Players or Scheme

[Doomsday]

What do you think is the bigger issue the level of skill of Dallas' defensive players or the coaches inability to adjust their schemes to fit the players they have?

I really think the coaching staff has done a terrible job with the overall scheme of the defense. They continue to call cover 2 defenses when neither Roy nor Davis excel in deep coverage. Last week they kept blitzing the outside LB when Bush was in the backfield and NO kept throwing swing passes to him in the flat until they finally broke one. I really think its up to the coaches to develop a scheme that maximizes the strengths of their players, yet we continually see Roy alone in deep coverage or man on man vs players like Shockey and Clark who win those matchups everytime. Yes players have to execute but at what point to you figure out they cant execute when you are continually putting them in bad situations?

 

[theebs]

quick explain to me how you know it is "cover 2".

Cover 2 has become this cliche'd media speak everytime they see two deep safeties.

How do you know it is not man coverage with both safeties playing deep?

Do you know the difference? How do you know it is not cover 4? With both corners and safeties playing areas of the field?

Critiquing of the scheme and the coaches is comical here.

 

[Doomsday]

You going tell me they werent in cover 2 on the TD that Keith Davis gave up? Its pretty obvious when both Safeties drop back and both corners release their man 15 yards down the field? What else could it be? Not to mention that BP has talked about the cover 2 quite a few times in his press conferences.

Your the one who is comical.

 

[junk]

It is rarely one or the other. Do some players do better in one scheme or another? Sure. Is one scheme superior to another? No.

Should good players succeed irregardless of scheme? If they are truly good, they should.

 

[Doomsday]

No team in the NFL has 11 truly good players at every position, yet almost none of them have given up as many big plays as Dallas has. this season.

 

[AmericasTeam31]

It is rarely one or the other. Do some players do better in one scheme or another? Sure. Is one scheme superior to another? No.

Should good players succeed irregardless of scheme? If they are truly good, they should.

I think what he is getting at, is that EVERY player has weaknesses. It is up to the coaching staff to figure out what those weaknesses are and try to gameplan so they don't become a factor. It's not that the scheme is inferior to another. Rather, the scheme is not condusive to our safeties strengths.... Or our corners strengths for that matter.

 

[Doomsday]

I think what he is getting at, is that EVERY player has weaknesses. It is up to the coaching staff to figure out what those weaknesses are and try to gameplan so they don't become a factor. It's not that the scheme is inferior to another. Rather, the scheme is not condusive to our safeties strengths.... Or our corners strengths for that matter.

Yes, thank you I should of had you post for me.

 

[Staxxxx]

quick explain to me how you know it is "cover 2".

Cover 2 has become this cliche'd media speak everytime they see two deep safeties.

How do you know it is not man coverage with both safeties playing deep?

Do you know the difference? How do you know it is not cover 4? With both corners and safeties playing areas of the field?

Critiquing of the scheme and the coaches is comical here.

The Cover 2 refers to the two deep safties each responsible for a deep half of the field. There are several variations of Cover 2 defense but they are Cover 2 none the same. For example, Cover 2 Man means 2 safeties have deep responsibility while the cornerbacks and linebackers play man coverage on their assignments. There also several variations of the underneath zones played in this defense including the Tampa 2 which drops the Middle linebacker in the middle to deep hole but these are all still Cover 2 defenses.

 

[theebs]

The Cover 2 refers to the two deep safties each responsible for a deep half of the field. There are several variations of Cover 2 defense but they are Cover 2 none the same. For example, Cover 2 Man means 2 safeties have deep responsibility while the cornerbacks and linebackers play man coverage on their assignments. There also several variations of the underneath zones played in this defense including the Tampa 2 which drops the Middle linebacker in the middle to deep hole but these are all still Cover 2 defenses.

Yeah that is my point. Cover 2 is not an all encompassing term.

We may have our safeties in two deep coverage, or covering each a half of the field, but that does not mean the defense is cover 2.

The linebackers, corners and lineman on alot of these plays are doing all different things. Everyone is in zone in a true cover 2.

I think we play alot of cover 2 defense, but I think alot of the time the linebackers assignments are different than in the cover 2 most people think of.

I mean I have not seen a cover 2 run by tampa, indy etc...where the olb rushes the passer. We do that.

It is hard to critique the defense because we dont know exactly what is called and how the offenses formation change at the line changes, safety and linebacker coverage responsibilities. Like for instance the second moss td last year in the horrible Commanders game. That looked like cover 2, but glenn was in man on moss and had to play the corner route because of the way washingtons formation dictated, with moss lined up in the "close" formation. Williams became responsible for the crossing route. That half step forward cost us a game, and in the end the playoffs. In the tampa or indy cover 2 the safeties would have dropped deep and the ball would have probably been thrown to the crossing route.

 

[theebs]

You going tell me they werent in cover 2 on the TD that Keith Davis gave up? Its pretty obvious when both Safeties drop back and both corners release their man 15 yards down the field? What else could it be? Not to mention that BP has talked about the cover 2 quite a few times in his press conferences.

Your the one who is comical.

yes I agree with you on that play, with henry letting colston go, that indicates cover 2 the way we think of it, I dont think that is the case all the time however and that is the problem us fans have when getting mad about this stuff.

I have watched the last three games with a friend of mine who started at safety/corner and lb for UNT. He has explained alot of what there doing when it looks like cover 2 and it is not. That is simply my point. The offensive formations can change the responsibilities of safeties and linebackers. New orleans did a great job of this. We did a great job in reverse on the colts.

I am telling you though, it is extremely difficult to say what defense we are in. Even when it appears obvious it is very hard to tell as fans what the play called is or how the play should have or did change based on the offense.

Very difficult in my opinion and that is why arguing over scheme is an exercise in futility for all parties.

I will say though in a play like the one you brought up, it does not matter what the defense was, Keith davis should have at least knocked the ball down, he just lacks the skills. Man or zone.

 

[smarta5150]

No team in the NFL has 11 truly good players at every position, yet almost none of them have given up as many big plays as Dallas has. this season.

The Falcons have given up 33 plays of 20+ yards.

Thats off the top of my head.

I would love for you to research this more and actually prove it.

I'm curious.

PS. I see big plays every week from all teams. I for one, watch several games in the week NOT just Dallas unlike many people are here.

 

[CowboyJeff]

I'm waiting for that photo of Zimmer as a dunce before I comment :laugh2:

 

[5Stars]

What do you think is the bigger issue the level of skill of Dallas' defensive players or the coaches inability to adjust their schemes to fit the players they have?

I really think the coaching staff has done a terrible job with the overall scheme of the defense. They continue to call cover 2 defenses when neither Roy nor Davis excel in deep coverage. Last week they kept blitzing the outside LB when Bush was in the backfield and NO kept throwing swing passes to him in the flat until they finally broke one. I really think its up to the coaches to develop a scheme that maximizes the strengths of their players, yet we continually see Roy alone in deep coverage or man on man vs players like Shockey and Clark who win those matchups everytime. Yes players have to execute but at what point to you figure out they cant execute when you are continually putting them in bad situations?

I think it's the scheme, or the lack thereof...

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

What do you think is the bigger issue the level of skill of Dallas' defensive players or the coaches inability to adjust their schemes to fit the players they have?

Just a quick thought...

1. When its scheme we have seen the masters work with lesser players(ie. Belichek)
2. When its players we have seen some really good players not get it done.

My vote is truly for BOTH in our case... leaning more towards scheme and mental errors

Ware, Roy, TNew are playmakers... we are just playing same alot of the times and that(like a conservative offensive gameplan can only last so long)

 

[BeWare94]

What do you think is the bigger issue the level of skill of Dallas' defensive players or the coaches inability to adjust their schemes to fit the players they have?

I really think the coaching staff has done a terrible job with the overall scheme of the defense. They continue to call cover 2 defenses when neither Roy nor Davis excel in deep coverage. Last week they kept blitzing the outside LB when Bush was in the backfield and NO kept throwing swing passes to him in the flat until they finally broke one. I really think its up to the coaches to develop a scheme that maximizes the strengths of their players, yet we continually see Roy alone in deep coverage or man on man vs players like Shockey and Clark who win those matchups everytime. Yes players have to execute but at what point to you figure out they cant execute when you are continually putting them in bad situations?

Bad Schemes will undo good players everytime. I've been saying this for four years and everyone here keeps defending Zimmer (...and Parcells to some extent.)