News: Qualitative sack analysis

Hoofbite

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Not really a fan of grading sacks differently. Same outcome no matter if it looks pretty or not. It's a loss of down and yardage.

PFF used to do something similar for their PRP (Pass Rushing Productivity), but was overall was worse than this. They would consider a "QB Hurry" to be the equivalent of 1/2 sack, which is of course is ludicrous.

A "QB Hurry" has no defined outcome, and if you go back to the Anthony Spencer days there's 1 play that is a perfect example of how flawed this system was. It was a game against Arizona that went to overtime and Spencer flushes the QB from the pocket. QB dumps it off to LaRod Stephens-Howling who then takes the small dump pass about 50 yards to the endzone and ends the game.

Spencer gets 1/2 sack worth of PRP on that play, but the outcome of the play was probably infinitely worse than if he had not rushed at all and been assigned to cover the flat. Now, I would have no problem with a hurry that resulted in a throw away counting for something, but to just blanketly have hurries equal 1/2 sack when they can go for TDs is completely asinine.

Outcomes are all people should measure. An ugly sack should be the same as a pretty one. If you want to add some points for forced fumbles (even if it's only recovered ones) I have no problem with that.

Every new stat site is on the hunt for some magic algorithm to more "accurately" rank productivity. Nobody is chipping points away from QBs or WRs when there's busted coverage. Nobody is giving more leniency to kickers who's misses are coming in horrible weather conditions.

I don't see why pass rushing is the one area where people are so focused on nitpicking or introducing additional measures to try and separate one player from another. Let the numbers speak for themselves. If you want to get into sack rate as a percentage of attempts, fine. If you want to include some credit for forcing a throwaway, I'm okay with that. But trying to delineate between what is a good sack and what is an average sack just seems pointless.
 

Cowboys1966

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Not really a fan of grading sacks differently. Same outcome no matter if it looks pretty or not. It's a loss of down and yardage.

PFF used to do something similar for their PRP (Pass Rushing Productivity), but was overall was worse than this. They would consider a "QB Hurry" to be the equivalent of 1/2 sack, which is of course is ludicrous.

A "QB Hurry" has no defined outcome, and if you go back to the Anthony Spencer days there's 1 play that is a perfect example of how flawed this system was. It was a game against Arizona that went to overtime and Spencer flushes the QB from the pocket. QB dumps it off to LaRod Stephens-Howling who then takes the small dump pass about 50 yards to the endzone and ends the game.

Spencer gets 1/2 sack worth of PRP on that play, but the outcome of the play was probably infinitely worse than if he had not rushed at all and been assigned to cover the flat. Now, I would have no problem with a hurry that resulted in a throw away counting for something, but to just blanketly have hurries equal 1/2 sack when they can go for TDs is completely asinine.

Outcomes are all people should measure. An ugly sack should be the same as a pretty one. If you want to add some points for forced fumbles (even if it's only recovered ones) I have no problem with that.

Every new stat site is on the hunt for some magic algorithm to more "accurately" rank productivity. Nobody is chipping points away from QBs or WRs when there's busted coverage. Nobody is giving more leniency to kickers who's misses are coming in horrible weather conditions.

I don't see why pass rushing is the one area where people are so focused on nitpicking or introducing additional measures to try and separate one player from another. Let the numbers speak for themselves. If you want to get into sack rate as a percentage of attempts, fine. If you want to include some credit for forcing a throwaway, I'm okay with that. But trying to delineate between what is a good sack and what is an average sack just seems pointless.
I think that’s way too simplistic. There is a def difference in sack quality…at least in terms of measuring a defenders performance.
 

cnuball21

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Not really a fan of grading sacks differently. Same outcome no matter if it looks pretty or not. It's a loss of down and yardage.

PFF used to do something similar for their PRP (Pass Rushing Productivity), but was overall was worse than this. They would consider a "QB Hurry" to be the equivalent of 1/2 sack, which is of course is ludicrous.

A "QB Hurry" has no defined outcome, and if you go back to the Anthony Spencer days there's 1 play that is a perfect example of how flawed this system was. It was a game against Arizona that went to overtime and Spencer flushes the QB from the pocket. QB dumps it off to LaRod Stephens-Howling who then takes the small dump pass about 50 yards to the endzone and ends the game.

Spencer gets 1/2 sack worth of PRP on that play, but the outcome of the play was probably infinitely worse than if he had not rushed at all and been assigned to cover the flat. Now, I would have no problem with a hurry that resulted in a throw away counting for something, but to just blanketly have hurries equal 1/2 sack when they can go for TDs is completely asinine.

Outcomes are all people should measure. An ugly sack should be the same as a pretty one. If you want to add some points for forced fumbles (even if it's only recovered ones) I have no problem with that.

Every new stat site is on the hunt for some magic algorithm to more "accurately" rank productivity. Nobody is chipping points away from QBs or WRs when there's busted coverage. Nobody is giving more leniency to kickers who's misses are coming in horrible weather conditions.

I don't see why pass rushing is the one area where people are so focused on nitpicking or introducing additional measures to try and separate one player from another. Let the numbers speak for themselves. If you want to get into sack rate as a percentage of attempts, fine. If you want to include some credit for forcing a throwaway, I'm okay with that. But trying to delineate between what is a good sack and what is an average sack just seems pointless.

Because they should be evaluated differently. Sacks are partially QB dependent on how good their pocket presence is and how good they are at getting the all out. Ex Wentz.

This is why it drives me nuts when people say “this player isn’t good bc he only had X amount of sacks last year.”

It’s 2022…use all the data that is out there.
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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So the Cowboys have 3 of the top 15 in the league.

It's sure nice to have a serious pass ru
eagles have 2 of the top 10....

we have more depth.

so we need to make sure we run the ball and if we average at least 3+ yards, then we can have some success slowing down their pass rush.
 

Hoofbite

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Because they should be evaluated differently. Sacks are partially QB dependent on how good their pocket presence is and how good they are at getting the all out. Ex Wentz.

This is why it drives me nuts when people say “this player isn’t good bc he only had X amount of sacks last year.”

It’s 2022…use all the data that is out there.

Judging sacks based on whether or not someone subjectively identifies them as legit or not is not "using all the data". Outcomes are all that matter? You gonna take away a sack from Micah last week? Lawrence flushed the QB right to him.
 

jazzcat22

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So if a QB runs out of bounds behind the LOS. For 1 yard or 5 yards or 10 yards, it goes as a sack. And the closest players gets the credit.
I believe that is how it works still. And say the closest OL is the best OL, does that count against that OL?

So how many points do they get for that? :laugh:
 

cnuball21

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Judging sacks based on whether or not someone subjectively identifies them as legit or not is not "using all the data". Outcomes are all that matter? You gonna take away a sack from Micah last week? Lawrence flushed the QB right to him.

Of course not, if you get the sack you get the sack. Pressures, pass rush win rate, QB hurries and sacks all matter...use all the data to analyze a player.

You just used a perfect example to back my argument..."last week Lawrence flushed the QB to him" is basically saying Tank won the pass rush rep and someone else cleaned it up. Unfortunately fans that don't understand this would look at the box score and say "Tank sucks no sacks."
 

Madtowner

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Yet in the NFL not the east we are far superior in win rate and pressure etc even when not getting sacks we are affecting incompletions and killing drives. its not close, saw the graph this morning. Cowboys are so far ahead of any other team, it looks made up :))
Please provide link- I'd like to see it. Thanks!
 

McKDaddy

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Of course not, if you get the sack you get the sack. Pressures, pass rush win rate, QB hurries and sacks all matter...use all the data to analyze a player.

You just used a perfect example to back my argument..."last week Lawrence flushed the QB to him" is basically saying Tank won the pass rush rep and someone else cleaned it up. Unfortunately fans that don't understand this would look at the box score and say "Tank sucks no sacks."

But his overall point is that in far too many of these "advanced metrics" there are subjective criteria. Trying to reduce real world chaos into a tidy math equation that is relied on as "factual" is just creating misleading data.
 
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