One scouts take on Escobar

[Hoofbite]

Your mistake is conflating us with the Patriots and exactly how they run things. They run things based on their personnel. They don't have a Dez Bryant and they don't have a Miles Austin. They had Wes Welker and some mid tier wide receivers. That is why they had to rely on their 2nd tight end so much.

Our team is not like that. Not only do we have Dez and Miles, but we drafted Terrance Williams. We're a much more wide receiver oriented team. That being said it's a 2 tight end system because that is our base offense, rather than using a fullback.

Your logic is like saying, we weren't a 3-4 because we were in the nickel defense half the time... Makes no sense.

You brought up the Patriots.

Aside from that, of course I would compare to the Patriots. They are the gold standard when it comes to 2TE offenses.

What you've done here is do nothing but strengthen the case against Dallas being so committed to the 2TE offense. They have the players that will negate the implementation of such an offense. You've also, perhaps unintentionally, raised the very question I asked on draft day. Why allocate resources to both the 2TE set and to a #3 WR when one of the players being on the field automatically means the other is not

I get it you're looking at numbers from pff, but I'm talking about actually watching the games. Do you realize that you can pass block and run a route in the same play? That is what you see Hernandez do quite a bit. He will chip or block and then release into a route often.

I'm not sure you're following. He RUN blocks nearly exclusively.

The example you provided though would do nothing but underestimate his actually blocking assignments, thereby increasing the need for good blocking on his part to make it work. This would require what from Escobar? That's right, more blocking.

Blocking 40% of the time isn't a lot. Which is my exact point with Escobar. He is primarily going to be used to run routes. And again to my point, Escobar isn't expected to be on the field every snap. So if that is people's expectations in judging him they are already off base.

Not a lot? Says you. What would you consider "a lot"?

He will be on the field when we go out into our 12 formation, which might be 50 percent of the time, it might be less than that. Then of that 50%, (giving him full snaps over hanna for this hypothetical), if he only blocks about 30-40% of the time, then that means he is only blocking in about 15-20 percent of our overall plays. Not a lot to get worked up over. And as he becomes a better blocker, you'll probably see him in the game a lot more.

I guess the first thing that should be hashed out is that Dallas has NEVER come close to 50% of their snaps from 2TE formations. I think Sturm had it in the mid 30s.

But the reality is that he is going to be splitting 12 formation reps with Hanna. So if we're in 12 formation 50 percent of the time, and they split evenly 50-50, that means Escobar is in the game 25 percent of the time. Imagine that he is blocking 30-40 percent of the time, and then you only get 7.5 to 10 percent of our run blocking plays with Escobar in the game.

Which is like 6 or 7 plays at most and not nearly enough for defenses to respect the threat of him blocking on an every down basis. Ultimately they'd play coverage against him and trade those 6 or 7 plays off in order to be better protected against a big passing play.

The situation was exactly reversed with Martellus. Dallas never utilized him in the passing game and had him block 60% of the time he was on the field. Teams simply played the run against him and ultimately the 2TE formation never panned out.

Not only is it fairly balanced, but as I said before, it doesn't require him to be the best blocker. You can put a DB on him, but that isn't going to degrade his ability to block them when the time comes. His ability to block a DB is going to be far greater than his ability to block a linebacker. Which still gives us the advantage in the running game that we seek.

And it also won't work. You can't have a 1-dimensional TE who comes in waving a giant flag with "passing play" written on it. Teams would trade 6 or 7 run plays any day of the week to be able to better cover a receiving threat.

You have to have a guy who can both block and run a route on every down. Otherwise you cannot create a mismatch at the line.

That's really how the 2TE system works. You get to the line and adjust based on how the defense is playing you. If they're covering with a LB you audible into a passing play to create the mismatch that you seek. If they're covering with a DB, you audible into a running play to create the mismatch that you seek.

The TE has to be able to do both or else the defense will simply guard against the biggest threat.

 

[Galian Beast]

As TwoDeep said, they brought him here predominantly to catch passes. They knew he would have to develop as a blocker.

It wasn't necessarily about camouflaging Escobar, rather they used him mostly to block so he could get more prepared for the season. He was still 3rd on the team in receptions, but I don't think he got thrown a single pass by Romo.

When they had him in there with the first team, he was used to block. That clearly won't be the case when we move to the 12 during the season. You look at Hanna and he only caught two passes the entire preseason. If you think that is indicative of what we're going to do during the regular season, you're just not paying much attention.

 

[Hoofbite]

Or maybe they are planning for the days when Witten isn't with the team.

Which makes even less sense because Escobar will hit free agency before Witten retires. You don't plan multiple years in advance for the TE position. Most teams have an average TE, few have great one's. Lack of a good TE isn't something that will cripple your team.

 

[TwoDeep3]

Which makes even less sense because Escobar will hit free agency before Witten retires. You don't plan multiple years in advance for the TE position. Most teams have an average TE, few have great one's. Lack of a good TE isn't something that will cripple your team.

Really? So if they groom a guy into his replacement, and get a year or two with both of them together, how is that bad?

 

[big dog cowboy]

I was disappointed that Dallas did not move him off the line of scrimmage during preseason play, but I think it’s a pretty safe assumption that he’ll see plenty of time in the slot when the Cowboys run with 12 personnel (one RB and two TEs).

Gee thanks for the insight Mr. Obvious.

 

[TwoDeep3]

I think people are assuming something about this 12 formation that just ain't so.

 

[FiveRings]

Jason's advantage has never been speed or athleticism. He's just been a pure technician who understands coverages and knows how to work himself open.

Escobar is undoubtedly more athletic and fluid but doesn't have the experience to get the most out of it. He's just a little too raw in that regard which isn't exactly a shocker because all pass catches are.

The last part of the piece is what I have been saying. So long as he can't bock his ability to get reps is limited.

I go even a step further and say that as long as he can't block and the defense can adjust to him coming into and out of the lineup, his ability to create mismatches is largely dampened.

And being the best blocker at his position in the NFL, and the toughest guy on the field every time he was out there

 

[Galian Beast]

You brought up the Patriots.

Aside from that, of course I would compare to the Patriots. They are the gold standard when it comes to 2TE offenses.

What you've done here is do nothing but strengthen the case against Dallas being so committed to the 2TE offense. They have the players that will negate the implementation of such an offense. You've also, perhaps unintentionally, raised the very question I asked on draft day. Why allocate resources to both the 2TE set and to a #3 WR when one of the players being on the field automatically means the other is not



I'm not sure you're following. He RUN blocks nearly exclusively.

The example you provided though would do nothing but underestimate his actually blocking assignments, thereby increasing the need for good blocking on his part to make it work. This would require what from Escobar? That's right, more blocking.



Not a lot? Says you. What would you consider "a lot"?



I guess the first thing that should be hashed out is that Dallas has NEVER come close to 50% of their snaps from 2TE formations. I think Sturm had it in the mid 30s.



Which is like 6 or 7 plays at most and not nearly enough for defenses to respect the threat of him blocking on an every down basis. Ultimately they'd play coverage against him and trade those 6 or 7 plays off in order to be better protected against a big passing play.

The situation was exactly reversed with Martellus. Dallas never utilized him in the passing game and had him block 60% of the time he was on the field. Teams simply played the run against him and ultimately the 2TE formation never panned out.



And it also won't work. You can't have a 1-dimensional TE who comes in waving a giant flag with "passing play" written on it. Teams would trade 6 or 7 run plays any day of the week to be able to better cover a receiving threat.

You have to have a guy who can both block and run a route on every down. Otherwise you cannot create a mismatch at the line.

That's really how the 2TE system works. You get to the line and adjust based on how the defense is playing you. If they're covering with a LB you audible into a passing play to create the mismatch that you seek. If they're covering with a DB, you audible into a running play to create the mismatch that you seek.

The TE has to be able to do both or else the defense will simply guard against the biggest threat.

I brought up the Patriots to describe how they actual use a player, not their entire offense. And from games I actually watched, not just looking up numbers on PFF.

The only thing I've shown is that you don't understand what it means we we say the Cowboys are moving to a two tight end system. It doesn't mean that is going to be our offense 100 percent of the time. It simply means that we aren't going to use the fullback in this offense. And that two tight ends is our base offense.

Why allocate resources to both 2te and 3wr? Because we want Romo to have numerous options regardless of what we're doing on offense... silly question.

I'm not sure you're following. There is a difference between run blocking exclusively, and chipping while going into a route. The problem is you're looking at pff and it doesn't tell you x player chipped or blocked before going into a route. It just says how many times they pass blocked, ran routes, or run blocked. They aren't always mutually exclusive, specifically in this case.

Expect more 12 formation than we've done in the past. I think this was obvious by the drafting of Escobar. Something you fail to understand. We no longer have a tight end. How many times did we go into the 21 formation. Add that to how many times we were in the 12 formation, and you now have what our base offense is...

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Galian Beast]

I think people are assuming something about this 12 formation that just ain't so.

They think it has something to do with when we go three wide. It doesn't.

If you add up all of our plays from the 21 and the 12, they could see that. It's what happens when people base their conclusions on perception.

 

[DFWJC]

Jason's advantage has never been speed or athleticism. He's just been a pure technician who understands coverages and knows how to work himself open.

Escobar is undoubtedly more athletic and fluid but doesn't have the experience to get the most out of it. He's just a little too raw in that regard which isn't exactly a shocker because all pass catches are.

The last part of the piece is what I have been saying. So long as he can't bock his ability to get reps is limited.

I go even a step further and say that as long as he can't block and the defense can adjust to him coming into and out of the lineup, his ability to create mismatches is largely dampened.

You kind of just described Cole Beasely.
Kind of...

 

[Galian Beast]

http://cowboysblog.***BANNED-URL***/2010/09/bob-sturm-decoding-jason-garre.html/

a bit dated since I can't find one of the newer breakdowns, but you'll get the gist.

You can see that we used s11 the most. 293 snaps

but what happens when you combine

181 snaps from 22, and 167 snaps from 12, 104 snaps from 21, 118 snaps from s12, 64 snaps from 13

634 snaps... with 2 or more tight ends on the field (note the 2nd tight end replaces the fullback).

That gives you a 2:1 ratio of 12 (+13) versus 11.

 

[Galian Beast]

http://sturminator.blogspot.com/2012/02/decoding-garrett-final-data-2011.html

found 2011 numbers

Plays with 3 or more wide receivers: 363
Plays with 2 or less wide receivers: 630

Again, nearly a 2:1 ratio.

 

[Future]

The last part of the piece is what I have been saying. So long as he can't bock his ability to get reps is limited.

I go even a step further and say that as long as he can't block and the defense can adjust to him coming into and out of the lineup, his ability to create mismatches is largely dampened.

Agree that his opportunities will be limited, but defenses will still have a tough time accounting for him. He's still going to be really tough to match up with even if you think he's never going to have to block. Cant teach 6' 6"

 

[Galian Beast]

The mistake is definitely that these people don't realize that we no longer have a fullback. That the S21 and 21 and 22 and S22 formations no longer exist from the standpoint that a fullback is employed.

 

[jobberone]

The 2TE strategy is to never take either of them off the field any more than you have to. Why would you? If you have 2TEs who are better receivers than your #3 WR, why would take either of them off the field?

In 2011, Gronkowski was in on 94% of the offensive snaps and Hernandez was in on 86% after accounting for the 2 games he missed.

If there was never a plan for him to be an every-down player, the Cowboys aren't running the 2TE offense correctly.

That's just a misunderstanding of our use of the 12.

 

[Hoofbite]

http://cowboysblog.***BANNED-URL***/2010/09/bob-sturm-decoding-jason-garre.html/

a bit dated since I can't find one of the newer breakdowns, but you'll get the gist.

You can see that we used s11 the most. 293 snaps

but what happens when you combine

181 snaps from 22, and 167 snaps from 12, 104 snaps from 21, 118 snaps from s12, 64 snaps from 13

634 snaps... with 2 or more tight ends on the field (note the 2nd tight end replaces the fullback).

That gives you a 2:1 ratio of 12 (+13) versus 11.

http://sturminator.blogspot.com/2012/02/decoding-garrett-final-data-2011.html

found 2011 numbers

Plays with 3 or more wide receivers: 363
Plays with 2 or less wide receivers: 630

Again, nearly a 2:1 ratio.

I had mistaken bob's graphic. He was referring to 12 only, it looks like.

http://i5.***BLOCKED***/albums/y188/thehoofbite/ScreenShot2013-09-02at75417PM.jpg

http://sturminator.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-brief-history-of-12-personnel.html

 

[DFWJC]

I'm pulling for Gavin.
But at this point it should be pretty clear that I was not a fan of using the 47 th overall pick on him.
There were a bunch of dlineman that I liked in that 2nd-4th round range that we could have grabbed...and maybe even after a sall trade down while adding extra picks.

Still, at this point, Can't go back in time, so cheer for our guy.

 

[Galian Beast]

I had mistaken bob's graphic. He was referring to 12 only, it looks like.

http://i5.***BLOCKED***/albums/y188/thehoofbite/ScreenShot2013-09-02at75417PM.jpg

http://sturminator.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-brief-history-of-12-personnel.html

Now add S22 and 22. Also add S13 and 13.

 

[Hoofbite]

That's just a misunderstanding of our use of the 12.

In what way?

You can't justify all the resources dedicated to the 2TE offense while at the same time saying the team isn't going to be utilized that often.

"We're going to emphasize the 2TE offense so we can run it about half the time".

That doesn't make any sense at all. It's either effective and becomes the predominant feature of your offense or it's ineffective and you don't use it. Saying it can be both really effective and sparingly used is irrational. Why would you not use something that works?

I don't think they'll ever be close to NE in terms of snaps for each TE because they have capable receivers. That said, if you don't think they're trying to close that gap, the only alternative is that they're wasting their time by dedicating resources to something that they aren't going to get the most out of.

 

[Hoofbite]

Now add S22 and 22. Also add S13 and 13.

I understand where I misinterpreted Bob's chart. They use 2TEs more than I had stated.