogu. This team has found better football players and some guys have to be let go because of it.

I think Ellis will contribute to the 3-4 this season. A trade next year is possible, but that is a wait and see type of thing.

 

[Galian Beast]

What position do you think Marcus Spears played in college?

Or DeMarcus Ware?


We're still going to use the 4-3, and we're still going to use the nickel with a 4 man base.

Ellis isn't lost here. And Ellis won't be spending too much time in the 3-4. He will be saved for more important times during the game, especially in the end. We'll be using the 3-4 to spell Glover and Ellis, and leave them to be more effective later in the game. Even Ware won't be used all that often earlier on in the game. You'll probably see Kevin Burnett getting a lot of playing time on the right side switching with DeMarcus Ware.

 

[FLcowboy]

As much as I like Ellis, I could see us trading him next year if our young pups develop like we expect them to. It wouldn't shock me though to see him adjust to the 3-4 and force Parcells and Jerry into a really tough decision. Main thing would be what teams were willing to offer I suppose.

I think Ellis sticks around, as he is a valuable back-up if he doesn't start, and can play both end positions. He will be needed to spell relief for Spears and Canty, and willnot create a big dropoff when he is in the game.

 

[Awakened]

Ogbogu wasn't a classic anything. He had decent pass rushing skills from the outside, but not overwhelming pass rush abilities. That was it. He wasn't big enough or good enough to play the run as a DE in the 4-3 or play in coverage as a OLB in the 3-4. His skills didn't really fit any position that well. He was a one trick pony and unfortunately he wasn't better at that.

I am not trying to bash Ogbogu or anything. He is what he is, a back up player. His release is no great indicator of getting rid of the 4-3. It is obvious the team is trying to bring in better quality players to increase the flexibility of the defense. Greg Ellis may be of comparable size to Ogbogu, but their skills are very different. Ellis can play very well against the run in the 4-3 defense, can provide a decent pass rush and play every down. Even if Dallas decided to stay in the 4-3 the entire season, Ogbogu would still not make the team. Spears and Canty can both play ends in the 4-3 better than Ogbogu. This team has found better football players and some guys have to be let go because of it.

I think Ellis will contribute to the 3-4 this season. A trade next year is possible, but that is a wait and see type of thing.

OK. I think you're right that Spears is better right now than Ogbogu, and Canty probably will be by the end of the season (I still think he is pretty green). But I must say that it makes no sense to say that Ogbogu is not big enough to be a 4-3 DE when he is basically the same size as Ellis. That part of your argument makes no sense. I am not saying he is that great - just that he is the prototype size for a 4-3 DE. I think you'll have to concede that point - or I can go dig up stats on the size of particular 4-3 DE's around the league and compare them to Ogbogu.

 

[Compacity]

Ogbogu is really good... If he signs with the Baltimore Ravens, I think they could help him, be a DE/OLB, look what they doing with Adalius Thomas...

 

[joseephuss]

OK. I think you're right that Spears is better right now than Ogbogu, and Canty probably will be by the end of the season (I still think he is pretty green). But I must say that it makes no sense to say that Ogbogu is not big enough to be a 4-3 DE when he is basically the same size as Ellis. That part of your argument makes no sense. I am not saying he is that great - just that he is the prototype size for a 4-3 DE. I think you'll have to concede that point - or I can go dig up stats on the size of particular 4-3 DE's around the league and compare them to Ogbogu.

The main focus was that Ogbogu just is not good enough to be full time 4-3 DE. I don't think Ellis is the prototypical size for a 4-3 DE, but he isn't the smallest guy either. Probably the average size. Ogbogu and Ellis are indeed the same size, but they play the position much differently. Ellis can handle the pounding that a strong side 4-3 DE takes. Ogbogu can not. He plays smaller than Ellis. That is why I say he is not big enough for the position. That is why Ellis can make the attempt to move to a 3-4 DE, but Ogbogu was switched to OLB. If it was just based on height and weight, why wasn't Ogbogu asked to be DE? He can't handle those duties. He had a better chance to make it where he can play in space. Unfortunately for him, there are a couple of other guys that can do that, too.

 

[Nors]

Don't rule Ogbogu coming back week 2 if not picked up by someone.

Fujita might be starting by then!

 

[dalsyk]

If the youngsters develop as expected (Canty, Spears) and look like the bookend starters in the 3-4 for the future, Ellis will probably be traded to a 4-3 team next year. He is a solid LDE who can put up 6-8 sacks/yr and play against the run. The fact that his contract is reasonable, and his attitude and health have been good means there should be a market for him - maybe a 3rd rounder.

That is the key to having quality depth on your team. You are then able to trade for picks or player instead of getting in a bind and just losing people. The eagles have been very sucessful at this for years. Parcells said big people don't last on the open market. The injury bug will hit some team and they will need defensive lineman. We may be very surprised what teams will offer for a Glover, Ellis or whoever. Until that happens or not, we have quality depth and play them all. A win win deal. I love it!