Parcells (long)

te0002

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I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I'm not all that impressed with Bill's tenure. I love last year's draft and - for the most part - FA signings, but I'm not sure for $5M+ over the past 3 years, 1 playoff appearence - loss - and the worst collapse in team history equates to a job well done.

Are the Cowboys better off player-wise? Certainly on D, but the key components on offense are either old or missing and the lack of depth on the OL is squarely on Bill. Player/coaching blunders throughout the season also contributed to the demise of this team and the completly heartless displays vs. Washington and St. Louis were pathetic.

Some give the Cowboys a pass for the St. Louis game - but it was Bill himself who said no game was meaningless yet couldn't coax a decent perfomance out of this squad. I also wonder why no one who has the opportunity to question Bill gives him a pass on every controversy and gives him all the praise for every victory.

Is Bill the best coach this team has had since Jimmy? Probably, but as far as return on investment, I'm not sure Bill has held up his end of the bargain. Will he change things around on offense this off-season like he did on D last season? I hope so and if he does he'll receive his due credit, but I think at this point I'm more pleased with Bill the GM than I am with Bill the coach.

I know many will disagree - but if so, please refrain from the ever-popular "I guess you want Gailey/Campo/Switzer back?" I'm not intimate with these issues, but I have a hunch there are more coaching options than Gailey/Campo/Switzer.

Bill has obviously done some things to improve this team, but overall, IMO, his tenure here cannot be considered an overwhelming success.
 

parchy

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I don't think people understand just HOW BAD we were before BP got here. No coach on earth could have done more with less than BP did in '03.

Despite what people feed you, this was a rebuilding process in hyper mode, and it's gone well.
 

Wolverine

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te0002 said:
I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I'm not all that impressed with Bill's tenure. I love last year's draft and - for the most part - FA signings, but I'm not sure for $5M+ over the past 3 years, 1 playoff appearence - loss - and the worst collapse in team history equates to a job well done.

Are the Cowboys better off player-wise? Certainly on D, but the key components on offense are either old or missing and the lack of depth on the OL is squarely on Bill. Player/coaching blunders throughout the season also contributed to the demise of this team and the completly heartless displays vs. Washington and St. Louis were pathetic.

Some give the Cowboys a pass for the St. Louis game - but it was Bill himself who said no game was meaningless yet couldn't coax a decent perfomance out of this squad. I also wonder why no one who has the opportunity to question Bill gives him a pass on every controversy and gives him all the praise for every victory.

Is Bill the best coach this team has had since Jimmy? Probably, but as far as return on investment, I'm not sure Bill has held up his end of the bargain. Will he change things around on offense this off-season like he did on D last season? I hope so and if he does he'll receive his due credit, but I think at this point I'm more pleased with Bill the GM than I am with Bill the coach.

I know many will disagree - but if so, please refrain from the ever-popular "I guess you want Gailey/Campo/Switzer back?" I'm not intimate with these issues, but I have a hunch there are more coaching options than Gailey/Campo/Switzer.

Bill has obviously done some things to improve this team, but overall, IMO, his tenure here cannot be considered an overwhelming success.


Glad he is back. But there are should be no excuses for anything less then a 11-5 record and a playoff win or 2 in the 06 season. Anything less is a failure.
 

AsthmaField

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te0002 said:
but I'm not sure for $5M+ over the past 3 years, 1 playoff appearence - loss - and the worst collapse in team history equates to a job well done.

Serious question here: Why do you give a flyin' **** how much money Bill makes? Really. Overpaid, underpaid... it just doesn't matter.

If he wouldn't have had the team at 7-3 to begin with, the Cowboys wouldn't even have been in a position to have a collapse.

My thing is this: If this were the year that we expected everything to come to a peak, then I would be very dissapointed and upset. However, this is just a rebuilding year. We don't have all of the peices... but we have a lot more than we did and we're not that far away from being a real serious contender. Just a few players (including kicker) and we should be in the thick of things.

Most didn't expect true success this season, so why now all of a sudden did this go from a rebuilding season to "the year", as far as expectations go? Because we were at one point 7-3? Well, it was nice that we were there, but it was easy to see from all of our close losses that we are just a couple of players away from contending.

So, for me, this was a very nice rebuilding season that saw us almost get there... even without all of the peices in place. Even with an atrocious kicking game. Even being a 3-4 defense that was short on LB's. Even with all of the rookies having played serious roles. Even with our main CB missing half the season basically. Even with serious deficiencies at OT's. Even with our main RB off all year from injuries (remember the early 90's cowboys without Emmitt? Wasn't pretty).

With all of that... we still almost made the playoffs. One more win going into the St. Louis game and we all would be thinking and feeling a lot different right now. This coming year, with a few key additions and another couple of key rookies (including Ratliff, Beriault and Burnett having bigger roles) we should be right where we want to be.

Parcells has build a young, talented, high-character, hard working team that is going to be very dangerous and a fixture in the playoffs for the remainder of this decade. We are in great shape with the cap and about 15 - 20 key players from this year (rookies and 2nd year guys) will have another year of experience and help us even more next year... relax and enjoy where we are headed.
 

morasp

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Parcells once said you only get one maybe two great players in a coaching career. We have been spoiled to get two great coaches. Jimmy Johnson started with almost nothing and won a super bowl in three years and no one can question the greatness of Tom Landry. I would have to say the BP as a cowboys coach would definitely come in third in comparison to those two.
 

MissionCoach

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I would also like to state the obvious regarding the success that Jimmy Johnson enjoyed here...Pre-Salary Cap, plus Jimmy was in a very fortunate position to evaluate a good portion of the talent in the College ranks...

I also agree that we were a very bad team when BP came on board. Years of poor drafting and bargain basement FA's cannot be overcome overnight. He is building this team for the long haul, rather than a quick fix. Next season he addresses the Offense...and a Super Bowl run is not out of the question.
 

morasp

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MissionCoach said:
I would also like to state the obvious regarding the success that Jimmy Johnson enjoyed here...Pre-Salary Cap, plus Jimmy was in a very fortunate position to evaluate a good portion of the talent in the College ranks...

I also agree that we were a very bad team when BP came on board. Years of poor drafting and bargain basement FA's cannot be overcome overnight. He is building this team for the long haul, rather than a quick fix. Next season he addresses the Offense...and a Super Bowl run is not out of the question.

Actually teams turn around in one year more now than they did back when JJ was our coach. The parity in the league has made the possible.
 

te0002

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AsthmaField said:
Serious question here: Why do you give a flyin' **** how much money Bill makes? Really. Overpaid, underpaid... it just doesn't matter.

Obviously, you've never run a business. Compensation is based on either demostrated performance or in some instances, expected performance. Return on investment is the key aspect of success. If Bill was the lowest paid coach in the league, then the ROI would be greater. But given Bill's compensation - which I don't care about in a real sense except for ROI - I don't see how anyone thinks the Cowboys are getting the better end of the deal, at this point. Will the ROI tunr in the Cowboys favor? Perhaps, but given the last 3 years performance, the jury is still out.
 

Mash

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Bill should be accountable.....he has all the power and resources he needs....his predecessor didn't have that luxury.

You are what you are and Bill is a .500 coach here and it wouldn't surprise me one bit that we end up 8-8 next year.

This team had no where to go but up in wins and in talent.....but I expected more because of the resources Bill was given and the reputation he had and the money he is being paid.

Bill is a very good coach....but am I impressed by the work he has done here.....not at all.....

Any other coach would of been roasted here
 

te0002

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parchy said:
I don't think people understand just HOW BAD we were before BP got here. No coach on earth could have done more with less than BP did in '03.

Despite what people feed you, this was a rebuilding process in hyper mode, and it's gone well.

While I agree regarding '03, does it not bother you the '03 team was the best of Bill's tenure? Carter, Hambrick, et al constitute the glory years? What parts of the '03 team were supposedly superior to the current team? Most would say none, yet the results speak for themselves.

I wasn't arguing a specific season, when you look at the total picture it's hard to believe '03 was the highlight of Bill's tenure.
 

AsthmaField

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te0002 said:
AsthmaField said:
Serious question here: Why do you give a flyin' **** how much money Bill makes? Really. Overpaid, underpaid... it just doesn't matter.

Obviously, you've never run a business. Compensation is based on either demostrated performance or in some instances, expected performance. Return on investment is the key aspect of success. If Bill was the lowest paid coach in the league, then the ROI would be greater. But given Bill's compensation - which I don't care about in a real sense except for ROI - I don't see how anyone thinks the Cowboys are getting the better end of the deal, at this point. Will the ROI tunr in the Cowboys favor? Perhaps, but given the last 3 years performance, the jury is still out.

I don't care if Jerry is getting ROI, I care about wins. If parcells was making 50 million per year that would be WAY too much to pay any coach, even if he won the super bowl. However, if Bill was making 50 million per year and we won the super bowl, I'd be just fine with it... because as a fan, I want wins, not for Jerry to be frugal in paying for a coach. He was frugal with Gailey, and Campo... did that help? Did you feel better because their salary divided by their number of wins was a lower number? I hope not.

Besides, it could be argued that Jerry is getting fair ROI with Bill. The W/L record might be the bottom line, but it is far from the only thing you need to look at.

The rookies he's brought in here. The work ethic of the team. The character of the 53 players he brought in. The overall direction of the team. All of that should be looked at when deciding ROI. Where the team is right now might only be 4 more wins than Campo's last season... but I can tell you the team is light years ahead of where Dave left it. No comparison. Is the competance of the franchise now verses 3 years ago worth the 12 million that Jerry has paid Bill? That's open to debate, but if you ask me, the answer would be H*** yes!!! We'll throw away 12 million on someone like Wiley or Rivera, yet it's too much to pay a coach who has literally changed the very fiber of the entire orginization for the (much) better? That's complete BS.

You might think the ROI is not there for Parcells... but I happen to think we got off damn cheap.

And don't assume to know anything about me or what I might or might not have done. I could make several unflattering assumptions about you based on what I've seen around this forum... but I refrain from doing that because I don't know you.
 

arglebargle

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te0002 said:
AsthmaField said:
Serious question here: Why do you give a flyin' **** how much money Bill makes? Really. Overpaid, underpaid... it just doesn't matter.

Obviously, you've never run a business. Compensation is based on either demostrated performance or in some instances, expected performance. Return on investment is the key aspect of success. If Bill was the lowest paid coach in the league, then the ROI would be greater. But given Bill's compensation - which I don't care about in a real sense except for ROI - I don't see how anyone thinks the Cowboys are getting the better end of the deal, at this point. Will the ROI tunr in the Cowboys favor? Perhaps, but given the last 3 years performance, the jury is still out.


The one issue I have with this is: I am sure that Bill Parcells has helped the bottom financial line for the Dallas Cowboys. Bringing him in was a financial boon. Also helped buoy up the fan base, tired of non-descript teams for too many years. He has certainly aided in keeping a spotlight on the Cowboys (and himself).

However, in his own words, (paraphrased) 'You got three years to show your stuff, or it is time to move on.' Parcells will get a fourth one as well. I certainly hope his stuff next year is worth it.
 

big dog cowboy

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To even ask if we are better off player wise make me question how much someone is paying attention.

BP's tenure here cannot be considered an overwhelming success yet. But look at what he had to start with. I mean, did anyone really think we could get a coach and turn this thing around in 2 seasons? Not a reality if you are building for long term success.

Most point to the fact he has been here 3 years and we should be further along than we are. Well, that really isn't true. Our rebuilding got a little sidetracked with the success of the 2003 team. Now we are on the right path and our future is looking brighter.

As for how much BP makes, it is what it is. Coaches and players are vastly overpaid in this or any other professional league.
 

conner01

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roi is in the eyes of the beholder.think about it this way. how much was wasted on jerry's picks like ek,qc and company?to me it's worth 5 mil a year to keep jerry from drafting
 

te0002

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AsthmaField said:
te0002 said:
I don't care if Jerry is getting ROI, I care about wins. If parcells was making 50 million per year that would be WAY too much to pay any coach, even if he won the super bowl. However, if Bill was making 50 million per year and we won the super bowl, I'd be just fine with it... because as a fan, I want wins, not for Jerry to be frugal in paying for a coach. He was frugal with Gailey, and Campo... did that help? Did you feel better because their salary divided by their number of wins was a lower number? I hope not.

Besides, it could be argued that Jerry is getting fair ROI with Bill. The W/L record might be the bottom line, but it is far from the only thing you need to look at.

The rookies he's brought in here. The work ethic of the team. The character of the 53 players he brought in. The overall direction of the team. All of that should be looked at when deciding ROI. Where the team is right now might only be 4 more wins than Campo's last season... but I can tell you the team is light years ahead of where Dave left it. No comparison. Is the competance of the franchise now verses 3 years ago worth the 12 million that Jerry has paid Bill? That's open to debate, but if you ask me, the answer would be H*** yes!!! We'll throw away 12 million on someone like Wiley or Rivera, yet it's too much to pay a coach who has literally changed the very fiber of the entire orginization for the (much) better? That's complete BS.

You might think the ROI is not there for Parcells... but I happen to think we got off damn cheap.

And don't assume to know anything about me or what I might or might not have done. I could make several unflattering assumptions about you based on what I've seen around this forum... but I refrain from doing that because I don't know you.

First I wasn't disparaging you with my comment, it just seemed your "compensation be damned" attitude towards Bill's salary meant you didn't see the impact of compensation on expectations. And then again you wrote Bill could make $50MM as long as we won the SB every year you'd be happy. Now as a fan that's certainly understandable, but I don't think it's dispositive of the issue.

Your earlier points are valid and I think I gave Bill credit for the player additions. I would be more quick to give him credit for a wholesale attitude change had it not been for the Washington and St. Louis games. Before the Washington game I was a true believer in Bill's psychological hold on this team, but after that perfomance I became a doubter and the St. Louis game confirmed my doubts. Is the attitude better than under Campo? I'm not sure. I think the outlook is better, but we all heard how much a lot of the players liked Campo and played hard for him, so overall attitude is hard to gauge.

And as far asa throwing money away on players - who has the final say in player acquisitions?

Another point on compensation - it's not about Jerry being frugal, it's about the organization getting what it pays for. And for me, that is yet to be determined with Bill.
 

Maikeru-sama

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parchy said:
I don't think people understand just HOW BAD we were before BP got here. No coach on earth could have done more with less than BP did in '03.

Despite what people feed you, this was a rebuilding process in hyper mode, and it's gone well.

Seriously...I am going to have to ask people start bringing facts and data to the table when making these claims....

Why throw other pretty damnable good coaches under the bus just to prop up Big Bill?

These are coaches who I think would be very capable of doing a good job..and keep in mind, you said "no coach on earth", not coaches available.

Tony Dungy
Bill Belechik
Marvin Lewis
Dick Vermeil
Andy Reid
Mike Shanahan
Mike Holmgren
Joe Gibbs

I know I am missing a few...

I would bet 2-week's pay that any of those guys above could have done as good a job or better given:As much control as Big Bill, a flexible Salary Cap and 1st Round Picks (2 out of 3 years Campo didnt have any).

Let's not go overboard with this Parcells praise. Dude has done a wonderful job, even though I dont think it warranted a raise, but...GEEZ...there are other good coaches in this league besides the one coaching the Wow-Boys (as Skip Bayless use to say).
 

CoCo

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I can certainly understand some people being disappointed that we failed to make the PO's in 05. Was this team in worse shape than the Jets or Pats when Parcells took them over? Don't think so. I think in Bill's own words the Pats were worse if I recall correctly.

Remember Parcells year 2 track record? Didn't hold true in Dallas obviously. But the 05 offseason and 9-7 rebound was 3 games and excitement about the future. In some ways I think Parcells made it harder on himself (expectation-wise & talent evaluation-wise) by going 10-6 in 03.

In any respect I can understand a bit the 05 disappointment. Again, expectations were raised with a 7-3, almost 8-3 start. 9-7 became a bitter pill to swallow even if it was vs mostly quality competition.

But I do think the 06 season will be the defining year of Parcells Cowboy tenure. The list of spots to fix is much more manageable albeit a bit less scientific. OL is indeed the glaring problem.

ROI? Sorry. I'm interested in Cowboy wins and not real concerned about what it costs Jerry to hire coaches unless it seriously impacts our ability to sign players. No problems there that we know of.

Yes the road has been a bit bumpier than many expected but we are still headed in the right direction. First time we could definitively say that in some time. Parcells is not a superhuman coach. He makes mistakes. His demeanor is tough to take at times. He is certainly well-paid. Perhaps even overpaid. But those are side issues. I don't see many definitively better options out there. I am perfectly content to stay teh course with Bill another year.
 

CoCo

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mickgreen58 said:
Seriously...I am going to have to ask people start bringing facts and data to the table when making these claims....

Why throw other pretty damnable good coaches under the bus just to prop up Big Bill?

These are coaches who I think would be very capable of doing a good job..and keep in mind, you said "no coach on earth", not coaches available.

Tony Dungy
Bill Belechik
Marvin Lewis
Dick Vermeil
Andy Reid
Mike Shanahan
Mike Holmgren
Joe Gibbs

I know I am missing a few...

I would bet 2-week's pay that any of those guys above could have done as good a job or better given:As much control as Big Bill, a flexible Salary Cap and 1st Round Picks (2 out of 3 years Campo didnt have any).

Let's not go overboard with this Parcells praise. Dude has done a wonderful job, even though I dont think it warranted a raise, but...GEEZ...there are other good coaches in this league besides the one coaching the Wow-Boys (as Skip Bayless use to say).

Bingo!
 
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