Penalties and TO's, 2 interesting stats.

[fannypack]

I wanted to take a look at last years playoff teams and try to find a common denominator in TO's and Penalties to see where each playoff team ranked in both of those statistics. It's pretty surprising.

Of the 12 teams that went to the playoffs only 2 had negative TO #'s.

Of the 12 teams that went to the playoffs the Titans, Cardinals, Ravens, Giants ranked in the top 10 as most penalized.

So it appears that while penalty yards are important and it's an issue that must be addressed, TO's are the real killer.

Where did Dallas rank last year in TO #'s?

Almost dead last, at -11. Being only in front of the Broncos and 49ers.

 

[cowboyjoe]

I wanted to take a look at last years playoff teams and try to find a common denominator in TO's and Penalties to see where each playoff team ranked in both of those statistics. It's pretty surprising.

Of the 12 teams that went to the playoffs only 2 had negative TO #'s.

Of the 12 teams that went to the playoffs the Titans, Cardinals, Ravens, Giants ranked in the top 10 as most penalized.

So it appears that while penalty yards are important and it's an issue that must be addressed, TO's are the real killer.

Where did Dallas rank last year in TO #'s?

Almost dead last, at -11. Being only in front of the Broncos and 49ers.

pretty interesting fact, if you remember we also had delay of game penalty, with too many men on the field, how did we rank in penatilities and whom had the most, etc,

 

[fannypack]

pretty interesting fact, if you remember we also had delay of game penalty, with too many men on the field, how did we rank in penatilities and whom had the most, etc,

We were last place in penalties with 119 over the year. That's about 7 per game.

The yardage in penalties for us was 952 which equals about 60 yards a game. When you take into account that we almost always gave the opposition great field position on change of possession (a lot of times beyond their own 30) you can basically assume we gave up 7 points per game on special teams and penalties, followed by perhaps another 3-7 for our TO's. So that's really a 10-14 point per game gift, due to sloppy play and execution.

 

[cowboyjoe]

We were last place in penalties with 119 over the year. That's about 7 per game.

The yardage in penalties for us was 952 which equals about 60 yards a game. When you take into account that we almost always gave the opposition great field position on change of possession (a lot of times beyond their own 30) you can basically assume we gave up 7 points per game on special teams and penalties, followed by perhaps another 3-7 for our TO's. So that's really a 10-14 point per game gift, due to sloppy play and execution.

exactly sloppy play and execution,
how in the world can you have execution when you give players extra days off as a head coach; thats dumb to me;

 

[NextGenBoys]

exactly sloppy play and execution,
how in the world can you have execution when you give players extra days off as a head coach; thats dumb to me;

Wade giving the players days off was absolutely ridiculous. I dont know what he was thinking, but he routinely did it, and they routinely came out un-prepared.

But in all fairness, we were penalized and played stupid under Parcells, so I dont know

 

[burmafrd]

when you have two VERY different coaches with two VERY different coaching styles and you STILL have lots of penalties, its time to look at the players and put it on them for most of the blame.

 

[theogt]

Historically, penalties have a very low correlation with winning percentage. Fans (and I'm sure many coaches) place much more emphasis on penalties than is warranted.

 

[cowboyjoe]

Historically, penalties have a very low correlation with winning percentage. Fans (and I'm sure many coaches) place much more emphasis on penalties than is warranted.

i disagree with that, its true certain penalities dont matter to a degree, but when you have 2 or more penalities like delay of game like the cowboys had; that hurts you in winning that game, and it really shows lack of execution and shows sloppy football allowed by the head coach when you have 12 men on the field, that is totally unacceptable;

remember also, wade phillips strength is defense, so why in the world would you have 12 men on the field on defense;

 

[theogt]

i disagree with that, its true certain penalities dont matter to a degree, but when you have 2 or more penalities like delay of game like the cowboys had; that hurts you in winning that game, and it really shows lack of execution and shows sloppy football allowed by the head coach when you have 12 men on the field, that is totally unacceptable;

remember also, wade phillips strength is defense, so why in the world would you have 12 men on the field on defense;

Well, the facts speak for themselves. There's not much to really argue against. Penalties have little impact on whether a team wins more games or not. It sure doesn't "feel" like the right answer, but as they say, "thems the facts."

 

[pancakeman]

Edit: Never mind, I just proved a point that was already proven.

 

[EPL0c0]

I don't think the turnovers themselves hurt as much as points scored AFTER the turnovers. That's what hurt Dallas in key (and very winnable) games in December 2008 (PIT and BAL...maybe even the PHI game).

The Townsend Pick6 vs PIT aside; In the 2nd QTR, about 5:30 left, PIT INT's Romo at the DAL 22. Leads to a FG.

Against Baltimore; an INT at the BAL 20 and returned 29yds to midfield. Ravens then gain 30YDS on 3 plays in about :25. This leads to a FG at the end of the 1st half. Points off turnovers...

The Philly game was not close, but Dallas did give up two TDs (two LOOONG tds) on fumble returns. Maybe Dallas was out of it by then, I can't say. But -14 from them, +14 for us and it's 17-27 at that point mid-way through the 3rd QTR. That sets up a VERY different game going into the 4th.

 

[Alexander]

Almost dead last, at -11. Being only in front of the Broncos and 49ers.

This is the one thing that's significant. Our defense simply didn't generate enough turnovers, specifically interceptions.

The penalty numbers speak for themselves. You can overcome that if you have a plus in the turnover category. You can't overcome deficiencies in both areas.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

I am curious about the breakdown those penalties.

I wonder if we are higher in penalties for 3rd (and the rare 4th down situations).

I wonder this because a Penalty on 1st and second down or kickoffs is bad enough but it seems like we had a number of penalties on 3rd downs where we would have converted to a first down only to get a penalty and ruin that chance....or in some cases where the other teams offense was stopped on third down only for our defense to commit a penalty which resulted in the other team getting a 1st down.

Not sure it really matters as Alexander said the TOs in combination with the penalties hurt us but still curios about the breakdown.

 

[fannypack]

I am curious about the breakdown those penalties.

I wonder if we are higher in penalties for 3rd (and the rare 4th down situations).

I wonder this because a Penalty on 1st and second down or kickoffs is bad enough but it seems like we had a number of penalties on 3rd downs where we would have converted to a first down only to get a penalty and ruin that chance....or in some cases where the other teams offense was stopped on third down only for our defense to commit a penalty which resulted in the other team getting a 1st down.

Not sure it really matters as Alexander said the TOs in combination with the penalties hurt us but still curios about the breakdown.

Me too. I wish NFL.com broke it down more, but without investigating it a little more or using another source it's hard to tell without going through the individual games play by play.

In the end penalty yards are penalty yards, but I'm not quite sure which is worse. Going from 1st and 10 to 1st and 15 on a false start, or going from 3rd and 3 to 3rd and 8.

I'm going to wager a guess and say the 3rd down penalty is more harmful. When you get those kinds of penalties on first down you have a few shots realizing you have 15 yards to go.

And it's mainly the mental error penalties we need to correct, because those are correctable. There's not a whole lot you can do for the penalties which occur in the heat of battle.

 

[AMERICAS_FAN]

We were last place in penalties with 119 over the year. That's about 7 per game.

The yardage in penalties for us was 952 which equals about 60 yards a game. When you take into account that we almost always gave the opposition great field position on change of possession (a lot of times beyond their own 30) you can basically assume we gave up 7 points per game on special teams and penalties, followed by perhaps another 3-7 for our TO's. So that's really a 10-14 point per game gift, due to sloppy play and execution.

This hread provides a great analysis. The sports writiers in Big D should be embaressed that they can't write this kind of analysis that diehard fans can - but I digress. What this analysis directly explains is how such a talent-loaded team can miss the playoffs as we did. Our TOs, I'm sure, also spiked in December, when keeping them low mattered most. So when players say that the real problem was execution, they're not kidding!

 

[Kangaroo]

I think the issue with Dallas and penalties is when they occur and the type of penalties.

That is where it hurts 3rd and 3 is a lot easier to get a 1st down then 3rd and 8 yet how many times did we see that play out or we stopped the other team on 3rd down only to see the yellow flag give the other team a 1st down and they go down and score on that drive because of the penalty.

 

[dallasfaniac]

I'd be curious to see the stats of teams that have different combinations of offensive and defensive turnovers. ie. Teams that turnover high but create more turnovers, turnover high but create few turnovers, turnover low but create more turnovers, turnover low but create few turnovers.

 

[Plumfool]

I would like to know when the penalties occur. If the team is on the verge of scoring 6 and as a result of a penalty has to settle for three. Also if to's are in their own territory or deep in the other teams.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

This is the one thing that's significant. Our defense simply didn't generate enough turnovers, specifically interceptions.

And our O turned it over too many times. That's not just a defensive stat.

As for cowboyjoe's question on 12 men... It happens because Pacman is an idiot. Thankfully, he's gone now.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I've run correlation coefficients in the past and penalties and penalty yards have almost zero correlation to winning and losing in the NFL. That's not to say that I think coaches should stop caring about penalties being made, but in the long run of an NFL season they don't make a difference because it appears that teams that have talent and coaching win regardless of penalties and teams that don't have talent and/or coaching lose regardless of penalties.

Turnovers OTOH have a strong correlation coefficient to winning and losing in the NFL. I need to run some numbers come December and in the postseasn of turnovers and win/losses because it's pretty apparent to me that turnover margin is huge come December.




YAKUZA