our LBs in coverage

[JoeyBoy718]

I won't pretend that I watch and study every snap and know all the ins-and-outs of a 3-4 defense. I was wondering how much of a role LBs play in pass protection in a 3-4. Is it just the ILBs that help out in pass protection covering TEs and RBs while the OLBs rush every time? Also, how are our LBers with regard to pass protection? Ware, Spencer, Butler, Lee, Carter, Connor... Also, is having young, fast ILBers (instead of Brooking and James) going to improve our overall coverage?

 

[speedkilz88]

The inside guys will tend to take deep drops in zone coverage. The SOLB (Spencer) will tend to cover the short flat a lot and rush only some of the time.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

The inside guys will tend to take deep drops in zone coverage. The SOLB (Spencer) will tend to cover the short flat a lot and rush only some of the time.

So if the SOLB only rushes some of the time, why does everybody hate Spencer for not getting 15 sacks a season?

 

[Galian Beast]

So if the SOLB only rushes some of the time, why does everybody hate Spencer for not getting 15 sacks a season?

The idea that Spencer is dropping into coverage a significant time is a myth created by the Spencer defense team.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

The idea that Spencer is dropping into coverage a significant time is a myth created by the Spencer defense team.

Then why does no 3-4 team have both OLBs who average 15+ sacks a game?

 

[JoeyBoy718]

By the way, this isn't a "hate on Spencer not getting pressure" thread. This is a "how would you guys rate our LBs in pass protection" thread.

 

[Galian Beast]

Then why does no 3-4 team have both OLBs who average 15+ sacks a game?

Because 15+ sack guys are extremely rare... That includes 4-3 teams.

Only 4 players in the nfl had more than 15 sacks last year.

only 17 players had more than 10 sacks last year.

You think that a lot of teams will have multiple high digit sack guys, when most teams don't even have one?

Intriguing...

 

[JoeyBoy718]

Because 15+ sack guys are extremely rare... That includes 4-3 teams.

Only 4 players in the nfl had more than 15 sacks last year.

only 17 players had more than 10 sacks last year.

You think that a lot of teams will have multiple high digit sack guys, when most teams don't even have one?

Intriguing...

I'm saying why does everybody hate Spencer for not being elite in sacks? All the elite 3-4 Ds have OLBs comparable to ours: an elite WOLB with 15-20 sacks and a SOLB with 7-10 or so sacks. If they're so rare to come by and most teams don't have one guy who can do it, how can we expect to have two guys who can?

 

[Galian Beast]

People are negative when it comes to Spencer because his production isn't high in sacks at all.

He had 6 sacks. And that is the highest he has been able to produce.

When you compare that to the Steelers they had two 9 and 9 guys. The Pats had two 10 and 10 guys.

I think the level of expectations for Spencer is that without facing prime double teams, that he should have more sacks. I don't think people would have as much of a problem with him if it hadn't been for Ratliff's drop off. That and some really bad penalties that he caused.

 

[Ren]

So if the SOLB only rushes some of the time, why does everybody hate Spencer for not getting 15 sacks a season?

Because he's not getting 15 sacks

 

[Eskimo]

I'm saying why does everybody hate Spencer for not being elite in sacks? All the elite 3-4 Ds have OLBs comparable to ours: an elite WOLB with 15-20 sacks and a SOLB with 7-10 or so sacks. If they're so rare to come by and most teams don't have one guy who can do it, how can we expect to have two guys who can?

I agree with most of your points made so far.

Part of our problem isn't that Ware/Spencer as a duo don't get enough sacks. The problem is all the other front 7 players have done very little the past two years. We got zero sacks from ILB last year. We got only a handful of sacks from the DL. We got only a couple of sacks out of the secondary. Some teams scheme to get a lot more sacks from these other positions but hardly got anything. I have to say that the blame for this has to rest with Ryan who has to do a better job of disguising blitzes and coverages to free up some blitzers to blast QBs.

Now when we go for our straight forward nickel 4-man rush we aren't generating enough pressure IMO. Teams will double Ware and handle everyone else 1-on-1 and give their QB 5 seconds to make a play on a fairly routine basis and that is not good enough. The problem last year for Ryan is that any time he sent extra people his CBs couldn't stay with their coverage for even 2 seconds. With the CBs upgraded he now has the ammunition to send waves of front 7 personnel after those QBs.

As for coverage last year I would rank our LBs:

Ware - very good but doesn't have to do it often.
Spencer - below average, always trailing, rarely makes a play on the ball
Lee - good and instinctive back there
James - very bad - just way too slow
Brooking - very bad - just way too slow
Carter - probably so bad they didn't even want to put him out there instead of Brooking and James.

Now this year they have added Connor whose strength isn't coverage but he is a lot quicker than James and an over the hill Brooking.

I also hope the light goes on for Carter who has all the athletic ability in the world but couldn't learn his responsibilities at all. I know the board doesn't want to hear it but signing Connor to that deal makes me think they aren't optimistic about him picking things up and he may be a ST player only. I still hope

 

[Eskimo]

People are negative when it comes to Spencer because his production isn't high in sacks at all.

He had 6 sacks. And that is the highest he has been able to produce.

When you compare that to the Steelers they had two 9 and 9 guys. The Pats had two 10 and 10 guys.

I think the level of expectations for Spencer is that without facing prime double teams, that he should have more sacks. I don't think people would have as much of a problem with him if it hadn't been for Ratliff's drop off. That and some really bad penalties that he caused.

Of the six sacks I think 2 were chase down a running QB close to the LOS - these are more sack like if he was the one who caused the initial pressure but he wasn't in those cases.

The other problem with Spencer is the price tag. If we were talking average starter pay of around $5M/yr or so I'd be okay with the contract. But $8.8M is just way too much for what he provides on the field. I think they couldn't come to a deal because he envisions himself a $8M/yr player like Ratliff and Witten which is a ludicrous demand.

I think we will part ways with him next year and I am glad the FO didn't ink him long-term. I though Kam Wimbley was a good option at $7M/yr for 4 years but I guess Ryan doesn't like him.

 

[Afigueroa22]

Carter - probably so bad they didn't even want to put him out there instead of Brooking and James.

Now this year they have added Connor whose strength isn't coverage but he is a lot quicker than James and an over the hill Brooking.

I also hope the light goes on for Carter who has all the athletic ability in the world but couldn't learn his responsibilities at all. I know the board doesn't want to hear it but signing Connor to that deal makes me think they aren't optimistic about him picking things up and he may be a ST player only. I still hope

I have a hard time taking your side when Mike Mayock will tell you otherwise. Bruce was a top 15 talent before the injury, there are no special teams guys taken in the top 15.

 

[Ren]

I have a hard time taking your side when Mike Mayock will tell you otherwise. Bruce was a top 15 talent before the injury, there are no special teams guys taken in the top 15.

Seems like if we hadn't traded away our 2nd round pick we would have targeted the ILB Seattle took according to some of the local media.

If true it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence when it comes to Carter

 

[Afigueroa22]

Seems like if we hadn't traded away our 2nd round pick we would have targeted the ILB Seattle took according to some of the local media.

If true it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence when it comes to Carter

I doubt it, I think we would've grabbed Konz.

 

[Eskimo]

I have a hard time taking your side when Mike Mayock will tell you otherwise. Bruce was a top 15 talent before the injury, there are no special teams guys taken in the top 15.

All I know is we didn't let the kid on the field last year unless it was to blitz out of the nickel package.

Most of the plays I saw from him in his highlight videos was running down some guy who had the ball.

I guess the question that has to be answered is if he has the instincts to defend the run and play zone coverage in our schemes. Last year he clearly couldn't and wasn't allowed to. He has been given a mulligan coming off the knee injury and missing TC/PS as a rookie. I really hope we haven't missed because he could be a catalytic player in the Derrick Brooks mold and I think that is what we had hoped we were getting when we drafted him.

All that draft rating stuff is irrelevant at this point. I know he was great on STs. I know he was lost out on the field last year. It's time to see what he can do with a full TC/PS to work on his game with our coaches but my reading of things is the staff has brought in Connor expecting him to start or at least play a lot of snaps on first and second down. It will be up to Carter to prove he is ready to start, IMO.

 

[Ren]

I doubt it, I think we would've grabbed Konz.

One of the reasons they kept bringing it up on the radio was to point out that that we where not targeting OL with that pick at all

 

[Jenky]

I doubt it, I think we would've grabbed Konz.

Bobby Wagner. I don't think there were plans to go offensive line at all.

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/cowboys/post/_/id/4692296/bobby-wagner-would-have-been-drafted

 

[Afigueroa22]

All that draft rating stuff is irrelevant at this point. I know he was great on STs. I know he was lost out on the field last year. It's time to see what he can do with a full TC/PS to work on his game with our coaches but my reading of things is the staff has brought in Connor expecting him to start or at least play a lot of snaps on first and second down. It will be up to Carter to prove he is ready to start, IMO.

I think the reason he was lost was because Rob's scheme is so complex. I mean we switched Sensy to FS because the duties at SS were too complex to learn with no offseason. Hopefully you are wrong but you are awakening a concern within me.

 

[Eskimo]

I think the reason he was lost was because Rob's scheme is so complex. I mean we switched Sensy to FS because the duties at SS were too complex to learn with no offseason. Hopefully you are wrong but you are awakening a concern within me.

Only the team knows what is really going on behind closed doors as they haven't talked about it too much.

We were woefully short on ILB depth after deciding not to invite Brooking or James back so we needed to sign somebody in FA. I find it interesting that we went after such a young guy and signed him for a few years when we just spent back to back second rounders on young guys at ILB. It suggests a bit of a lack of confidence in Carter to me.

We'll see what happens next year. At the very least I think Ryan and Eberfluss will have thought of some packages where he can come in and blitz or play man coverage against TEs or RBs but we are handcuffing the defense if we believe he can't handle his zone responsibilities as the QBs will automatically know the coverages when he is in the game or what our strategy is going to be which is a huge handicap.

Again, I really hope I am wrong about Carter as his athleticism at the position is reminiscent of that guy from the Bears and Derrick Brooks from Tampa. I'm just worried about the mental side of the game and whether the game is too fast for him at the pro level.