News: Qualitative sack analysis

[blueblood70]

Please provide link- I'd like to see it. Thanks!

I saw it on TV watching on one of the channels they showed it. don't know where they found it.

 

[Proof]

But his overall point is that in far too many of these "advanced metrics" there are subjective criteria. Trying to reduce real world chaos into a tidy math equation that is relied on as "factual" is just creating misleading data.

so what? lol. just let us need out and have another metric to point to when arguing micah’s dominance. personally i appreciate the effort put in to this and love the idea of giving sacks context

 

[Sydla]

Yet in the NFL not the east we are far superior in win rate and pressure etc even when not getting sacks we are affecting incompletions and killing drives. its not close, saw the graph this morning. Cowboys are so far ahead of any other team, it looks made up )

This ESPN article from earlier in the wek suggests that while we are #1 in pass rush win rate, we aren't far and away much higher. We are at 56%, the Jags are at 52% in 2nd place, the Eagles are at 50% in 6th.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...aderboard-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams

A couple of other interesting notes about this weekend. The Eagles run stoppage rate isn't all that good (rated just behind us and we aren't a great run stop team ourselves). That's a positive for us. A negative? The Eagles are Top 10 in pass blocking win rate and we are dead last.

We better have success on the ground or we might be cooked Sunday night.

 

[McKDaddy]

so what? lol. just let us need out and have another metric to point to when arguing micah’s dominance. personally i appreciate the effort put in to this and love the idea of giving sacks context

As long as you understand it isn't an indisputable fact, that's cool.

 

[cnuball21]

But his overall point is that in far too many of these "advanced metrics" there are subjective criteria. Trying to reduce real world chaos into a tidy math equation that is relied on as "factual" is just creating misleading data.

I’m not sure I follow…the stats I referenced are charted just like everything else in football. There’s no math formula to follow it’s simple data.

Are you indicating it’s easier and more effective to simplify the evaluation to sacks only? If so, man I strongly disagree…just an archaic way of thinking IMO.

 

[exciter]

Why?

He's a legit edge player. He was a pretty smart signing by the Eagles considering they desperately needed pass rush help.

He looked like a borderline bust that first couple of years in zona…but he’s really come on strong the last couple of seasons… he had mid teen double digit sacks in Carolina last year if memory is correct!

 

[Sydla]

He looked like a borderline bust that first couple of years in zona…but he’s really come on strong the last couple of seasons… he had mid teen double digit sacks in Carolina last year if memory is correct!

He had arond 24 sacks his two previous seasons before going to Philly.

 

[MyFairLady]

Reddick is big time buyer beware. A guy who shows nothing until his contract year. Has a career year. Still only gets offered a 1 year deal. Has another good season on a contract year. Gets rewarded. So far it seems to be paying off for the Eagles but it was a very risky contract IMHO. You would have to know the guy and his situation very well to feel comfortable with that deal.

 

[Cowboys1966]

Why?

He's a legit edge player. He was a pretty smart signing by the Eagles considering they desperately needed pass rush help.

Because he has gotten about 5% of the hype Parsons has.

 

[exciter]

He had arond 24 sacks his two previous seasons before going to Philly.

He had 7.5 his first 3 seasons… light came on in 2020. If I remember correctly there was a lot of people here who wanted him the year he was in the draft!

 

[Proof]

Because he has gotten about 5% of the hype Parsons has.

same as matt judon. i didn’t realize the year he was having

 

[McKDaddy]

I’m not sure I follow…the stats I referenced are charted just like everything else in football. There’s no math formula to follow it’s simple data.

Are you indicating it’s easier and more effective to simplify the evaluation to sacks only? If so, man I strongly disagree…just an archaic way of thinking IMO.

Ok, maybe there is a simple misunderstanding. I read your comments back & forth with @Hoofbite and came away with the impression that you thought everything could be converted to absolute numeric values. And once numeric value was assigned it could be used in any metric imaginable and should be considered fact.
My point, using his example of .5 sack for a pressure, was that the .5 is an arbitrary value. As well as what constitutes a hurry is subjective from viewer to viewer. Fine with trying to find meaningful ways to evaluate performance just that we shouldn't treat things with arbitrary\subjective components as if they are absolute fact.

 

[tyke1doe]

Interesting site which attempts to give more meaningful insight into pass rusher performance

https://trenchwarfare.substack.com/p/the-2022-true-sack-rate-tsr-week-aac

Any analysis that measures output in numbers is NOT a qualitative analysis.

Qualitative observations are observations that describe “qualities” of something. These would include characteristics such as texture, color, shape, and do not involve counting or measuring. Quantitative observations involve counting or measuring using standard scales.

 

[cnuball21]

Ok, maybe there is a simple misunderstanding. I read your comments back & forth with @Hoofbite and came away with the impression that you thought everything could be converted to absolute numeric values. And once numeric value was assigned it could be used in any metric imaginable and should be considered fact.
My point, using his example of .5 sack for a pressure, was that the .5 is an arbitrary value. As well as what constitutes a hurry is subjective from viewer to viewer. Fine with trying to find meaningful ways to evaluate performance just that we shouldn't treat things with arbitrary\subjective components as if they are absolute fact.

Yea, I meant you evaluate all of the stats individually (sacks / pressures/ hurries / hits / etc...) and then look at them big picture to evaluate the player.

Just can't look at sacks alone...bad bad bad.

 

[Hoofbite]

Of course not, if you get the sack you get the sack. Pressures, pass rush win rate, QB hurries and sacks all matter...use all the data to analyze a player.

You just used a perfect example to back my argument..."last week Lawrence flushed the QB to him" is basically saying Tank won the pass rush rep and someone else cleaned it up. Unfortunately fans that don't understand this would look at the box score and say "Tank sucks no sacks."

But what I am asking is if you would discredit Micah's sack on that play. Of course you wouldn't.

 

[Cowboys1966]

Any analysis that measures output in numbers is NOT a qualitative analysis.

Qualitative observations are observations that describe “qualities” of something. These would include characteristics such as texture, color, shape, and do not involve counting or measuring. Quantitative observations involve counting or measuring using standard scales.

Did you even read how they derive their results? They literally watch the plays And essentially determine the quality of the sack and apply a score to it… So yes it results in a number, but that number is much more than just a quantity.

I.e.
The TSR will provide us with each rusher’s “sack score,” based on a point system that specifies four different types of sacks and forced fumbles, as outlined below:

1.25 points: Rare High Quality (RHQ) Sack - A 1-on-1 win over a very good (Ex: Laremy Tunsil) or elite (Ex: Trent Williams) blocker due to the rusher’s skill, move(s) and/or athletic ability.

Example: (2021) Saints DE Cameron Jordan beating Bucs RT Tristan Wirfs 1v1 with a stab-chop move strung together with a bull-rush for a strip sack. Jordan received an additional .5 points for forcing the fumble for a total of 1.75 (1.25 RHQ + .5 forced fumble).

 

[cnuball21]

But what I am asking is if you would discredit Micah's sack on that play. Of course you wouldn't.

Of course not.

Same way I wouldn’t discredit a DB for intercepting a ball that was overthrown by a mile and went right into his hands.

Similarly measuring a CB solely by INTs is awful.

The stats still count but that is exactly why you have you use more than one to evaluate.

 

[tyke1doe]

Did you even read how they derive their results? They literally watch the plays And essentially determine the quality of the sack and apply a score to it… So yes it results in a number, but that number is much more than just a quantity.

I.e.
The TSR will provide us with each rusher’s “sack score,” based on a point system that specifies four different types of sacks and forced fumbles, as outlined below:

1.25 points: Rare High Quality (RHQ) Sack - A 1-on-1 win over a very good (Ex: Laremy Tunsil) or elite (Ex: Trent Williams) blocker due to the rusher’s skill, move(s) and/or athletic ability.

Example: (2021) Saints DE Cameron Jordan beating Bucs RT Tristan Wirfs 1v1 with a stab-chop move strung together with a bull-rush for a strip sack. Jordan received an additional .5 points for forcing the fumble for a total of 1.75 (1.25 RHQ + .5 forced fumble).

If the results are in numbers, it's not qualitative; it's quantitative.

Quantitative = according to the numbers, one player is more efficient in sacks than another.
Qualitative = players say even if they get their hands on a quarterback or get pressure and the quarterback falls, that should constitute a sack.

 

[Cowboys1966]

If the results are in numbers, it's not qualitative; it's quantitative.

Quantitative = according to the numbers, one player is more efficient in sacks than another.
Qualitative = players say even if they get their hands on a quarterback or get pressure and the quarterback falls, that should constitute a sack.

You are wrong. Sorry.

 

[Cowboys1966]

Of course not.

Same way I wouldn’t discredit a DB for intercepting a ball that was overthrown by a mile and went right into his hands.

Similarly measuring a CB solely by INTs is awful.

The stats still count but that is exactly why you have you use more than one to evaluate.

I’m not sure what you mean by discredit. In your overthrow example above, while the DB still gets credit for an interception, obviously, looking at it qualitatively, it’s really not a result of the cornerbacks ability. So using a model like the sack website does, you would assign for example a value a .25 for an INT where the pass just happened to fall in the DB’s hands, And say 1.25, if the DB was in tight coverage with the WR and made a legitimate play on the ball…