Oline and the running game

[Kangaroo]

This is what I ahve seen from the Chiefs game

I have not finished my total analysis I am only on the second qtr I am watching each play about 20 times watching each olinemen charting what they are doing taking very detailed notes. My statements are coming from game footage and breaking it down.

The running game woes fall mainly on two guys head Larry Allen and Al Johnson

That is right Larry Allen is a liablity on the run and so is AL

Larry Allen from what I have seen whiffed on two diffent plays as the pulling guard. On two differnt short yardage runs he missed read his blocking and a lb was able to shot the hole both times and nake the tackles for loss or no gain. Allen and AL also allowed a dt to split there double team (Allen got out of poistion) the rb read the correct hole but when allen allowed the dt to split double team it became a 1 yard run. On Barbers big run in the 2nd qtr you can thank tucker Allen fell to the ground but Tucker was scrapping down the line and demolished Allens guy that realy sprung barber.

AL Johnson had no one to block because KC seemed to run a lot of slants so AL kicks to second level lb who usally al push him and the LB just sheds him and makes the tackle. I seen more guys shed AL Johnson to make a tackle preventing big running plays or very little yards. This is a constant theme for AL he just sucks

I will follow up with even more stuff as I rewatch more and more plays. Sorry I do not have it al done now but hey the process is long tedious and then throw in work; cub scouts and my Aikido and holidays and stuff makes it hard.

Any thoughts;questions or disagreements etc please post them.
I will try to answer any questions I can ?


Right now if you want to fix the oline problems we need to replace AL and Allen. Center and LG

If Flo comes back healthy next year I say move Tucker inside to LG. Tucker is the best Run blocker on the team on several plays he destorys guys. The one that sticks out is when AL got the holding call Tucker destorys his guy so bad he push him all the way down to actually rub out AL's guy who he has grabed one of his feet lol

 

[Eskimo]

I have long thought that Allen has been getting by on reputation and the odd devastating run block he gets on a DT who tries to engage him head on. He has a tremendous inability to sustain his blocks due to poor balance and lateral agility and is very hit or miss when he pulls. I would not be the least bit upset if he is cut at the end of the season so that we can move in another direction - I cannot justify us continuing to pay him LT money to play like an average OG.

I am a bit surprised that Al J performed so poorly on making blocks in space against LBs as that had been his strength last year. I do remember him failing to make a block a few times this year but did not realize it was this prevalent.

Your comments about Tucker at LG next year are intriguing as that was his original position in college. I have long maintained that he could be a devastating straight-ahead maluer who would also be adept at pulling due to his unusual speed for a man his size. I guess the main concern has been that has breakdowns have been mental and he would have to make more complicated reads at OG than he does at LT. It wouldn't hurt to put him in an open competition with Peterman for the spot.

Overall, my preferences are still to draft an LT in the first round next year if a good one drops to us because I don't think Flo can play the position too much longer and is better suited to RT anyways. His contract will be up in two years anyway so we need to groom a replacement. If the kid isn't ready for LT next year he could probably play RT and put Pettiti on the bench for a year to work on his technique.

I would not be against bringing in a veteran center but don't believe we should break the bank at this position - just bring in a smart guy who can make the calls and doesn't consistently get bulldozed into the backfield. This would relegate either Al Johnson or Andre Gurode to be the backup center.

My proposed lineup next year:

Flo
Tucker or Peterman
FA center
Rivera
1st round rookie

Backups:

Pettiti
Tucker or Peterman
Al Johnson or Gurode
Columbo
Another draft pick (guard)

 

[Kangaroo]

I am a bit surprised that Al J performed so poorly on making blocks in space against LBs as that had been his strength last year. I do remember him failing to make a block a few times this year but did not realize it was this prevalent.

Eskimo it is not that Al does not get to the space on whiffs but they just shed him like he was not there; I expect it every now and then from any linemen but seems to be a constant with AL.

 

[Eskimo]

Eskimo it is not that Al does not get to the space on whiffs but they just shed him like he was not there; I expect it every now and then from any linemen but seems to be a constant with AL.

That's kind of embarassing for an OL to get shed easily by LBs - he should have 40 pounds and a head of steam when going up against them.

I still remember him last year getting some good blocks downfield for us on some of JJs big runs. Could this be a lingering side effect after his surgery? Regardless, I don't think he is good enough to be a quality starter in the league right now.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

I stated a few weeks ago that Allen was the weak link on this OL and was shouted down as an idiot, but you are correct. There are more plays that Allen whiffs on, falls down or simply doesn't block anyone than I can count.

 

[Hoov]

I dont have any games on film to go back and watch in slow motion......but here's an image that seems to stand out in my mind. Defender blows through the middle and hits RB for a loss, as the RB is going down i see LA standing there watching, hands down at his side or on his hips.

Seems like he has no ability to recover, in other words if he makes the wrong move or takes a wrong step he just turns and watches the play fall apart, and sometimes it looks like he drives forward to hit someone and he misses falls down, like they are waiting for him and when he lunges, the defender steps aside and grabs him and uses LA's momentum against him, like in martial arts where you dont block someones attack head on, you sidestep and let their own momentum get them off balance then push or throw them down.

 

[Mike 1967]

Excellent thread.

This thread is a prime example of why I am a consistent member to this site.

Good Stuff guys !

 

[AbeBeta]

Ok. Now, I'm not entirely sold on Allen being the weak link. However, we can cut him loose and not worry about the cap hit -- I think he's hitting his 4 year of his deal which was a 6 year extension with a 12 million SB. That would mean if we cut him at the end of the season, we'd take about a 6 million dollar cap hit. But.... he's got a base salary that is pretty high too. Likely, at least 6 million. So it would be a wash.

But what about Al. He showed last year that he could play pretty well. What exactly is his problem this year? Would those problems go away if he was flanked by better guards?

 

[theogt]

I would not be against bringing in a veteran center but don't believe we should break the bank at this position - just bring in a smart guy who can make the calls and doesn't consistently get bulldozed into the backfield.

Well with LA gone, that would definitely free up a nice chunk of change to bring in a talented FA. How about LeCharles Bentley? He'd fit in nicely with your list.

Flo
Tucker or Peterman
[Bentley]
Rivera
1st round rookie

Backups:

Pettiti
Tucker or Peterman
Al Johnson or Gurode
Columbo
Another draft pick (guard)

 

[AbeBeta]

Well with LA gone, that would definitely free up a nice chunk of change to bring in a talented FA. How about LeCharles Bentley? He'd fit in nicely with your list.

Bentley again.

He didn't play so great Monday night. He remains a good run blocker and a below average pass blocker. That was his evaluation coming out of college and he hasn't gotten better (but hey, he didn't get worse like the picked several spots before him Andre Gurode).

I don't like Bentley -- I do like the idea of getting a guy who can swing between C and G though. Bentley can do that but I don't think he's going to get serious interest from us.

 

[Big Country]

I stated a few weeks ago that Allen was the weak link on this OL and was shouted down as an idiot, but you are correct. There are more plays that Allen whiffs on, falls down or simply doesn't block anyone than I can count.

I'm on your side SS... I totally think LA's legs are completely shot... he's only about 1/2 of what he used to be... That may be a tad better than an avarage joe O-lineman, but nonetheless that position needs an upgrade after 11 years don't you think?!

I keep seeing your avatar and I thought UHF was a friggin' riot... I'm going to go rent it this weekend... LMAO... "NOW YOU GET TO DRINK FROM THE FIIIIRE HOOOOOSE!!!!!!!"

 

[Big Country]

This is what I ahve seen from the Chiefs game

I have not finished my total analysis I am only on the second qtr I am watching each play about 20 times watching each olinemen charting what they are doing taking very detailed notes. My statements are coming from game footage and breaking it down.

The running game woes fall mainly on two guys head Larry Allen and Al Johnson

That is right Larry Allen is a liablity on the run and so is AL

Larry Allen from what I have seen whiffed on two diffent plays as the pulling guard. On two differnt short yardage runs he missed read his blocking and a lb was able to shot the hole both times and nake the tackles for loss or no gain. Allen and AL also allowed a dt to split there double team (Allen got out of poistion) the rb read the correct hole but when allen allowed the dt to split double team it became a 1 yard run. On Barbers big run in the 2nd qtr you can thank tucker Allen fell to the ground but Tucker was scrapping down the line and demolished Allens guy that realy sprung barber.

AL Johnson had no one to block because KC seemed to run a lot of slants so AL kicks to second level lb who usally al push him and the LB just sheds him and makes the tackle. I seen more guys shed AL Johnson to make a tackle preventing big running plays or very little yards. This is a constant theme for AL he just sucks

I will follow up with even more stuff as I rewatch more and more plays. Sorry I do not have it al done now but hey the process is long tedious and then throw in work; cub scouts and my Aikido and holidays and stuff makes it hard.

Any thoughts;questions or disagreements etc please post them.
I will try to answer any questions I can ?


Right now if you want to fix the oline problems we need to replace AL and Allen. Center and LG

If Flo comes back healthy next year I say move Tucker inside to LG. Tucker is the best Run blocker on the team on several plays he destorys guys. The one that sticks out is when AL got the holding call Tucker destorys his guy so bad he push him all the way down to actually rub out AL's guy who he has grabed one of his feet lol

Kangaroo, I'd like to nominate you for offensive quality control for the Cowboys next year... What a job eyeing Tucker at the guard spot... Boy I wouldn't mind that scenario at all... Him having played RT for two seasons means he is pretty athletic... imagine him at guard... WOW...

My quick question... against KC last weekend...did you see the time when Al blocked the DT quickly, then got to the second level and had to fall to his knees and grope at the LB just to get in his way? I also saw LA on his keester more times than I care to... Plus, is it my imagination, or is LA the most susceptible to run blitzes... He can maul 1 guy, but a fast LBer can sure blow right by... Confuse him enough now, and you can run stunts right by him as well... What did you see on that one with Al falling on his knees???

Anyhoo, great job, Kang!! I'd be glad to be a reference if you ever need me to.

 

[AbeBeta]

Well with LA gone, that would definitely free up a nice chunk of change to bring in a talented FA.

Not true -- cutting LA isn't going to pay for an FA.

My rough calculations calculations follow -- i'm sure Adam can give exact #s but I doubt I'm far off here.

He's got a salary of, let's say 6 millionish for next year. The cap hit if we keep him is the salary plus about 2 million of his pro-rated signing bonus (12 million over 6 years). So that's a 8 million cap charge if he's here.

If we cut him, the remainder of his bonus is charged to the cap -- that's 3 years of 2 million a year for a 6 million dollar "dead money" hit. (Note: this is what good cap management looks like -- the last few years of the deal allow you to cut and break even or make up some cap space)

By cutting LA we save 2 million. It's something, but 2 million doesn't buy you a talented FA. A talented interior lineman would get somewhere between 4 and 5 million a year. So we'd be increasing our spending on the line.

 

[Eskimo]

Not true -- cutting LA isn't going to pay for an FA.

My rough calculations calculations follow -- i'm sure Adam can give exact #s but I doubt I'm far off here.

He's got a salary of, let's say 6 millionish for next year. The cap hit if we keep him is the salary plus about 2 million of his pro-rated signing bonus (12 million over 6 years). So that's a 8 million cap charge if he's here.

If we cut him, the remainder of his bonus is charged to the cap -- that's 3 years of 2 million a year for a 6 million dollar "dead money" hit. (Note: this is what good cap management looks like -- the last few years of the deal allow you to cut and break even or make up some cap space)

By cutting LA we save 2 million. It's something, but 2 million doesn't buy you a talented FA. A talented interior lineman would get somewhere between 4 and 5 million a year. So we'd be increasing our spending on the line.

According to NFLPA Allen's salary in 2006 is $3.5M and in 2007 is $2.5M. Others had brought up the speculation that he had a roster bonus which is due in 2006. If there are no roster bonuses, his cap charges the next two years would be $5.5M in 2006 and $4.5M in 2007. I guess the way to view it is whether you would rather have Allen for two years or $6M in cap space (the bonus money is gone and will not be seen again).

I just think his limitations in blocking severely restrict the whole OL and the schemes that we can run. I would much rather have an OG that could perform all the duties expected of him in this offense but who wasn't a dominant 1-on-1 drive blocker. I think the offense as a whole would be better off.

 

[AbeBeta]

According to NFLPA Allen's salary in 2006 is $3.5M and in 2007 is $2.5M. Others had brought up the speculation that he had a roster bonus which is due in 2006. If there are no roster bonuses, his cap charges the next two years would be $5.5M in 2006 and $4.5M in 2007. I guess the way to view it is whether you would rather have Allen for two years or $6M in cap space (the bonus money is gone and will not be seen again).

That can't reflect his true compensation.

There are several conflicting reports on the extension -- some indicated it was through 2008, some through 2007. All indicated a 12.3 million SB. The numbers listed by the NFLPA are about 6 million short of the reported 37 million the contract was reported to be worth -- so there's another 6 million tied to his deal somewhere. There would have to be roster bonuses to meet that 6 million -- but that would not be at all inconsistent with what the team has done in the past to motivate renegotiations.

Though if the deal is actually through 2007, then my #'s are off. The accelerated bonus cap hit would be about 4 million, not 6.

However, I don't think it is possible that his cap #s for next year can be the 5.5 and 6.5 you cite - because of the roster bonus issue. Though even if that roster bonus is say, 2 million next year, we would now be looking at an 7.5 million hit to keep him and a 4 million hit to cut him. So we'd save 3.5 million in that scenario. If there is no bonus, we'd lose about 500k to cut him (but I don't think that can be the case).

With that new information, I think it looks worse for LA than I thought at first. 3.5 mill in savings is enough to pay for a very solid FA.

 

[InDakWeTrust]

That can't reflect his true compensation.

There are several conflicting reports on the extension -- some indicated it was through 2008, some through 2007. All indicated a 12.3 million SB. The numbers listed by the NFLPA are about 6 million short of the reported 37 million the contract was reported to be worth -- so there's another 6 million tied to his deal somewhere. There would have to be roster bonuses to meet that 6 million -- but that would not be at all inconsistent with what the team has done in the past to motivate renegotiations.

Though if the deal is actually through 2007, then my #'s are off. The accelerated bonus cap hit would be about 4 million, not 6.

However, I don't think it is possible that his cap #s for next year can be the 5.5 and 6.5 you cite - because of the roster bonus issue. Though even if that roster bonus is say, 2 million next year, we would now be looking at an 7.5 million hit to keep him and a 4 million hit to cut him. So we'd save 3.5 million in that scenario. If there is no bonus, we'd lose about 500k to cut him (but I don't think that can be the case).

With that new information, I think it looks worse for LA than I thought at first. 3.5 mill in savings is enough to pay for a very solid FA.

Out of all of this Rivera doesnt get any blame for the Oline problems?

We need to keep LA to bridge the gap between him and another OG like Tucker or Peterman. After that we still need another to replace Rivera soon. Al Johnson didnt suck last year, so either he has regressed or the players around him arent playing up to their potential. RT and RG are the bigger holes than LG. No team should have to depend on a 6th round pick to start. We must draft at least one OT high this offseason, then sign/draft a backup C and sign/draft a midlevel guard like the Bears Terrence Metcalf or the Pats Stephen Neal. Then we need to fire Sparano and hire someone who knows what they are doing.

 

[Eskimo]

Out of all of this Rivera doesnt get any blame for the Oline problems?

Rivera has been every bit as bad as LA this year so he is not off the hook. There are some mitigating factors with his back injury. He also seems to fit the type of OL BP wants to build.

He is also very difficult to cut at this point due to the ridiculous SB we gave a 33 year old OG with two bad knees ($9M).

I really thought JJ grew some brain cells since he signed LA to that stupid contract, but the moment he had some cap space he blew it on another injured, old OG.

 

[AbeBeta]

Out of all of this Rivera doesnt get any blame for the Oline problems?

Oh Rivera gets big time blame. But cutting him would be stupid. We gave him what, a 10 million SB? We'd just double his cap hit if we cut him. It just isn't an option at this point.

Me, I'm hoping that this season's poor performance on his part reflects a loss of strength following his back surgery. He's a quality individual who makes it his business to help the younger players. Rivera, I can at least see bouncing back and making a contribution. BP even suggested in a PC a few weeks ago that he could play some center if needed. Hmm, center.

In Rivera's defense, he isn't exactly flanked by all-stars. He's got a 2nd year guy who seems to have regressed on his left and a pretty raw rookie on his right.

 

[MapleLeaf]

...you may be cited for blasphemy on this board.

Allen is a shell of his former self and I dropped the "dump Allen flag" last year knowing it was going to be difficult to find others who agreed.

BP's difficulty with Allen's training regimen was no smoke screen and it definitely shows. The man is becoming terrible in space and what was once a strong suit in his game, his quick feet, are all but gone now.

He doesn't pancake guys anymore and he definitely doesn't pull and blow up guys out of the play. The football ailment known as "Allenitis" hasn't been seen in Big D for at least four years. The last three have been reputation only.

He needs to lose upper strength bulk and work on his legs. If he doesn't watch for him to fade as the season progresses and he tires. We've been in our fair share of dogfights this year and you need a strong players from the waist down to make it to the finish line.

Releasng Allen may be a reasonable option this offseason if we have another alternative.

 

[Teague31]

i watched the end around TD to Glenn several times. LA missed not one, but two blocks on that play. amazing that Glenn was able to score.