question?

KJJ;4764379 said:
The root cause is not having a solid, qualified head coach who the players believe in and know is in control. This all falls on Jerry. The Cowboys greatest success under him was when his head coach was in control. Nothing is ever going change with the Cowboys if Jerry continues having all the control and hiring puppets as head coaches. He needs to bring in a big name head coach who has a track record for success, is demanding and give them the same control Jimmy had.

Unfortunately, Jerry probably won't give another coach that kind of control anymore.

From what I understood, even Parcells did not have the control Jimmy had. But he had enough control and there was enough turnaround that Mr. Jones got the stadium he wanted. Then Mr. Jones went back to the same old, same old.

I thought there needed to be a coach here who has a proven track record and is a bit heavy handed. But it appears Mr. Jones is not happy unless he has total control, and that limits the coaching list.

For now we are stuck with what we have. Unfortunately we will have to just sit and see who this all works ouo.
 
big dog cowboy;4764453 said:
Oh really? Why would I do that when it is documented what happened. Side note, Jimmy's decision was made way way before Jerry made his "500 coaches" comment.

Not calling you out there bud, but I'd like to see that documentation that said Jimmy was leaving before Jerry made that statement.

And it started with Jimmy snubbing Jerry at the 1993 SB party and including his coaches in a laugh at Jerry's expense.

But I have read just about everything on this team, and back then nothing came out that I didn't read and i do not recall Jimmy ever stating he was going to stay five years.

Jimmy was the architect and Jerry wanted the lion share of that spotlight. Jimmy was ready to walk over that.
 
lane;4764389 said:
do you think that will happen?

I don't think he'll ever give a head coach as much control as Jimmy had but I do think if the Cowboys keep spinning their wheels missing the playoffs like they did under Campo Jerry will bring in a big name head coach and give them as much say as Parcell's had. Listening to Jon Gruden last night it was almost like he was auditioning for the job.

It wouldn't shock me if he's the next Cowboys head coach. He'll get the players attention with that scowl of his and they and everyone else will know he isn't signing up to be another Jerry Jones yes man. He's led a team to a championship with Brad Johnson at QB. He understands the issues with the Cowboys and he's a motivator.

Jerry is going to have to take a step back and bring in a real head coach who knows how to energize, lead and organize a team. Just looking at Garrett's demeanor and listening to him it's obvious he's not cut out to be an NFL head coach. The teams performances under him say it all.
 
lane;4764326 said:
i've been watching the cowboys since 1975 and i know there are plenty here that have watched as long or longer than i have.



i was 8 years old when i started this obsession.

i'm 45 now.

i've seen it all....the good, the bad and everything in between.

please tell me what is the root cause of what we are seeing now?

The more pressing question is why the Cowboys, considering the defensive philosophy of its division rivals, continue to disregard the importance of a cohesive interior line, particularly center. Why does a Jason Garrett offense continue to perform sloppily. His offense has been in place through the Wade Phillips era to the present. I said it before about Wade and I'm to the point of saying it again. I'm afraid that one or both of either Garrett or Romo might not be a part of the Cowboys when they hoist another Lombardy Trophy.

When the Cowboys were winning in the nineties, they did it with the two basic things you need to do to win the NFC East ... running and defense. They seem to be solving the defense but the running game is STILL not a staple of the offense. As much as Garrett says that the Cowboys are a physical team, it rings hallow when Romo is throwing the ball over 40 times in games they fall behind in. They are a finesse team and bare no resemblance at all to the bulldozing leviathan that Norv Turner and Jimmy Johnson constructed.

What gives the Cowboys the edge? Is it Romo? Is it Murray? Is it Bryant? The defense?

The superbowl era teams had an edge, a swagger, an aura. Teams knew beforehand that they would have to pick the poison of their own demise. They also new that the coach on the sidelines opposite of them wanted to kill 'em ... and by any means necessary. On most sundays, there was a feeling that something lethal had been unleashed and the opposite team would be in for the fight of their lives, and there was only one way out ... piece by piece.

The current edition of the Cowboys is an expose in timidity and fragility. No other way to put it. The year they looked most like the super years was 2007 and whatever that was died at Texas Stadium in the third battle with the Giants. And since then, the Giants have gone on to prosper while the Cowboys continue to languish.

Like a bad cold, this o-line deficiency holds them back and there is little you can do with substandard talent. It must run its course. Romo will not get better behind the current group. The team will succeed in spite of them, not because of them.

The more sobering analysis is the fact that free-agency has guaranteed a level playing field and the quality of all teams have suffered as a result. Gone are the days when everyone knew that it would be San Francisco and Dallas at the end of the season. Teams are so thin at important skill positions that winning back to back championships is more difficult now than its ever been.

Most of this mess can certainly be laid at Jerry Jones' feet and he seems to want flash more than substance. A team that never drafted a receiver with its first pick after Johnson chooses Dez Bryant, an undeniable talent, but who looks increasingly like a player who can't get out of his own way. Since the debacle against the Giants in 2007, the o-line has been neglected and only this year has begun to be addressed in a serious manner. Jones pays too much, too soon and keeps his players too long, as Terence Newman showed for example. He wants a docile and conciliatory coach who can co-exist in his model of control over a franchise that has won just one playoff game in sixteen seasons. Does he care immensely about his team? Unequivocally, but unless something changes, there might be many more seasons of mediocrity to follow.
 
bysbox1;4764455 said:
Unfortunately, Jerry probably won't give another coach that kind of control anymore.

From what I understood, even Parcells did not have the control Jimmy had. But he had enough control and there was enough turnaround that Mr. Jones got the stadium he wanted. Then Mr. Jones went back to the same old, same old.

I thought there needed to be a coach here who has a proven track record and is a bit heavy handed. But it appears Mr. Jones is not happy unless he has total control, and that limits the coaching list.

For now we are stuck with what we have. Unfortunately we will have to just sit and see who this all works ouo.

I agree he probably won't ever give a head coach as much control as Jimmy had but if he brings in a big name coach that sends a powerful message. A big name coach isn't going to take the job unless they have enough control to build the team the way they want. Right now this is a shakier 2-2 record than the Cowboys had at this time last season.

I'm seeing some very troubling things with the Cowboys right now. They better figure out something during the bye week or we're looking at a very long season.
 
KJJ;4764434 said:
I haven't researched it but I doubt there's any current head coach in the league that spent only 5 years like Garrett working their way up to be an NFL head coach. I'm convinced from watching the Cowboys play under Garrett that the players don't believe in him. After 28 games under him the team shows no desire, passion or resiliency.

I'm going to give you a few numbers:

18 years
17 years
23 years
25 years
28 years
20 years
28 years
14 years

Those are the number of years that Sean Payton, Jim Harbaugh, John Harbaugh, Mike Smith, Chuck Pagano, Jim Schwartz, Joe Philbin, and Ron Rivera had before getting their first HC gig. The person with the least experience coaching at any position and any level was Ron Rivera with 14 years coaching experience before he got the North Carolina job.

All of these men did extensive coaching either at the Collegiate or Pro level. They were successful and have coached at multiple levels, whether a coordinator or a position coach, or quality control, or scouting (Jim Schwartz was a scout for 3 years), even special teams. You don't coach in the NFL for that length of time above without doing something right.

Jason Garrett had 6 total years of experience before becoming the Interim and eventual head coach in Dallas. His only position coaching was 2 years as QB coach at Miami.

My arguement is, has been, and always will be, that Garrett did not have enough skins on the wall to be a head coach yet. He has not had enough time in the trenches learing and watching situations to know better. Now I am not saying Garrett won't be a good head coach. I just never thought he was ready. And to me the NFL is the worst place to learn how to be a head coach via "on the job experience."

Now I know There have been situations in the past where head coaches have had the same or less expience as Garrett and became head coaches, but that was back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's where the NFL was much different. I think you really need that length of experience in today's NFL.

Again, this is JMHO.
 
kramskoi;4764470 said:
The more pressing question is why the Cowboys, considering the defensive philosophy of its division rivals, continue to disregard the importance of a cohesive interior line, particularly center. Why does a Jason Garrett offense continue to perform sloppily. His offense has been in place through the Wade Phillips era to the present. I said it before about Wade and I'm to the point of saying it again. I'm afraid that one or both of either Garrett or Romo might not be a part of the Cowboys when they hoist another Lombardy Trophy.

When the Cowboys were winning in the nineties, they did it with the two basic things you need to do to win the NFC East ... running and defense. They seem to be solving the defense but the running game is STILL not a staple of the offense. As much as Garrett says that the Cowboys are a physical team, it rings hallow when Romo is throwing the ball over 40 times in games they fall behind in. They are a finesse team and bare no resemblance at all to the bulldozing leviathan that Norv Turner and Jimmy Johnson constructed.

What gives the Cowboys the edge? Is it Romo? Is it Murray? Is it Bryant? The defense?

The superbowl era teams had an edge, a swagger, an aura. Teams knew beforehand that they would have to pick the poison of their own demise. They also new that the coach on the sidelines opposite of them wanted to kill 'em ... and by any means necessary. On most sundays, there was a feeling that something lethal had been unleashed and the opposite team would be in for the fight of their lives, and there was only one way out ... piece by piece.

Also don't forget that those teams of the 90's had great players in the trenches. The offensive and defensive were ferocious.

It's not the case today. About the only 2 or 3 people that scare anyone on either line would by Tyron Smith, Demarcus Ware, and Jay Ratliff who's not playing.
 
TwoDeep3;4764458 said:
Not calling you out there bud, but I'd like to see that documentation that said Jimmy was leaving before Jerry made that statement.
Just google it and you will find it. It's really fairly easy to find. I've read several articles referencing this. According to a TV documentary I saw once, Jimmy said he decided to leave BEFORE the super bowl was even played.
 
bysbox1;4764507 said:
I'm going to give you a few numbers:

18 years
17 years
23 years
25 years
28 years
20 years
28 years
14 years

Those are the number of years that Sean Payton, Jim Harbaugh, John Harbaugh, Mike Smith, Chuck Pagano, Jim Schwartz, Joe Philbin, and Ron Rivera had before getting their first HC gig. The person with the least experience coaching at any position and any level was Ron Rivera with 14 years coaching experience before he got the North Carolina job.

All of these men did extensive coaching either at the Collegiate or Pro level. They were successful and have coached at multiple levels, whether a coordinator or a position coach, or quality control, or scouting (Jim Schwartz was a scout for 3 years), even special teams. You don't coach in the NFL for that length of time above without doing something right.

Jason Garrett had 6 total years of experience before becoming the Interim and eventual head coach in Dallas. His only position coaching was 2 years as QB coach at Miami.

My arguement is, has been, and always will be, that Garrett did not have enough skins on the wall to be a head coach yet. He has not had enough time in the trenches learing and watching situations to know better. Now I am not saying Garrett won't be a good head coach. I just never thought he was ready. And to me the NFL is the worst place to learn how to be a head coach via "on the job experience."

Now I know There have been situations in the past where head coaches have had the same or less expience as Garrett and became head coaches, but that was back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's where the NFL was much different. I think you really need that length of experience in today's NFL.

Again, this is JMHO.

That's about what I figured coaches spend YEARS working their way up the ranks before getting an NFL head coaching job. Garrett was handed the interim head coaching job only 6 years into his coaching career. He didn't have the experience and wasn't ready for the opportunity and the team reflects it. He's clearly in over his head.
 
Look at the Cowboys' recent failures in managing veteran personnel, drafting, coaches, schemes, etc. Then look at the one common denominator in all of that. One thing has remained unchanged during these years of limited success.
 
KJJ;4764465 said:
I don't think he'll ever give a head coach as much control as Jimmy had but I do think if the Cowboys keep spinning their wheels missing the playoffs like they did under Campo Jerry will bring in a big name head coach and give them as much say as Parcell's had. Listening to Jon Gruden last night it was almost like he was auditioning for the job.

It wouldn't shock me if he's the next Cowboys head coach. He'll get the players attention with that scowl of his and they and everyone else will know he isn't signing up to be another Jerry Jones yes man. He's led a team to a championship with Brad Johnson at QB. He understands the issues with the Cowboys and he's a motivator.

Jerry is going to have to take a step back and bring in a real head coach who knows how to energize, lead and organize a team. Just looking at Garrett's demeanor and listening to him it's obvious he's not cut out to be an NFL head coach. The teams performances under him say it all.

Gruden was one of the guys I wanted.

He's worked in in environments similar to Dallas in Oakland and to a less extent Tampa Bay, and was successful there.

He has the experience, yet he's young enough to relate to today's NFL player.

The only problem I saw was he's a West Coast offense coach. But had Mr. Jones pulled that trigger back in 2010, Romo would have been in his 3rd year in a West Coast offense and probably would have good grasp of it now.
 
bysbox1;4764507 said:
I'm going to give you a few numbers:

18 years
17 years
23 years
25 years
28 years
20 years
28 years
14 years

Those are the number of years that Sean Payton, Jim Harbaugh, John Harbaugh, Mike Smith, Chuck Pagano, Jim Schwartz, Joe Philbin, and Ron Rivera had before getting their first HC gig. The person with the least experience coaching at any position and any level was Ron Rivera with 14 years coaching experience before he got the North Carolina job.

All of these men did extensive coaching either at the Collegiate or Pro level. They were successful and have coached at multiple levels, whether a coordinator or a position coach, or quality control, or scouting (Jim Schwartz was a scout for 3 years), even special teams. You don't coach in the NFL for that length of time above without doing something right.

Jason Garrett had 6 total years of experience before becoming the Interim and eventual head coach in Dallas. His only position coaching was 2 years as QB coach at Miami.

My arguement is, has been, and always will be, that Garrett did not have enough skins on the wall to be a head coach yet. He has not had enough time in the trenches learing and watching situations to know better. Now I am not saying Garrett won't be a good head coach. I just never thought he was ready. And to me the NFL is the worst place to learn how to be a head coach via "on the job experience."

Now I know There have been situations in the past where head coaches have had the same or less expience as Garrett and became head coaches, but that was back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's where the NFL was much different. I think you really need that length of experience in today's NFL.

Again, this is JMHO.

I think Jerry looked at Garrett like his version of Sean Payton. "He look what I created". If Garrett fails, Jerry fails. We can't have that now can we?
 
lane;4764326 said:
i've been watching the cowboys since 1975 and i know there are plenty here that have watched as long or longer than i have.



i was 8 years old when i started this obsession.

i'm 45 now.

i've seen it all....the good, the bad and everything in between.

please tell me what is the root cause of what we are seeing now?

See my sig below, that should explain it...
 
lane;4764326 said:
i've been watching the cowboys since 1975 and i know there are plenty here that have watched as long or longer than i have.



i was 8 years old when i started this obsession.

i'm 45 now.

i've seen it all....the good, the bad and everything in between.

please tell me what is the root cause of what we are seeing now?

We as fans, and Jerry, vastly overrate the talent we have (or don't have) on this team. That is just for starters. The problems run deep though.
 
popp1234;4764573 said:
I think Jerry looked at Garrett like his version of Sean Payton. "He look what I created". If Garrett fails, Jerry fails. We can't have that now can we?

But he failed to realize that they are not the same coach. Payton had WAY more experiece than Garrett.
 

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