opinions on Ratliff needed

dadymat

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im not understanding all the talk of moving Rat away from NT......i dont understand why.....he improved when he was moved to the position.....hes a monster at it.....and a pro bowler.....thats not a problem positition for us I just dont know why we should try to fix a position that isnt broken.....

fill me in...
 

HanD

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my personal opinion...he is a VERY good NT. especially on passing downs. where we miss something is short yardage. Ratliff is good at penetrating the line, but not moving the line. 3-4 NTs are usually stout and can move 1 or two OL into the backfield. See wilfork, ferg and jamal williams. I don't think ratliff's emergence had as much to do with moving and playing the NT position as it did getting playing time. He was forced into the rotation. I think he would have done just as well at DE if given time over canty or spears. Count me as one who isn't saying ratliff was a problem (obviously) or that we can get someone who will put up better numbers. Just that our DL would be more of a factor with a stout NT and ratliff playing DE. Then we could move ratliff back to NT on passing downs.

I was discussing this in another thread about JFerg. I would rather have Rat/JFerg/Spears than Spears/Rat/Canty. then on 3rd downs or passing downs, you shift Rat to NT like he's been playing this year. the JFerg trade is over, but Rat's versatility could do well if he is at DE on ware's side. Do you put a G on Rat and a T on ware? Do you put the T on Rat and TE or back on Ware? all difficult tasks if you have a stout NT that commands a double team IMO.
 

dcfanatic

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Because those numbers he put up can be improved by getting more 'one on one' matchups against Guards and Tackles from the DE spot.

And I know Ratliff is great at getting penetration, but I don't think he's that great at holding the point of attack which is really what the NT should be doing in a 3-4 defense most of the time.

We probably can't lose with him at either spot, but if we can get him into more situations where he can be even more dynamic and stick a big NT in the middle then why not improve the front seven by doing so.
 

Eddie

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Not sure how we're going to FIX out DL by moving our Pro Bowl DT to DE.
 

Clove

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dcfanatic;2573085 said:
Because those numbers he put up can be improved by getting more 'one on one' matchups against Guards and Tackles from the DE spot.

And I know Ratliff is great at getting penetration, but I don't think he's that great at holding the point of attack which is really what the NT should be doing in a 3-4 defense most of the time.

We probably can't lose with him at either spot, but if we can get him into more situations where he can be even more dynamic and stick a big NT in the middle then why not improve the front seven by doing so.
I agree with this, and the one before him.
 

masomenos

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I would say that Ratliff is most valuable as a NT in possible passing situations because his pressure limits the QB's ability to step up in the pocket. That pressure up the middle allows Ware to get more sacks. If you can find some beast of a DT to replace him on obvious running downs, well I am all for that. Ratliff should not be moved from full time DT to full time DE though, that would hurt our defense.
 
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Sorry but I'm all for drafting a space eating NT and moving Jay Ratliff to DE, he'll be just as productive at DE because he's got a huge motor. You can always move him inside on obvious passing downs.
 

lane

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dcfanatic;2573085 said:
Because those numbers he put up can be improved by getting more 'one on one' matchups against Guards and Tackles from the DE spot.

And I know Ratliff is great at getting penetration, but I don't think he's that great at holding the point of attack which is really what the NT should be doing in a 3-4 defense most of the time.

We probably can't lose with him at either spot, but if we can get him into more situations where he can be even more dynamic and stick a big NT in the middle then why not improve the front seven by doing so.


very nice post.

i just wish we would go back to the 4-3 that i spent so many years watching.

but we won't anytime soon i guess.

a man can dream though can't he?
 

JordanTaber

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He's pretty good at holding the double team when he's actually lined up in a gap to do that. Most of the time, however, Wade had both he and Tank just going head-up with the center. I don't think either of them dominated the center the way they should have, but that really wasn't the weakness in the run defense.

The weak links were Marcus Spears and the tackling of the secondary. You want to stop the outside run? Get good run support corners. You want to be able to consistently stop the run all-around? You not only have to have a good tackling secondary, but you have to bring one or more of them down in the box on virtually every running down and have them play it aggressively.

Watch an Eagles game and note how often defensive backs are making plays at or near the line (or in the backfield) against the run.

Watch a Ravens game and watch how active Jim Leonhard is versus the run.

Or the Steelers and note that Troy Polamalu is the key to their run defense, not Hampton.

Or the Vikings, where Antoine Winfield is constantly making plays against it.


All that said, I wouldn't be opposed to moving Ratliff to left end if it's to replace Spears.

By the way, Ratliff got most of his sacks playing defensive tackle in a 4-3 alignment (usually LDT) on passing downs.
 

28 Joker

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I'm not against drafting a big, space eating nose tackle to play on short yardage and spell Ratliff.

However, Wade Phillips did give Jay Ratliff one on one opportunities by scheming.

Remember the second Commanders game. Good ole Wade pulled out the old Bears defense or 46.

The 46 allowed Ratliff to get matched up one on one against Casey Raback (a center, not a guard or tackle), and Ratliff sacked Campbell for an 8 yard loss the very first time it was called. Phillips had the DEs occupy the guards while Ratliff had a great matchup.

Kevin Burnett benefited from the 46 alignment, because three people covered him up; therefore, Burnett was free to chase RBs, drop into deep zone, or cover tightends in man coverage. Burnett blanketed Cooley when he took him out of Buddy Ryan's 46 defense. Cooley caught some balls when Dallas wasn't in this set.
 

jobberone

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Ratliff is necessary for Wade's defense where the gaps are attacked. I don't think he is big enough to play straight up.
 

Idgit

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Rat's a beast. How often do you move a probowl player at his peak and have him make a bigger impact for the team at the new position? I'm all in favor of drafting a talented backup for him, and then moving Rat if we're trying later in the year to get all of our best linemen in a crowded lineup, but I don't understand the point of trying to move him for the sake of moving him.

I can see that the 'holding the point of attack' theme is going to get bandied about this offseason, and I really wish it wouldn't, because it doesn't hold any water.
 

theogt

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dcfanatic;2573085 said:
Because those numbers he put up can be improved by getting more 'one on one' matchups against Guards and Tackles from the DE spot.

And I know Ratliff is great at getting penetration, but I don't think he's that great at holding the point of attack which is really what the NT should be doing in a 3-4 defense most of the time.

We probably can't lose with him at either spot, but if we can get him into more situations where he can be even more dynamic and stick a big NT in the middle then why not improve the front seven by doing so.
You're not going to improve his production by going against a tackle rather than a center. And he doesn't get that many double teams as a NT (probably the majority of his plays he doesn't see a double team), so I don't know that you'd see production actually increase from the DE position.

And Ratliff is fantastic at holding the point of attack, so I have no idea what you're talking about there.
 

CalCBFan

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ThreeSportStar80;2573112 said:
Sorry but I'm all for drafting a space eating NT and moving Jay Ratliff to DE, he'll be just as productive at DE because he's got a huge motor. You can always move him inside on obvious passing downs.
I totally agree, and I think that because he is smaller, that over time, he will get beaten up and have his career shortened. I think he and Spears should switch places, but I don't think Spears will produce 1/10th of what Jay does.

Didn't BP have Spears pegged as a NT when he wanted to draft him at #11, but Jerry forced him to take Ware?...
 

Shinywalrus

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It's tough. As others have said, he certainly excels in certain elements of a defensive line role (he's probably one of the top 3-5 pass rushing interior linemen in the NFL right now. Without exaggeration.), but he isn't anything special in providing a clean near space for the inside linebackers. One could argue that it's worth it, generally speaking, as long as you can get a couple ILBs that have the ability to shed blocks and move through trash quickly, but we really don't have either of those, despite Bradie's emergence as a more versatile player on the inside.

But I'm not so sure about Jay at DE. The advantage he gets from his quickness and ability to make himself skinny through gaps in blocking schemes will be different at end. Yes, he'll get more single blocking assignments, but this isn't Madden, guys. On the defensive line, every position has its own quirks, and there's no guarantee that Jay would be as effective on the right or left - ask him yourself. When it was being contemplated earlier this year, he expressed great discomfort at being moved from his place of comfort in the tight confines of the NT position.

Now, that's not to say that if a skilled NT comes through training camp that it wouldn't make sense to make the transition anyway. Jay's individual performance is only so important if the team is more effective...but I think it would take a lot to justify moving him. It's just a lot easier to find 3-tech college lineman you can toss in at 34 DE than it is to find someone to replace Jay at NT.
 

YosemiteSam

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theogt;2573402 said:
You're not going to improve his production by going against a tackle rather than a center. And he doesn't get that many double teams as a NT (probably the majority of his plays he doesn't see a double team), so I don't know that you'd see production actually increase from the DE position.

And Ratliff is fantastic at holding the point of attack, so I have no idea what you're talking about there.

If Ware or Spencer is on his hip, he won't be facing a tackle and if he has 320lbs of beef on his other hip playing NT he WILL be getting 1-on-1 matchups against a guard which is where he will really shine.

There is absolutely no question, Ratliff playing DE with a *real* NT is the optimal lineup.
 

Doomsday101

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dadymat;2573076 said:
im not understanding all the talk of moving Rat away from NT......i dont understand why.....he improved when he was moved to the position.....hes a monster at it.....and a pro bowler.....thats not a problem positition for us I just dont know why we should try to fix a position that isnt broken.....

fill me in...

I have no problem with Dallas moving him to the outside but in passing situation I would put in at NT because of his ability to put the pressure up the middle quickly. If I have a guy who can give me 7.5 sacks up the middle I'm going to continue using him at that position.
 

jobberone

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Shinywalrus;2573550 said:
It's tough. As others have said, he certainly excels in certain elements of a defensive line role (he's probably one of the top 3-5 pass rushing interior linemen in the NFL right now. Without exaggeration.), but he isn't anything special in providing a clean near space for the inside linebackers. One could argue that it's worth it, generally speaking, as long as you can get a couple ILBs that have the ability to shed blocks and move through trash quickly, but we really don't have either of those, despite Bradie's emergence as a more versatile player on the inside.

But I'm not so sure about Jay at DE. The advantage he gets from his quickness and ability to make himself skinny through gaps in blocking schemes will be different at end. Yes, he'll get more single blocking assignments, but this isn't Madden, guys. On the defensive line, every position has its own quirks, and there's no guarantee that Jay would be as effective on the right or left - ask him yourself. When it was being contemplated earlier this year, he expressed great discomfort at being moved from his place of comfort in the tight confines of the NT position.

Now, that's not to say that if a skilled NT comes through training camp that it wouldn't make sense to make the transition anyway. Jay's individual performance is only so important if the team is more effective...but I think it would take a lot to justify moving him. It's just a lot easier to find 3-tech college lineman you can toss in at 34 DE than it is to find someone to replace Jay at NT.

This is a good post. Jay plays the 3NT well on most plays. He's just not good enough or rather I'd say big enough to play a 2NT well. We need a 2NT on this team even if we do find a MLB who can help plug the middle really well.
 

HanD

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theogt;2573402 said:
You're not going to improve his production by going against a tackle rather than a center. And he doesn't get that many double teams as a NT (probably the majority of his plays he doesn't see a double team), so I don't know that you'd see production actually increase from the DE position.

And Ratliff is fantastic at holding the point of attack, so I have no idea what you're talking about there.

as others have said, he likely would be facing a guard as the T would be playing spencer or ware. and the exact point is that he doesn't get doubled teamed. he is too small to force a double team, which allows the extra guard to take on a LB or spears/canty. a hog at NT will force a double team by say the RG/C with spears on the RT ratliff on the LG and ware on the LT. having ware and ratliff one on one every play is real nice, throw in another LB coming up the middle or on the other side and NOW we're talking.
 
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