Question on the no hold call against Ellis

[BBQ101]

Does anyone know the rule on this? Did the refs get it correct?

This was the play where there was a holding on Ellis where he sacked the Quarterback, but the flag was picked up on that call becase he was able to fight through the "attempted hold" and still got the sack. Because the flag was picked up, the defensive illegal contact was the only penalty, so the Commanders got a first down. What a huge non call.

How can you pick up the flag on that? Just because he still got a sack, the hold didn't count?

Does anyone know the definative on this? Were the officials right on this? How can that be? If a receiver makes the catch when the defense pass interferes, they don't pick up the flag...they still call the penalty, its just ussually declined.

BBQ

 

[Doomsday101]

Does anyone know the rule on this? Did the refs get it correct?

This was the play where there was a holding on Ellis where he sacked the Quarterback, but the flag was picked up on that call becase he was able to fight through the "attempted hold" and still got the sack. Because the flag was picked up, the defensive illegal contact was the only penalty, so the Commanders got a first down. What a huge non call.

How can you pick up the flag on that? Just because he still got a sack, the hold didn't count?

Does anyone know the definative on this? Were the officials right on this? How can that be? If a receiver makes the catch when the defense pass interferes, they don't pick up the flag...they still call the penalty, its just ussually declined.

BBQ

I admit it is the 1st time I can recall anything like that.

 

[GoCowboysGo]

I've been watching the Cowboys since 1971, and I can't recall anything like that.

It smacks of the "non-existent" Cowboys bias.

 

[CanadianCowboysFan]

I had never heard of such a thing. Very strange.

 

[SMCowboy]

Does anyone know the rule on this? Did the refs get it correct?

This was the play where there was a holding on Ellis where he sacked the Quarterback, but the flag was picked up on that call becase he was able to fight through the "attempted hold" and still got the sack. Because the flag was picked up, the defensive illegal contact was the only penalty, so the Commanders got a first down. What a huge non call.

How can you pick up the flag on that? Just because he still got a sack, the hold didn't count?

Does anyone know the definative on this? Were the officials right on this? How can that be? If a receiver makes the catch when the defense pass interferes, they don't pick up the flag...they still call the penalty, its just ussually declined.

BBQ

I can not be forsure as this is the first that I have ever heard of it.

But, I think what they were saying is that they threw the flag because he attempted to hold Greg Ellis. But it never actually happened.

Basically I think they were saying and looking at the replay it did appear to be the case, that Jansen stuck out his arms and tried to grab Ellis, thus they threw the flag, but he never actually held Ellis.

 

[LowTech]

Everyone is trying to figure that call out. Even my wife asked me today if I'd heard any explaination of that particular call.

 

[GoCowboysGo]

If he actually never held Ellis, how could they have called it?

Are the refs anticipating calls? Could that be the reason they suck so bad?

 

[bobtheflob]

It would have been acceptable if there wasn't another penalty so that we would have declined the holding anyway. The fact that they would have cancelled each other out makes that a very bogus call.

 

[Jarv]

I can not be forsure as this is the first that I have ever heard of it.

But, I think what they were saying is that they threw the flag because he attempted to hold Greg Ellis. But it never actually happened.

Basically I think they were saying and looking at the replay it did appear to be the case, that Jansen stuck out his arms and tried to grab Ellis, thus they threw the flag, but he never actually held Ellis.

That answer makes the most sense, maybe he attempted to reach out and hold GE, but just missed and no contact was made ?

Otherwise those should have been offsetting penalties, right ?

 

[LowTech]

I can not be forsure as this is the first that I have ever heard of it.

But, I think what they were saying is that they threw the flag because he attempted to hold Greg Ellis. But it never actually happened.

Basically I think they were saying and looking at the replay it did appear to be the case, that Jansen stuck out his arms and tried to grab Ellis, thus they threw the flag, but he never actually held Ellis.

Thats like a ref throwing a flag on a DB because he thinks the DB is about to commit pass interference.

 

[Derinyar]

I swear the explaination was that since he fought through the hold it wasn't a hold.

 

[conner01]

i don't get it.they held but not good enough for the penalty?of course they did'nt do alot right so i guess they could'nt hold right either.lol

 

[BBQ101]

I can not be forsure as this is the first that I have ever heard of it.

But, I think what they were saying is that they threw the flag because he attempted to hold Greg Ellis. But it never actually happened.

Basically I think they were saying and looking at the replay it did appear to be the case, that Jansen stuck out his arms and tried to grab Ellis, thus they threw the flag, but he never actually held Ellis.

Perhaps that is the case, but wasn't explanation by the ref something along the lines of:

"There is no penalty for holding because the defender ran thru the hold"

If so, then I just don't understand. I will have to go back and watch that again tonight.

BBQ

 

[MiStar]

If you look back at the tape, he does hold Ellis, if rather poorly. The call was completely bogus.

 

[CanadianCowboysFan]

I swear the explaination was that since he fought through the hold it wasn't a hold.

Yeah he said there was no penalty for holding because Ellis ran through the hold.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I actually thought the refs were right (although I'll have to see the play again). Even if it was technically a hold, he may have held Ellis for a nanosecond and didn't even impede his progress. Same thing with Madden calling a hold on Flozell early in the game. Technically it was a hold, but in reality Flozell did almost nothing to impede the defender's progress.

Either way, I don't care too much of whether or not holds get called or not. I just would like consistency in what is and what isn't a hold. Give me that, and nobody can really ask for anything more.


YAKUZA

 

[ElGatoGrande]

IIRC, the referee's actual words were, "The flag was picked up because the defender ran through the hold",,, sounds crazy, but it may be the kind of rule phrasing that keeps them from calling "Holding" on every single play,,, though I would think that consideration would be limited to the trenches.

 

[SMCowboy]

Perhaps that is the case, but wasn't explanation by the ref something along the lines of:

"There is no penalty for holding because the defender ran thru the hold"

If so, then I just don't understand. I will have to go back and watch that again tonight.

BBQ

BBQ, you are right. He did say that there was no penelty for holding because he ran threw the hold.

My interpretation was that he had his hands out and on him as if to hold him, but Ellis was able to run threw and no hold actually accured.

Officials will ALWAYS throw the flag instinctively if they see a lineman extend their hands out past the shoulders while still being engaged on the defender. There was no doubt that Jansen attempted to hold Greg Ellis, but he never actually impeded him progress.

I have never seen a holding on by an offensive lineman waived off like this, but it does happen from time to time with defensive backs. They will get beat and reach out in a attempt to hold the WR, and a ref will instinctively throw the flag. But it will be waived off, because even though he no doubt had attempted to hold the WR he never impeded or in any way affected the WR. It appeared to me atleast to be the same situation with Greg Ellis.

 

[BBQ101]

BBQ, you are right. He did say that there was no penelty for holding because he ran threw the hold.

My interpretation was that he had his hands out and on him as if to hold him, but Ellis was able to run threw and no hold actually accured.

Officials will ALWAYS throw the flag instinctively if they see a lineman extend their hands out past the shoulders while still being engaged on the defender. There was no doubt that Jansen attempted to hold Greg Ellis, but he never actually impeded him progress.

I have never seen a holding on by an offensive lineman waived off like this, but it does happen from time to time with defensive backs. They will get beat and reach out in a attempt to hold the WR, and a ref will instinctively throw the flag. But it will be waived off, because even though he no doubt had attempted to hold the WR he never impeded or in any way affected the WR. It appeared to me atleast to be the same situation with Greg Ellis.

You and Yakuza may be on to something. Refs gotta be instinctive too. Nice explanation. Especially your talk of the offensive lineman puttin his arms out while engaged. Love this board.

BBQ

 

[Zaxor]

it maybe... that it was just the explanation that sucked and not the non-call but it still was very strange and a first for this long time Cowboy fan