Questions about the FLEX D ...

[Eddie]

Sup guys, I was sitting outside for lunch in this brilliant NYC weather ... pondering the important issues in life. Who are we gonna draft? Any FA's? Blah blah blah.

Then I started to think about the Cowboys of old. I've been a Cowboy fan since 1978. Back in those days, I remember the Cowboys as the only team to employ the Flex Defense. Am I correct in this?

Were there any other teams using the Flex at any time since it's inception?

Considering the NFL has always been a copy-cat league, and Tom Landry played in 5 Super Bowls with the Flex Defense ... I was wondering if any other teams employed it.

If not, why not???

Tom Landry was a genius and an innovator ... and is the grandfather of much of what we see today in the NFL. The 4-3 D's of today are a direct descendent from Tom's orginal creation.

The shotgun and multiple shifting WR's were all Tom's devinations.

But why did no one else copy the Flex? Granted, it's basically a 4-3 D with one or two of the DLmen moved back half a step in a four point stance. I remember Randy White was a monster coming out of that four point stance.

Was it the read and react nature of the D? Was it the high reliance on the MLB?

Just curious ...

 

[Chief]

Sup guys, I was sitting outside for lunch in this brilliant NYC weather ... pondering the important issues in life. Who are we gonna draft? Any FA's? Blah blah blah.

Then I started to think about the Cowboys of old. I've been a Cowboy fan since 1978. Back in those days, I remember the Cowboys as the only team to employ the Flex Defense. Am I correct in this?

Were there any other teams using the Flex at any time since it's inception?

Considering the NFL has always been a copy-cat league, and Tom Landry played in 5 Super Bowls with the Flex Defense ... I was wondering if any other teams employed it.

If not, why not???

Tom Landry was a genius and an innovator ... and is the grandfather of much of what we see today in the NFL. The 4-3 D's of today are a direct descendent from Tom's orginal creation.

The shotgun and multiple shifting WR's were all Tom's devinations.

But why did no one else copy the Flex? Granted, it's basically a 4-3 D with one or two of the DLmen moved back half a step in a four point stance. I remember Randy White was a monster coming out of that four point stance.

Was it the read and react nature of the D? Was it the high reliance on the MLB?

Just curious ...

That's a great question.

I may be mistaken, but I don't remember any other team trying to play it.

In my opinion, Landry and Dallas succeeded in it for several years because Landry was able to get the right players for it.

The defense required a great amount of discipline. It required players who were students of the game. You couldn't just rely on instincts and turn it loose. Each guy had to play his role, or it would fall apart.

Intelligent guys like Dennis Thurman, Dextor Clinkscale, Bob Breunig, Charlie Waters, Mike Hegman and Cliff Harris thrived in it.

There was a period in the 1970s and early 1980s that it worked well because Landry had the players to pull it off.

But the wheels came off later on because the new players lacked the discipline to make it work. Critics say that one of Landry's undoings was his stubborness and refusal to ditch the flex when it didn't work as well. Landry was like a gridiron scientist who always believed in his creation. Later on, many of the players no longer did and it fell apart.

I think it was just an unusual defense that required so much to happen for it to work, that other teams didn't dare go there.

That may be simplistic view, but .....

 

[Eddie]

Yeah, when the talent disappeared in the mid to late 80's, Tom's scheme's took alot of critizism. Though, I'm not sure any scheme would have worked with that lousy talent case.

You just can't replace Bob Bruenig with Gene Lockhart.

So basically, I was correct ... no other team used the Flex other than the Cowboys. Very interesting ...

 

[LongSnapper]

"Tom Landry was a genius and an innovator" You got that right, it was said that it took several years for players to become acclimated to an extremly disciplined nuances of the flex so in todays nfl of I need production NOW! it really isint feasible IMO. Another consideration you have to take into account is that the defensive staff that Landry had pretty much stayed with him throughout his years, hence there were no 'Flex" experts just milling about the coaching ranks of the NFL... Just My 2cents

 

[DiscipleofTuna]

From what I gathered the Flex is more a read and react D which required an intelligence that is not quite there with todays players. Meaning that its tough to get 11 students on one scheme. I think the closest team/coach to experimenting with differing schemes is Belichick. I think todays D must be an attacking D forcing the offenses hand, not the other way around. JMO.

 

[Doomsday101]

One big thing you see with the flex is along the front 4 where the lineman would be staggered up from with the DT lining up about a half yard deeper. One thing that started to hurt the flex were the quick hitters up the middle. While Tom did bring the flex to Dallas the thing I loved most was some of his offensive ideals like having the lineman all raise up at once and get set all at once while backs and WR were going in motion. As a Kid I always thought that was so cool looking.

 

[CrazyCowboy]

I believe you are correct.......at the very least Dallas was the first team to use it.......

 

[ravidubey]

Too Tall hated the Flex because it made him defend the run first and thus took the edge off his pass rush. I remember several plays where he sniffed out a pass, ditched the Flex, and terrorized the poor QB. I can only imagine how many sacks he would have had were it not for the Flex.

After 1978, many teams began adapting those Gillman-derived offenses-- either timing-based or WCO-- that passed on first down. Dallas lost NFC title games to both Washington and San Francisco during this stretch. One really wonders what could have been had Landry just cut loose the dogs!

 

[burmafrd]

It was the offenses inability to make the big plays that doomed us in the 80's. The D was still nasty and mean. As regards the Flex, Dick Nolan when he coached the 49rs was the only other team that used the Flex. It took very disciplined and smart player and takes a while for them to learn. It could not work now since you do not have2-3 years for young players to learn it while NOT starting or playing much. By 1984, the talent level was dropping and that was the main reason it did not work. We had an aging Manster and Too Tall- no young good DL's and not many good LB's and that was the beginning of the end of the Flex. I think if you got the right players it could still be a fine D- but just cannot be done now.

 

[Zaxor]

That's a great question.

I may be mistaken, but I don't remember any other team trying to play it.

In my opinion, Landry and Dallas succeeded in it for several years because Landry was able to get the right players for it.

The defense required a great amount of discipline. It required players who were students of the game. You couldn't just rely on instincts and turn it loose. Each guy had to play his role, or it would fall apart.

Intelligent guys like Dennis Thurman, Dextor Clinkscale, Bob Breunig, Charlie Waters, Mike Hegman and Cliff Harris thrived in it.

There was a period in the 1970s and early 1980s that it worked well because Landry had the players to pull it off.

But the wheels came off later on because the new players lacked the discipline to make it work. Critics say that one of Landry's undoings was his stubborness and refusal to ditch the flex when it didn't work as well. Landry was like a gridiron scientist who always believed in his creation. Later on, many of the players no longer did and it fell apart.

I think it was just an unusual defense that required so much to happen for it to work, that other teams didn't dare go there.

That may be simplistic view, but .....

I agree and I would also like to add that it took continuity.. so it certainly would not work in todays NFL

 

[Eddie]

One big thing you see with the flex is along the front 4 where the lineman would be staggered up from with the DT lining up about a half yard deeper. One thing that started to hurt the flex were the quick hitters up the middle. While Tom did bring the flex to Dallas the thing I loved most was some of his offensive ideals like having the lineman all raise up at once and get set all at once while backs and WR were going in motion. As a Kid I always thought that was so cool looking.

Ah yes, the OL Hitch. I loved that. Built unity to the OL.

I sorta wished the team would have done the OL Hitch to commemorate Landry ... just once to start the season.

 

[dwmyers]

* Burmafrd is right; Dick Nolan's 49ers played the Flex as well.

* The Flex, iirc, was to some extent a reaction to the Lombardi sweep. At least in this guise, the idea was to put someone like, say, Bob Lilly nose on the pulling guard. Lilly was so fast he could beat the cut block, follow the guard, and catch the ball carrier in the backfield. The deal with the Flex is that it's just an elaboration of a 4-3 line spacing that goes something like this:

o * * o

The tackles are both pulled back a few inches to give them time to adjust to the guard's block and pursue along the line.

In the Flex, with Lilly nose on to the guard in front of him, you get.

* o * o

And if you expect an outside left run, with the right guard pulling, you would Flex as so:

o * o *

Otherwise, it was a read-and-react gap control defense. Players holding outside gaps were not to pursue, they were to stay in place and wait for the play to come to them. I think it was the latter, which isn't intuitive, which has led to only a couple people playing this kind of system. It's easier to teach defensive linemen to penetrate and pursue than this kind of cerebral and counterintuitive defensive system.

Because it was read-and-react and run oriented, it tended to be vulnerable to the first down pass; the pass rush wasn't automatic then. Big powerful runners, like Franco Harris, could just destroy the system entirely, by overpowering the whole team at the point of attack. Then again big powerful runners would do that to most any system .

David.

 

[burmafrd]

To this day most D's are built to stop the run first- that has not changed. But the pass rush is more important then it was. I think you could work the flex today but the time needed to learn it well is the killer; you do not have that much time anymore.

 

[Chief]

* Burmafrd is right; Dick Nolan's 49ers played the Flex as well.

* The Flex, iirc, was to some extent a reaction to the Lombardi sweep. At least in this guise, the idea was to put someone like, say, Bob Lilly nose on the pulling guard. Lilly was so fast he could beat the cut block, follow the guard, and catch the ball carrier in the backfield. The deal with the Flex is that it's just an elaboration of a 4-3 line spacing that goes something like this:

o * * o

The tackles are both pulled back a few inches to give them time to adjust to the guard's block and pursue along the line.

In the Flex, with Lilly nose on to the guard in front of him, you get.

* o * o

And if you expect an outside left run, with the right guard pulling, you would Flex as so:

o * o *

Otherwise, it was a read-and-react gap control defense. Players holding outside gaps were not to pursue, they were to stay in place and wait for the play to come to them. I think it was the latter, which isn't intuitive, which has led to only a couple people playing this kind of system. It's easier to teach defensive linemen to penetrate and pursue than this kind of cerebral and counterintuitive defensive system.

Because it was read-and-react and run oriented, it tended to be vulnerable to the first down pass; the pass rush wasn't automatic then. Big powerful runners, like Franco Harris, could just destroy the system entirely, by overpowering the whole team at the point of attack. Then again big powerful runners would do that to most any system .

David.

Well done.

:clap2:

 

[Ratmatt]

Sup guys, I was sitting outside for lunch in this brilliant NYC weather ... pondering the important issues in life. Who are we gonna draft? Any FA's? Blah blah blah.

Then I started to think about the Cowboys of old. I've been a Cowboy fan since 1978. Back in those days, I remember the Cowboys as the only team to employ the Flex Defense. Am I correct in this?

Were there any other teams using the Flex at any time since it's inception?

Considering the NFL has always been a copy-cat league, and Tom Landry played in 5 Super Bowls with the Flex Defense ... I was wondering if any other teams employed it.

If not, why not???

Tom Landry was a genius and an innovator ... and is the grandfather of much of what we see today in the NFL. The 4-3 D's of today are a direct descendent from Tom's orginal creation.

The shotgun and multiple shifting WR's were all Tom's devinations.

But why did no one else copy the Flex? Granted, it's basically a 4-3 D with one or two of the DLmen moved back half a step in a four point stance. I remember Randy White was a monster coming out of that four point stance.

Was it the read and react nature of the D? Was it the high reliance on the MLB?

Just curious ...

The 49ers used the shotgun for a few years back in the 1950's.The great Tom Landry brought it back in 1975.

 

[Ratmatt]

It was the offenses inability to make the big plays that doomed us in the 80's. The D was still nasty and mean. As regards the Flex, Dick Nolan when he coached the 49rs was the only other team that used the Flex. It took very disciplined and smart player and takes a while for them to learn. It could not work now since you do not have2-3 years for young players to learn it while NOT starting or playing much. By 1984, the talent level was dropping and that was the main reason it did not work. We had an aging Manster and Too Tall- no young good DL's and not many good LB's and that was the beginning of the end of the Flex. I think if you got the right players it could still be a fine D- but just cannot be done now.

Dick Nolan used the flex because he learned it playing and coaching under the great Tom Landry.

 

[TruBlueCowboy]

As the resident young whipper snapper, gonna have to disagree with some of you fellas who say today's NFL players aren't smart enough to play this. If anything, today's players are much smarter than past players. Ya just can't get away with those basket weaving degrees like ya used to. Ya have to get basket weaving with a minor in chalkboard writing.

Anyways, while Landry was a football genius who innovated the game in many ways, I think it goes back to the age ol' dilemma of is it the X's and O's or the players. Everyone says his scheme didn't work when he lost the talent. Well..... I think you could say that about any coach. Any coach looks like a genius when he has Harvey Martin, Randy White, Hollywood Henderson, Too Tall Jones, Cliff Harris, Charlie Waters, and the list goes on.... My god that team was loaded. Frankly, I think a high school coach could do some damage on defense with that kind of talent.

I think the folks who have the most valid point are the ones who say today's NFL doesn't allow enough continuity to develop a defense like that. That's true. Having the same veterans year after year, not having to rely on rookies year in and year out to replace roles that normally would have had 5 year or more vets in 'em in the 70's, that hurts! But don't insult today's players and say they aren't smart enough to understand Landry's flex defense. Most rookies are dumb, no matter what era they came from.

 

[Rack]

Tom Landry was a genius and an innovator ... and is the grandfather of much of what we see today in the NFL. The 4-3 D's of today are a direct descendent from Tom's orginal creation.

The 4-3 already existed before Tom Landry's Flex. And no one runs the flex nowadays.

I'm sure it's already been mentioned but I didn't read ahead.

The shotgun and multiple shifting WR's were all Tom's devinations.

Landry brought back the Shotgun, but it doesn't exist because of him. Maybe partially (cuz he brought it back) but it wasn't his invention.

 

[MapleLeaf]

Ah yes, the OL Hitch. I loved that. Built unity to the OL.

I sorta wished the team would have done the OL Hitch to commemorate Landry ... just once to start the season.

... a nice commemorative move as long as the refs don't call it a penalty for enticing an offside.

 

[adbutcher]

* Burmafrd is right; Dick Nolan's 49ers played the Flex as well.

* The Flex, iirc, was to some extent a reaction to the Lombardi sweep. At least in this guise, the idea was to put someone like, say, Bob Lilly nose on the pulling guard. Lilly was so fast he could beat the cut block, follow the guard, and catch the ball carrier in the backfield. The deal with the Flex is that it's just an elaboration of a 4-3 line spacing that goes something like this:

o * * o

The tackles are both pulled back a few inches to give them time to adjust to the guard's block and pursue along the line.

In the Flex, with Lilly nose on to the guard in front of him, you get.

* o * o

And if you expect an outside left run, with the right guard pulling, you would Flex as so:

o * o *

Otherwise, it was a read-and-react gap control defense. Players holding outside gaps were not to pursue, they were to stay in place and wait for the play to come to them. I think it was the latter, which isn't intuitive, which has led to only a couple people playing this kind of system. It's easier to teach defensive linemen to penetrate and pursue than this kind of cerebral and counterintuitive defensive system.

Because it was read-and-react and run oriented, it tended to be vulnerable to the first down pass; the pass rush wasn't automatic then. Big powerful runners, like Franco Harris, could just destroy the system entirely, by overpowering the whole team at the point of attack. Then again big powerful runners would do that to most any system .

David.