Pro Wrestling Talk

[Yakuza Rich]

I think wrestling has struggled to adapt to what makes a good heel, but just as importantly as to what make a good babyface.


I’ve always thought WWE babyfaces generally stunk. Even in the 80’s, most of the babyfaces were corny. And the cool heels that became babyfaces would eventually become very corny. On the other hand, the babyfaces in other territories like Mid South, Crockett, Florida, Portland, etc. were usually not corny and were easy to root for.


There are 3 basic elements of being a babyface:

1. The babyface that the fans perceive as the likeable underdog.

2. The babyface that the male fans want to hang out with and the female fans want to be with.

3. The babyface that the children admire.

Vince has always been about #3 with Hogan, Bret Hart and now John Cena. I always preferred #1 and #2 with Magnum TA, Dusty Rhodes, RnR Express, Curt Hennig (pre-WWF), The Von Erichs, etc.


Vince did go with #1 and #2 with the Rock, Austin and Mankind and it generated him tons of money. But his heart was always into #3 and that’s how we revert back to John Cena and the PG Era. But Cena didn’t draw anywhere near what Rock, Austin and Mankind drew and it really points to the fact that the fans are really not into the childhood hero.


Of course, the WWE could use it in a XPac/Flair scenario where there is no true babyface and true heel and you have fans from both sides who badly don’t want to see their guy lose. That’s what happened with CM Punk and Daniel Bryan as opponents for Cena.


The fans really thought that Punk didn’t like Cena and didn’t want to lose to Cena. The fans really thought that Daniel Bryan didn’t respect Cena as a wrestler and didn’t want to lose to Cena. And it drew money and interest.


Now, we see Instragram and Twitter photos of Roman Reigns and Braun Strowman hanging out together, Bray Wyatt hanging out with Stephanie McMahon, etc. It completely kills the mystique and now the fans have zero doubt as to what is real and what is fake. They have zero doubt that Wrestler A vs. Wrestler B are actually on friendly terms and don’t mind losing to put the other one over. And now it doesn’t spark the interest of the fans and nobody cares to show up.


They also try to have heels doing babyface work. Heels shouldn't start out with catchphrases because catchphrases are over with the crowd. Faces can have catchphrases. A heel can go without a catchphrase and then turn face and develop a catchphrase and then keep that catchphrase when they go back to heel. But to start out as a heel with a catchphrase is a poor way to be a heel.


The same with wise cracking heels. If the joke is too funny, the fan will treat the heel as a babyface. The babyface should be making the wise cracks. The fans will want to hang out with the wrestler that makes the funny jokes and has the cool catchphrase. And if that guy is the heel...you're doing it wrong.


I believe once there is a booker who is keen to what truly works as a heel and a face with today's fans, then you can find something that will really draw. Of course, they are about 17 years behind on this, so I am not getting my hopes up too high.




YR

 

[jwooten15]

At the heyday of WCW and WWF (yes before WWE)...when they had the monday night wars...when you had DGen on one copied from NWO on the other.

THAT was when wrestling was really good.

Problem with WCW is they only seemed to thrive on the older guys and could not develop some of the younger talent they had and let them go...Man alive WCW had two young guys that they never really pushed much only for them to go onto to WWF and be world wide wrestling ICONS like Stone Cold Steve Austin and the Undertaker and that does not count Mick Foley who had "some" success as Cactus Jack on occasion in WCW. I think it is fair to say that Stone Cold, Undertaker and the Rock were probably three of the biggest name wrestlers in the 90's and 00s and two of the three came from the WCW who just let them go because they had them with stunning steve in a tag team and the undertaker was billed as mean mark.

But still those were the days when wrestling was good.

After the WCW folded it did not take long for the WWE to get the guys they wanted and let some of the young talent go.
They did not have the same level of competition so I don't think they were pressured to put as good of a product out there. I also think they started to go the way of the WCW by using the older wrestlers way too much instead of promoting the younger ones. I mean good grief I know Hulk and Flair are giants in the industry but people got tired of seeing those guys wrestle. They should have just made Flair a manager or be put in just a talking role instead of having him still out there doing the same old moves.

I quit watch some years ago. Just could not continue to watch the weak product they were putting out.

However I see there are bunch of newer younger guys who have taken over since then (quit watching before Cena became big) so it looks like they learned their lesson to a degree.

I just can't imagine them being as good again as the NWO and DGenX days when monday night was a huge fight to see who was going to get more views and this was before DVRs were huge. You would have to switch between to the two channels or record one on video tape.

Ahhh the glory days.

I get lost on YouTube for hours watching those old clips. Brings me back to my childhood!

 

[Stash]

I get lost on YouTube for hours watching those old clips. Brings me back to my childhood!

Don't ever get the WWE Network! You'd never leave the house!

 

[big dog cowboy]

 

[Stash]

Take a look at this work and give it a or as to whether you like it or not:

 

[jrumann59]

Always thought Piper was an avg wrestler but one of the best on a mic.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Always thought Piper was an avg wrestler but one of the best on a mic.

I thought Piper was a fantastic worker. He was small by WWF 80's standards, but he came off like a formidable opponent that was crazy enough to beat much larger guys. Watch Piper vs. Adonis is WM3 and they take 1 freaking bump (Piper takes a front bump off a Jimmy Hart trip-up) and the match was well done that got a hot crowd going. That sure beats 2 guys doing all of these flips and bumping 30 times with the fans sitting on their hands.




YR

 

[Melonfeud]

There’s a lot of things wrong with wrestling. Yes, the attitudes and tastes of the fans have changed, but they have forgotten the basic principles as to what sells in wrestling and will always sell in wrestling.


Wrestling starts to sell when the fans start to doubt what is real and what is fake. Fans from yesteryear overwhelmingly knew that wrestling was a work in the end. But what drew them to it was the characters and that they didn’t have to suspend their belief that much. And when they started to doubt even more what was real and what was fake, the more money wrestling drew.


I’ll give a good example of this in the 90’s. In WCW, X-Pac cut a real life scathing promo on Ric Flair because X-Pac didn’t like Flair in real life. Then, Flair cut a real life scathing promo on X-Pac. This generated a lot of heat from the fans (until WCW screwed it up because they are WCW) because the fans felt that this was authentic (which it was). And the fans became genuinely interested in seeing XPac vs. Flair in the ring.


For the XPac fans, they thought that Flair was over the hill and needed to step aside. For the Flair fans (many more of these fans than XPac fans), they agreed with Flair and thought who was XPac to ever criticize Ric Flair?


Undoubtedly, almost all of the fans knew that if Flair and XPac got into the ring that they would not actually try to injure each other. But, they also knew that neither wanted to put the other over. And the fans of Flair didn’t want him to lose to freaking XPac while the fans for XPac wanted him to get over old man Flair. In the meantime, while they weren’t going to injure each other, there was the distinct possibility that one guy may potato the other in a match because they genuinely don’t like each other.


That’s one of the many things that wrestling lacks today. That doubt as to whether or not wrestlers are true enemies or not. The only thing ‘new’ about the XPac vs. Flair feud concept was neither was really a heel or a face. But, it was about a genuine belief that neither wrestler liked each other and neither wrestler was truly okay with doing the job and that being put over was important to them.


In today’s landscape, it’s more difficult to get over as a heel from a universal standpoint. But all it really takes is a doubt as to whether the opponents really hate each other and that it’s important to them to win the match. You combine that with some decent character development and it will sell.







YR

WoW!,,, I had no clue some of my ESTEEMED zone posters held such varied ( albeit obscure venues )of interests, this is insightful as the same clarity I see in cowboy football posts are prevalent in a pro wrestling thread,,,, simply amazing!
This is some good stuff to read from ALL YOU POSTING,, not just from my guy YR

 

[Melonfeud]

Love that pic Big Dog!
now,he was just coming on circuit in the Ohio river valley,,rowdy Roddy piper,, I remember the kilt and all the stoner girls on the couch would 'hoot' when he'd jump off a corner post and twist in the air to float that kilt up,,,no ****!,,, this is crunching the rust from my frontal lobe churning these memories up!

 

[timb2]

That simply isn't close to being true. His work in NXT is the primary reason for it's success. Just look at how many of their entertainers have moved up and the success they are experiencing. The fact is, if what he is doing with them would be allowed to transfer to the main roster, Raw and Smackdown would benefit greatly and be better. The WWE is making a lot of mistakes. But Trips doesn't deserve to have the finger of blame pointed at him.

His wins over Goldberg & Sting is what I am referring too. He beats Brock Lesner,etc. I don't understand watching Goldberg a few years ago tearing up everyone in the Elimination Chamber just to have HHH slide in the sledgehammer for the win at the end.... Sting should have been taking on The Undertaker when he got to the WWE yet HHH wanted DX vs NWO which made little sense because Sting was Wolfpack not B/W NWO...This is what I'm talking about he constantly puts himself over when he needs to be behind the scenes.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Don't ever get the WWE Network! You'd never leave the house!

A few years ago they had a BUNCH of round table discussions on a youtube channel. I think it was actually WWE testing out to see if they would get a lot of views before going forward with a pay channel but I could be wrong.

I just know I would sit and just watch these round table discussions with various superstars talking about other superstars. Sometimes they would talk about Ultimate warrior. Sometimes they would talk about who was actually the toughest, in real life, wrestlers, or who was great at helping get other wrestlers over. They would have flair on there, King, Cornett and others and it always varied some. They were great and I spent the better part of a couple of days watching them one weekend.

 

[Stash]

A few years ago they had a BUNCH of round table discussions on a youtube channel. I think it was actually WWE testing out to see if they would get a lot of views before going forward with a pay channel but I could be wrong.

I just know I would sit and just watch these round table discussions with various superstars talking about other superstars. Sometimes they would talk about Ultimate warrior. Sometimes they would talk about who was actually the toughest, in real life, wrestlers, or who was great at helping get other wrestlers over. They would have flair on there, King, Cornett and others and it always varied some. They were great and I spent the better part of a couple of days watching them one weekend.

I think you're referring to the Legends of Wrestling Roundtables that Jim Ross used to host. If so, yeah, they were great.

There is tons of information out there if a fan is truly interested in it.

If anyone listens to podcasts, they're huge in the wrestling world and plenty of current and former stars are getting into them. From Jim Ross to Steve Austin to Jim Cornette to Eric Bischoff to Chris Jericho, to many, many more, there are plenty of stories being told.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

I think you're referring to the Legends of Wrestling Roundtables that Jim Ross used to host. If so, yeah, they were great.

There is tons of information out there if a fan is truly interested in it.

If anyone listens to podcasts, they're huge in the wrestling world and plenty of current and former stars are getting into them. From Jim Ross to Steve Austin to Jim Cornette to Eric Bischoff to Chris Jericho, to many, many more, there are plenty of stories being told.

Listened to quite a few stone cold pod casts...they are hit and miss but when he has someone like cornette or flair on there...can't miss stuff.

I think it was on the stone cold pod cast with cornette where he talked about a tag team of Condrey and Hickerson were going to pull a trick on a japanese wrestler who was a huge homophobe but it turned out to be a double joke on the japanese guy and one of the tag team guys. I won't go into it into more detail as this is a family friendly site but it had me rolling.

 

[Stash]

Listened to quite a few stone cold pod casts...they are hit and miss but when he has someone like cornette or flair on there...can't miss stuff.

I think it was on the stone cold pod cast with cornette where he talked about a tag team of Condrey and Hickerson were going to pull a trick on a japanese wrestler who was a huge homophobe but it turned out to be a double joke on the japanese guy and one of the tag team guys. I won't go into it into more detail as this is a family friendly site but it had me rolling.

You're definitely right, they are "hit and miss". Sometimes, they're gold and sometimes you waste an hour-plus and nothing of substance is talked about. But when you strike gold, it's worth it.

But scripted or not, it's an interesting business.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Another major facet of wrestling that is missing greatly in the business is the art of selling in the ring. As I always like to say ‘they call it selling for a reason.’ Good selling in the ring sells tickets for future events. Part of the issue is that with the generation change going from Generation X to Millenials as the main target audience is that much of what Millenials prefer (athleticism, quick paced action, shorter matches with higher workrates, etc) cuts in the way of traditional selling in the ring.


The good news is that there’s still no reason why wrestlers can’t sell well enough in the modern style of wrestling and use that to make the matches more compelling and to make the feuds more compelling. The problem is that the training on selling is so poor and so ill-conceived that I don’t see any really future of quality sellers out there. And most of your major stars in the history of pro wrestling, all the way up to Austin and the Rock, were pretty darn good sellers.


I think the major misconception of selling for today’s wrestlers is that they think it’s about the willingness to sell. And in the end, they tend to over-sell moves instead of creating a believable sell. They also bump way too much which gives the appearance of over-selling and also causes future injuries. That’s what I like about Piper vs. Adonis in WM3. IIRC, they took ONE bump, but the selling, the story and the pacing and ebb and flow of the match was excellent. The fans were really into it which is hard when you have 70,000 fans and they came away wanting to see more.


I don’t watch a lot of wrestling these days, but I caught Sami Zayn in a match and I thought his selling was pathetic. He over-bumped and over-sold everything. Every move he took he sold like a knockout blow…only to get right back up and get hit with another move that he sold like a knockout blow…only to get up again and then hit his opponent with a move. And because Zayne is a ‘high flyer’, a lot of his moves are aerial high spots that he’s executing despite just selling a move like it knocked him unconscious. With a lot less bumping and better selling, Zayn could have gotten the match over more, gotten himself over better and his body would have thanked him for it.


My belief is that the over-bumping came from the popularity of Ric Flair who was a famed bumper in the ring. But most people don’t realize that heels are better off bumping a lot, not the face. And Flair was usually the heel. It wasn’t until he got older that he started to play the face role more often and it made more sense for him to be a bumping babyface that bumps more for the younger, more physical heel and create the underdog effect. But Flair always liked being the heel because he felt more comfortable in the ring working the heel style because his bumping was better suited for it. And because Flair was unique in how many bumps he took, it got him over. But if everybody was bumping as much as Flair did back in the day, I don’t think his work would have gotten as over as it did because he would lose that unique style in the ring.


And that’s a big part of selling that I see most wrestler’s don’t understand…heels and faces should sell in a different fashion. The heel sell is more of an instance where the heel is generally surprised by the face. The heel is taking the face too lightly and the face hits him with a move he didn’t expect and the heel is shocked by it and is now backing off. The babyface sell is more of a comeback mode where they may be down, but they are fighting to get up.


Ricky Morton usually gets credit as the best babyface seller of all time and I agree. You watch Morton and he never over-bumped nor did he have those ‘knockout blow’ sells. Morton would get hit by a move or a strike and he would sell it like it ‘took the starch out of him.’ And then he would slowly progress to getting his strength back up. And if he got hit with a devastating blow, he wouldn’t get right back up and allow himself to be hit with another move or strike by the opponent. The opponent would have to pick up a deadweight Morton.


With today’s style of wrestling being more athletic and faster paced, I think a good match to watch is one of my favorite matches of all time.


Rey Mysterio vs. Eddy Guererro Halloween Havoc 1997.


It’s a fascinating match to watch and much of the moves and the action hold right up to today’s wrestling. The difference is that both guys knew how to sell, they knew how to pace the match and they knew how to manipulate the crowd. They knew when to hit rapid fire moves in succession, but also when to hit moves and give each other enough time so both guys could sell. It still won’t likely sell like a Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin match, but it can start to bridge the gap between the modern style and what has sold throughout the history of wrestling.







YR

 

[Stash]

Another major facet of wrestling that is missing greatly in the business is the art of selling in the ring. As I always like to say ‘they call it selling for a reason.’ Good selling in the ring sells tickets for future events. Part of the issue is that with the generation change going from Generation X to Millenials as the main target audience is that much of what Millenials prefer (athleticism, quick paced action, shorter matches with higher workrates, etc) cuts in the way of traditional selling in the ring.


The good news is that there’s still no reason why wrestlers can’t sell well enough in the modern style of wrestling and use that to make the matches more compelling and to make the feuds more compelling. The problem is that the training on selling is so poor and so ill-conceived that I don’t see any really future of quality sellers out there. And most of your major stars in the history of pro wrestling, all the way up to Austin and the Rock, were pretty darn good sellers.


I think the major misconception of selling for today’s wrestlers is that they think it’s about the willingness to sell. And in the end, they tend to over-sell moves instead of creating a believable sell. They also bump way too much which gives the appearance of over-selling and also causes future injuries. That’s what I like about Piper vs. Adonis in WM3. IIRC, they took ONE bump, but the selling, the story and the pacing and ebb and flow of the match was excellent. The fans were really into it which is hard when you have 70,000 fans and they came away wanting to see more.


I don’t watch a lot of wrestling these days, but I caught Sami Zayn in a match and I thought his selling was pathetic. He over-bumped and over-sold everything. Every move he took he sold like a knockout blow…only to get right back up and get hit with another move that he sold like a knockout blow…only to get up again and then hit his opponent with a move. And because Zayne is a ‘high flyer’, a lot of his moves are aerial high spots that he’s executing despite just selling a move like it knocked him unconscious. With a lot less bumping and better selling, Zayn could have gotten the match over more, gotten himself over better and his body would have thanked him for it.


My belief is that the over-bumping came from the popularity of Ric Flair who was a famed bumper in the ring. But most people don’t realize that heels are better off bumping a lot, not the face. And Flair was usually the heel. It wasn’t until he got older that he started to play the face role more often and it made more sense for him to be a bumping babyface that bumps more for the younger, more physical heel and create the underdog effect. But Flair always liked being the heel because he felt more comfortable in the ring working the heel style because his bumping was better suited for it. And because Flair was unique in how many bumps he took, it got him over. But if everybody was bumping as much as Flair did back in the day, I don’t think his work would have gotten as over as it did because he would lose that unique style in the ring.


And that’s a big part of selling that I see most wrestler’s don’t understand…heels and faces should sell in a different fashion. The heel sell is more of an instance where the heel is generally surprised by the face. The heel is taking the face too lightly and the face hits him with a move he didn’t expect and the heel is shocked by it and is now backing off. The babyface sell is more of a comeback mode where they may be down, but they are fighting to get up.


Ricky Morton usually gets credit as the best babyface seller of all time and I agree. You watch Morton and he never over-bumped nor did he have those ‘knockout blow’ sells. Morton would get hit by a move or a strike and he would sell it like it ‘took the starch out of him.’ And then he would slowly progress to getting his strength back up. And if he got hit with a devastating blow, he wouldn’t get right back up and allow himself to be hit with another move or strike by the opponent. The opponent would have to pick up a deadweight Morton.


With today’s style of wrestling being more athletic and faster paced, I think a good match to watch is one of my favorite matches of all time.


Rey Mysterio vs. Eddy Guererro Halloween Havoc 1997.


It’s a fascinating match to watch and much of the moves and the action hold right up to today’s wrestling. The difference is that both guys knew how to sell, they knew how to pace the match and they knew how to manipulate the crowd. They knew when to hit rapid fire moves in succession, but also when to hit moves and give each other enough time so both guys could sell. It still won’t likely sell like a Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin match, but it can start to bridge the gap between the modern style and what has sold throughout the history of wrestling.







YR

Great stuff! Your passion for wrestling shines through!

 

[jrumann59]

It still won’t likely sell like a Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin match, but it can start to bridge the gap between the modern style and what has sold throughout the history of wrestling.







YR

A double turn in that match was masterful. Stone Cold basically said that it was Hart's in ring prowess and willingness to put him over that made that match what it was. Even said during the match Hart told him what to do to really sell it.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

A double turn in that match was masterful. Stone Cold basically said that it was Hart's in ring prowess and willingness to put him over that made that match what it was. Even said during the match Hart told him what to do to really sell it.

Bret was really an artist in the ring. His Summerslam match against Davey Boy Smith was incredible and Bret spent months planning the entire match out. And then when they finally had the match and started it, Davey Boy informed Bret 'I'm screwed' (in not in that exact terminology) because Davey Boy was in no condition to perform. Bret had to carry that entire match which lasted about 30 minutes long and was incredible.

The only thing I hated about Bret's career was when he became the champion they started to run the storyline where Bret would get dominated by his opponent for most of the match and then the opponent would miss a move and Bret would hit the '5 Moves of Death' and hook the Sharpshooter and win. But, that's more of a Vince thing than a Bret thing.

Austin was a great worker in his own right and as brilliant of a wrestling mind as there has ever been. The big reason why the WWE succeeded in the 90's is that their 3 top guys were Austin, The Rock and Mick Foley. All of whom were wrestling fans growing up that were extremely smart to the business, they knew how to get over on the mic, they knew how to work in the ring and they didn't have much of an issue in putting people over. They were not only mega-over, but they provided great leadership. And for the most part, Vince steered clear of telling them what to do and did what he does best in wrestling...marketing the product and the stars along with being a heel character.







YR

 

[jrumann59]

Bret was really an artist in the ring. His Summerslam match against Davey Boy Smith was incredible and Bret spent months planning the entire match out. And then when they finally had the match and started it, Davey Boy informed Bret 'I'm screwed' (in not in that exact terminology) because Davey Boy was in no condition to perform. Bret had to carry that entire match which lasted about 30 minutes long and was incredible.

The only thing I hated about Bret's career was when he became the champion they started to run the storyline where Bret would get dominated by his opponent for most of the match and then the opponent would miss a move and Bret would hit the '5 Moves of Death' and hook the Sharpshooter and win. But, that's more of a Vince thing than a Bret thing.

Austin was a great worker in his own right and as brilliant of a wrestling mind as there has ever been. The big reason why the WWE succeeded in the 90's is that their 3 top guys were Austin, The Rock and Mick Foley. All of whom were wrestling fans growing up that were extremely smart to the business, they knew how to get over on the mic, they knew how to work in the ring and they didn't have much of an issue in putting people over. They were not only mega-over, but they provided great leadership. And for the most part, Vince steered clear of telling them what to do and did what he does best in wrestling...marketing the product and the stars along with being a heel character.







YR

I have heard a lot of stories about Bret making things happen that probably would have bombed. Just imagine if Vince would have kept Hall during that time also. The nWo was Halls baby and the early success of it was his blueprint then unfortunately his demons caught up with him and you could see that no one else could put the same edge on the nWo.

That 5 moves of death thing was just carry over from the Hogan formula, Vince always loved Hogan even when Hogan left.

 

[timb2]

They are missing the MIC skills and just storylines. Here was a back in the day local wrestler "Dream Machine" that I loved!! Kind of suppose to be Dusty Rhodes in a mask,but he was a riot as a heel.


Dream Machine will jump in and it is hilarious when he loses it


You notice a TV audience back then could make as much noise as a today WWE big event