Random thoughts on Falcons/Vick/Shaub

[MonsterD]

Yes hindsight is everything, but in 2005-6 and beyond I was amazed why the Falcons never started Shaub over Vick. Fast forward to today the Falcons just gutted the Eagles and Vick also the Texans with Shaub are 6-1, Falcons sans Vick are 7-0, the Vick led Eagles are 3-4.

Whoever kept starting Vick should be barred or blacklisted from the NFL forever.

That is something crazy even if you think on how fortunate the Falcons are to have Ryan today after that scale of mismanagement.

 

[Wolfpack]

Some teams run themselves like a cold hearted business and Vick sold more soda than anybody else on that team during that time. He brought national NFL attention to Atlanta every week. Some owners value that sort of stuff over winning and I think Blank is a pretty good businessman.

 

[esmith1790]

Draft status and face of the franchise. big difference at the time.

 

[Yeagermeister]

When you have the owner of the team pushing you around in your wheelchair on the sidelines you know your job is safe.

 

[arglebargle]

It was obvious who was the better QB at the time too. But Face of the Team/NFL was more important. Jersey sales you know.

I am sure it would be real interesting to hear the full story from Reeves, but he's too old school to blab much, I think.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Some teams run themselves like a cold hearted business and Vick sold more soda than anybody else on that team during that time. He brought national NFL attention to Atlanta every week. Some owners value that sort of stuff over winning and I think Blank is a pretty good businessman.

There are owners who are more interested in the bottom line over winning a super bowl. It's hard to believe but it's true. I see it every day with the Chiefs.

 

[Hoofbite]

It's amazing what kind of a production you get from a guy who's trying to put food on the table versus what kind of production you get from a guy who's got $100M locked up.

Vick's best play came when he had to prove himself.

Colin Cowherd was trashing the hell out of him today because Vick was saying he needs to get back to "playing his style" and that he needs to regain "his swag".

Cowherd basically said that his style is exactly what got him into the situation he is in now. He's not a QB. His style is run-first.

IMO, He's no longer head-and-shoulders above the rest of the league because the game has evolved so quickly. JPP and others can track him down from behind. He can't throw worth a **** and defensive players are gaining a step each and every year. Cowherd also said he doesn't see the field or the big picture at all. He mentioned how RG3 kind of scoffed at the idea of being compared to Cam Newton and said he'd rather be compared to Aaron Rodgers.

Cowher said that RG3 just "gets it" whereas Vick doesn't.

A lot of times I think Cowherd is just rambling for the sake of generating an audio clip but in this instance I think he nailed it. Vick doesn't get it. Vick said he still believes he's one of the best players in the game and Colin said he's probably not even one of the best players on his team.

Vick is a total waste. I'm ecstatic the Eagles have to live with that contract. He's trash and he will only get worse with age. Once his already depreciated mobility goes out the window he's going to be nothing more than an Interceptaverde clone.

He's not a professional at all. He's just an athlete and even a stay in Leavenworth wasn't enough to wash the smugness from him. He's the perfect example of what talent could be if applied in the correct manner and what natural athleticism cannot be if taken for granted.

I love the fact that he's completely horrid as a QB and he plays for Philly.

I guess the only downside of the situation is that Philly can cut him after this season and only take a cap hit of like 4M. It's a damn shame they didn't guarantee a lot more of that contract.

 

[BAZ]

All Vick bias aside, using the term 'swag' as a QB is just mind blowing. Stupidity like that is what got him in jail.

Eagles still scare me though. They took the Cowboys lunch money last year.

 

[Dodger12]

Yes hindsight is everything, but in 2005-6 and beyond I was amazed why the Falcons never started Shaub over Vick.

Whoever kept starting Vick should be barred or blacklisted from the NFL forever.

That is something crazy even if you think on how fortunate the Falcons are to have Ryan today after that scale of mismanagement.

They were coming off an 11 and 5 season in 2004 and won the NFC South. Schab was drafted in 2004 so what was it about Schab that was obvious that he was better than Vick?

It was obvious who was the better QB at the time too. But Face of the Team/NFL was more important. Jersey sales you know.

I am sure it would be real interesting to hear the full story from Reeves, but he's too old school to blab much, I think.

Reeves was gone and Jim Maura was the HC in 2004. What was so obvious that Vick was better than Schab? Vick had won a couple of playoff games by that time and the Falcons won the NFC South and went to the NFC Championship game that year (2004) and went to his second Pro-Bowl.

I think Vick is a tool but I don't think anything was "obvious". Just two years earlier, Vick had demolished GB and Brett Favre at Lambeau Field for the first playoff loss there. No one gave them a chance that game which they completely dominated. I hated his style of QB play but the guy won.

All I'm saying is that if we'd have drafted a QB first overall and he went to two Pro-Bowls, beat a heavily favored Pack at Lambeau Field for their first playoff loss there, and took us the NFC Championship game, all in a span of 3 years, I don't think we'd want him gone a year later. Couple this with the fact that the year he was injured, the Falcons went 2 and 10 without him and 3 and 1 when he came back later that year.

We'd be ready to hang someone if the Cowboys made that move.......

 

[MonsterD]

They were coming off an 11 and 5 season in 2004 and won the NFC South. Schab was drafted in 2004 so what was it about Schab that was obvious that he was better than Vick?



Reeves was gone and Jim Maura was the HC in 2004. What was so obvious that Vick was better than Schab? Vick had won a couple of playoff games by that time and the Falcons won the NFC South and went to the NFC Championship game that year (2004) and went to his second Pro-Bowl.

I think Vick is a tool but I don't think anything was "obvious".

My eyes told me, I forgot when Shaub played but I remember seeing him play and thinking, wow this guy can actually throw. The time they won all those games, they had a running tandem with Vick included, that one sided type of offense can easily be stopped in the NFL.

You could make the case that because Tebow won all those games with the Broncos and won a playoff game that he should be a starter too, but only a fool would say stupid things like that.

 

[Dodger12]

My eyes told me, I forgot when Shaub played but I remember seeing him play and thinking, wow this guy can actually throw. The time they won all those games, they had a running tandem with Vick included, that one sided type of offense can easily be stopped in the NFL.

You could make the case that because Tebow won all those games with the Broncos and won a playoff game that he should be a starter too, but only a fool would say stupid things like that.

You forgot when Schab played because he didn't, except in the pre-season for the most part. The one game he started the score was something like 6 to 5 or something like that.

And where are all those games that Tebow won that you're referring to? He was 9 and 7 including the post season.

 

[visionary]

There are owners who are more interested in the bottom line over winning a super bowl. It's hard to believe but it's true. I see it every day with the Cowboys.

FIFY

 

[MonsterD]

You forgot when Schab played because he didn't, except in the pre-season for the most part. The one game he started the score was something like 6 to 5 or something like that.

And where are all those games that Tebow won that you're referring to? He was 9 and 7 including the post season.

What was Vick's overall record with the Falcons?

 

[arglebargle]

They were coming off an 11 and 5 season in 2004 and won the NFC South. Schab was drafted in 2004 so what was it about Schab that was obvious that he was better than Vick?



Reeves was gone and Jim Maura was the HC in 2004. What was so obvious that Vick was better than Schab? Vick had won a couple of playoff games by that time and the Falcons won the NFC South and went to the NFC Championship game that year (2004) and went to his second Pro-Bowl.

I think Vick is a tool but I don't think anything was "obvious". Just two years earlier, Vick had demolished GB and Brett Favre at Lambeau Field for the first playoff loss there. No one gave them a chance that game which they completely dominated. I hated his style of QB play but the guy won.

All I'm saying is that if we'd have drafted a QB first overall and he went to two Pro-Bowls, beat a heavily favored Pack at Lambeau Field for their first playoff loss there, and took us the NFC Championship game, all in a span of 3 years, I don't think we'd want him gone a year later. Couple this with the fact that the year he was injured, the Falcons went 2 and 10 without him and 3 and 1 when he came back later that year.

We'd be ready to hang someone if the Cowboys made that move.......

I watched a number of Atlanta preseason games in that period, due to being in Georgia a number of times then. Schaub appeared the better QB, if not the better athlete.

Reeves, with this 'Superstar' QB in tow for his second year, was happy to be relieved from his head coaching duties. I also recall an Atlanta NFL beat reporter talking about how Reeves had to structure his off season workouts to allow no longer than two weeks between them, because Vick would forget everything he'd learned otherwise. I am pretty sure the Reeves was real unhappy with the QB situation, but like I said, he's not one to blab much.

Note too that Vick's number one status in that draft was controversial, and that San Diego decided he wasn't worth the risk, cutting a trade deal to get someone else to take the bullet. Once he was taken, and became NFL poster boy, there was a lot of external pressure to keep him front and center. Including the money aspect of it all.

Vick was a total loose cannon. You couldn't put in any game plan that didn't fit his limited QB understanding. I actually think it is a nod to Reid's skill as a coach that he got Vick to play as well as he has.

 

[Dodger12]

What was Vick's overall record with the Falcons?

Better than Schab's but your point was that Schab should have started over Vick after 2005, a year he made the Pro-Bowl, and that it should have been obvious at the time. As a matter of fact, he made the Pro-Bowl in 3 of his first 5 seasons and he only started 2 games as a rookie at the end of the season. His first full year as a starter, he made the Pro-Bowl.

I'm not saying the Pro-Bowl is the end all measuring stick for a QB but it's a good start. Couple that with multiple playoff wins, one at undefeated Lambeau, and an NFC Championship game appearance and it's fairly clear how silly your comment was.

Whoever kept starting Vick should be barred or blacklisted from the NFL forever.

This statement is pure hyperbole. I'm not defending Vick. He's a turd. But his career was derailed not because of he did on the field, but he did off it. If Vick was with Dallas and he had the same "success" up to that point in his career, we never would have started a 2nd year, 3rd round QB. That's like saying we should have started McGee after after going 8 and 8 in 2011 or 1 and 5 as a starter in 2010. That's BS, with all due respect.

 

[Dodger12]

I watched a number of Atlanta preseason games in that period, due to being in Georgia a number of times then. Schaub appeared the better QB, if not the better athlete.

Reeves, with this 'Superstar' QB in tow for his second year, was happy to be relieved from his head coaching duties. I also recall an Atlanta NFL beat reporter talking about how Reeves had to structure his off season workouts to allow no longer than two weeks between them, because Vick would forget everything he'd learned otherwise. I am pretty sure the Reeves was real unhappy with the QB situation, but like I said, he's not one to blab much.

Note too that Vick's number one status in that draft was controversial, and that San Diego decided he wasn't worth the risk, cutting a trade deal to get someone else to take the bullet. Once he was taken, and became NFL poster boy, there was a lot of external pressure to keep him front and center. Including the money aspect of it all.

Vick was a total loose cannon. You couldn't put in any game plan that didn't fit his limited QB understanding. I actually think it is a nod to Reid's skill as a coach that he got Vick to play as well as he has.

I don't disagree with any of this. Vick's a tool bag and I hated his style of football. It was a bad pick and too risky for the #1 overall pick, but it was made. At the end of the day, a franchise isn't going to give up on that QB for Matt Schab at that point in his career, no matter how good he looked in the pre-season. We can go and name a ton of players on the Cowboys who were pre-season warriors (Billy Davis, Randal Williams, Keith Davis, etc.) that never panned out. Even Dez Bryant shows up in the pre-season but can't put it together during the regular season yet he doesn't get benched, let alone traded, at this point in his career. The Falcons were married to Vick at that point and he had enough success that they were't going to get rid of him.

 

[MonsterD]

Better than Schab's but your point was that Schab should have started over Vick after 2005, a year he made the Pro-Bowl, and that it should have been obvious at the time. As a matter of fact, he made the Pro-Bowl in 3 of his first 5 seasons and he only started 2 games as a rookie at the end of the season. His first full year as a starter, he made the Pro-Bowl.

I'm not saying the Pro-Bowl is the end all measuring stick for a QB but it's a good start. Couple that with multiple playoff wins, one at undefeated Lambeau, and an NFC Championship game appearance and it's fairly clear how silly your comment was.

You have to be kidding, they won in spite of Vick, they had RBs like Duckett and Dunn and then Vick ran. I am not disputing that Vick was a guy who could get a first down running, the guy could barely throw a TD in each game, it is obvious he was not a good QB. The stupidity is that anyone could tell at that time pro-bowls or whatever that if someone could throw with that running game they would be far better than even the 11-5 season.

It isn't just how a team does well it is how they could be better, and anyone at the time knew a QB that could throw was a far better alternative.

 

[MonsterD]

I also recall an Atlanta NFL beat reporter talking about how Reeves had to structure his off season workouts to allow no longer than two weeks between them, because Vick would forget everything he'd learned otherwise. .

Not just that but Vick more recently admitted that when he was with the falcons that they halved the field in the playbook ala Quincy Carter style so he could ignore one half and concentrate on the other.

 

[Dodger12]

You have to be kidding, they won in spite of Vick, they had RBs like Duckett and Dunn and then Vick ran. I am not disputing that Vick was a guy who could get a first down running, the guy could barely throw a TD in each game, it is obvious he was not a good QB. The stupidity is that anyone could tell at that time pro-bowls or whatever that if someone could throw with that running game they would be far better than even the 11-5 season.

It isn't just how a team does well it is how they could be better, and anyone at the time knew a QB that could throw was a far better alternative.

Let me ask you a question. If the Cowboys had a QB that they picked #1 overall, won multiple playoffs games in his first three years starting, took the team to the NFC Championship game, was selected to multiple Pro-Bowls and went 2 and 10 when he got hurt and had to bring in back-ups, would you bench him?

 

[arglebargle]

I don't disagree with any of this. Vick's a tool bag and I hated his style of football. It was a bad pick and too risky for the #1 overall pick, but it was made. At the end of the day, a franchise isn't going to give up on that QB for Matt Schab at that point in his career, no matter how good he looked in the pre-season. We can go and name a ton of players on the Cowboys who were pre-season warriors (Billy Davis, Randal Williams, Keith Davis, etc.) that never panned out. Even Dez Bryant shows up in the pre-season but can't put it together during the regular season yet he doesn't get benched, let alone traded, at this point in his career. The Falcons were married to Vick at that point and he had enough success that they were't going to get rid of him.

Okay, yeah, in the metagame, the Falcons were stuck with Vick, at least for a while. I do hold it against the owner, who had to know that Vick was a dangerous loose cannon, for the resigning and 'unswerving support'.

Thing is, Vick became a coach killer, because of his limited repertoire and erratic field competance. You had to pare down everything you planned, because he couldn't properly execute it. You hoped he made enough of those electric plays to win. But you certainly couldn't game plan around them.

Some preseason players do show up, eventually. The interesting bit is that some of them only do so due to injury substitution, not due to coaching insight. Miles Austin is the best example for the Cowboys, I think.