Read Option

[CowboyChris]

the thread that wont die.

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

I should add this

Bud Foster at Virginia Tech quickly found a way to "beat" the Rich Rod spread being run at WVU.

WVU had success against VT in 2003, but then struggled against the VT D in 2004 and 2005 (the last times the team played)

Part of it was talent, the VT defense got much better at the LB spots in 2004 and 2005. And that is the key to me, having superior linebacker play.

In the end superior athletes will win out, which is why GT and its triple option always struggles against UGA and other SEC teams, the caliber of athletes are better.

In the NFL you do NOT have that type of discrepancy in talent, and if you do it is rare. A team like the 49ers with its front 7 might be it right now, Justin Smith can dominate the LOS.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Not true

Rich Rodriguez at Clemson was the primary inventor of the 21st century "read option" offense which he then took to WVU and had success with Pat White.

http://smartfootball.com/run-game/the-zone-read-gun-triple-option-and-the-quadruple-option

Chris Ault at Neveda invented the "pistol" formation which started in 2005

http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2012/12/27/3792740/pistol-offense-nfl-Commanders-rg3

OMG, really?


Nothing in football is new. Nothing. You can rename it or call it something else or do whatever you want but I guarantee you, it's not new.

The only thing new in football is the improvement in the actual athlete or the design of the equipment.

Who invented the Shotgun?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

the thread that wont die.

Don't worry Chris, once these QBs start dropping like flies, this thread, along with that offense will die plenty fast.

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

OMG, really?


Nothing in football is new. Nothing. You can rename it or call it something else or do whatever you want but I guarantee you, it's not new.

The only thing new in football is the improvement in the actual athlete or the design of the equipment.

Who invented the Shotgun?

The shotgun was used first by the Cowboys in the 70s

"Its a gimmick!" they said

"Defenses will figure it out, you are always passing!" they claimed

The shotgun has stuck around since then. As will the read option.

Now the elements of the 21st century read option (notice my designation of 21st century) is based on the old school veer offenses from before the 80s, with the modern touch of the inflection point being behind the LOS, as opposed to running along the LOS like tradition option offenses do.

Rich Rod, Urban Meyer, Chris Kelly, Paul Johnson are the main practitioners of the 21st century read option.

Chris Ault added the "pistol" in 2005.

The Commanders essentially married the pistol, to the ZBS that Shanahan had run for 20 years, along with the read option elements from Baylor.

I look forward to what will be next.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Yeah, I'm with ABQ on this. You can dress it up and make little changes, but there's not really anything new under the sun. The wildcat is the single wing. The spread is the veer run from the shotgun. And so on.

The real difference is that passing has become so much more prevalent (a lot due to rules changes) that kids are learning to pass and catch much better at a younger age. In the past these wishbone or veer option QBs who couldn't throw at all now learn great mechanics when they're 10 years old. So now it's not just a running option offense, but one with a passing threat as well.

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

From the smart football article

There was, however, one more argument against these ideas ever taking hold in the NFL; Griffin was injured and didn’t finish the Baltimore game referenced above (though his injury came on a scramble on a pass play, not a zone read). Critics argue that these attacks create an increased risk of injury to quarterbacks. That is a real concern, and if anything can short circuit these changes to the NFL game, it is this.

I don’t have a firm rebuttal, and to my knowledge there have been no comprehensive studies done at any level of football that measures the risk to quarterbacks in the concepts, so we’re left with anecdotes to judge by. Yet even if it is true – no, especially if it is true – the issue is not really about these spread concepts at all. All quarterbacks – and all NFL players, really – are constantly at risk of gruesome injury. Pocket passers like Carson Palmer, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have missed entire seasons because of injuries sustained while standing in the pocket, and quarterbacks are constantly hit while or just after releasing the ball, a far more vulnerable position than being hit while sliding following a 5-yard gain behind a lead blocker. If the argument is that the scheme is too dangerous to risk injury to Robert Griffin III, then the real argument isn’t to abolish these offenses, it’s to abolish football. That’s another discussion, but if that’s the actual concern then we have much bigger problems than the Pistol Zone Bluff.

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

Yeah, I'm with ABQ on this. You can dress it up and make little changes, but there's not really anything new under the sun. The wildcat is the single wing. The spread is the veer run from the shotgun. And so on.

The real difference is that passing has become so much more prevalent (a lot due to rules changes) that kids are learning to pass and catch much better at a younger age. In the past these wishbone or veer option QBs who couldn't throw at all now learn great mechanics when they're 10 years old. So now it's not just a running option offense, but one with a passing threat as well.

Agree,which is what makes this so dangerous.

RG3 wouldn't be nearly as effective if he couldn't do what he did on Thanksgiving and down in New Orleans.

Without the passing component this offense wouldn't work.

 

[CowboyChris]

Don't worry Chris, once these QBs start dropping like flies, this thread, along with that offense will die plenty fast.

its really these Skin fans who keep it going, lord knows if they didnt have a read option QB, they too would think its a gimmick that will soon die.

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

its really these Skin fans who keep it going, lord knows if they didnt have a read option QB, they too would think its a gimmick that will soon die.

I have read smart football for years. I became enamored with the concepts seeing Cam run it last year. I actually fly to Oregon games to see the Chip Kelly offense then watch my own college play (Virginia Tech)

Seeing it expand this year has been exciting. I am looking forward to whats next.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The shotgun was used first by the Cowboys in the 70s

"Its a gimmick!" they said

"Defenses will figure it out, you are always passing!" they claimed

The shotgun has stuck around since then. As will the read option.

Now the elements of the 21st century read option (notice my designation of 21st century) is based on the old school veer offenses from before the 80s, with the modern touch of the inflection point being behind the LOS, as opposed to running along the LOS like tradition option offenses do.

Rich Rod, Urban Meyer, Chris Kelly, Paul Johnson are the main practitioners of the 21st century read option.

Chris Ault added the "pistol" in 2005.

The Commanders essentially married the pistol, to the ZBS that Shanahan had run for 20 years, along with the read option elements from Baylor.

I look forward to what will be next.

And what was Roger Staubach when he first came out of the Navy? Was he considered a traditional drop back passer or was he running QB?

And Chris Ault was not the inventor of this offense, nor was Rodriguez, nor was Urban Meyer or Chris Kelly or Paul Johnson. The run and shoot was around long before the Pistol, which was the same type of principle and there was also the Red Gun which was basically the same thing but used more zone flood principles and before that. The Zone Read, the Oklahoma Offense, which is basically a Split T which came from a Don Faurat.

This can go back a long way. You can even make a case that the principles of this offense came from Paul Brown and his old Ohio Offense, which would be hard to argue against.

It's not new. It's just recycled.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

its really these Skin fans who keep it going, lord knows if they didnt have a read option QB, they too would think its a gimmick that will soon die.

If the game did not protect the QB so much, this offense would never be run in the NFL. RG3 is a great QB but I do not believe he will last long in the NFL if they continue to run this offense.

 

[DFWJC]

I have read smart football for years. I became enamored with the concepts seeing Cam run it last year. I actually fly to Oregon games to see the Chip Kelly offense then watch my own college play (Virginia Tech)

Seeing it expand this year has been exciting. I am looking forward to whats next.

hey Hokie

Just some uselss trivia, but my parents retired in Fancy Gap, Va and they know Beamer. They say he's a good guy.

 

[Plankton]

The shotgun was used first by the Cowboys in the 70s

Actually, it was created by Red Hickey with the 49ers in the 1950s.

Hickey came to the Cowboys as an assistant in the 1970s, and he and Landry implemented it in the 1975 season.

 

[dwmyers]

The shotgun was used first by the Cowboys in the 70s

Red Hickey, 49ers, late 1950s, is generally credited with the shotgun formation in the pros. Before that TCU meistro Leo "Dutch" Meyer used the double wing formation and was known for it. Double wings are ancient.

From Dana Bible's book on football, copyrighted 1947, I have this screen shot..

Which of course completely misses the point. I don't think ABQCOWBOY has the skill to distinguish between a QB draw out of a shotgun formation and a zone read play, when he has no video to refer to, and is relying on 12 year old memories.

It's almost 100% certain the zone read was not part of Virgina Tech's nor the Atlanta Falcons offense. But ABQCOWBOY has Vick running the spread option in college and in the pros.

Around 2000-2001, who was paying attention to it? Urban Meyer, Rich Rodriguez, Scott Lineham? That's about it.

So the first notable use of spread option concepts would have been with Tommy Bowden, who had Rich as his offensive coordinator at Tulane and Clemson. And Rich really didn't have a breakout season as a HC until 2002.

Urban Meyer wasn't a head coach until 2001, and really didn't attract too much attention until he became head coach at Utah (2003-2004) and started winning there.

Michael Vick was drafted in 2001. Again, I ask, where did he learn the modern spread offense?

 

[NIBGoldenchild]

No. I understand the design of the read option but, you can not account for everything the defense will do. Things break down and your QB is going to get hit. It's the NFL. If your QB gets hit, he's going to get hurt. I mean, that's really what it comes down to.

Your QB will get hit whether he remains in the pocket or not, despite the scheme being used. It's the nature of the game. That doesn't mean that employing the read option means he'll get hit more. Luck took more hits than RG3 did last season, and Luck is a pocket passer. Romo has been injured from hits in the pocket. Griffin didn't take any hard hits last season on any read option play where he ran....I did see him get planted while throwing a pass from the Pistol.

If your premise is that many of these athletic QBs can't handle the grind of the NFL game period. I think you may have a point, but it has nothing to do with the read option. That is a misconception people keep repeating because someone else said it and it sounds right.

I watched a Packers game this season in which Rodgers scrambled from the pocket and slide right before a defender nearly took his head off. He only gained six yards, but the only difference between that play and the play Griffin injured his LCL on is Rodgers slide right before a defender dove at him and Griffin tried to get more yards. Both of them were attempting to pass from the pocket, both of them had no one open and collapsing protection, both of them scrambled to avoid the sack except one made an unsafe decision when the defense closed in. That isn't a scheme issue, it's a player issue.

 

[dwmyers]

The Zone Read, the Oklahoma Offense, which is basically a Split T which came from a Don Faurat.

F-A-U-R-O-T. Faurot. You can't even get his name right.

And no, the split T option (don't block a player on the side of the run) is not the same thing as the zone read (in the original form, don't block a DE away from the run). Different formation, different unblocked defender, different blocking techniques (man to man blocking in the 1940s, while modern zone reads use zone blocking, Alex Gibbs style).

Chris Brown says it better than I do, so I'll quote him:

The first read of a “zone-read,” it will be recalled is by the quarterback: he reads the backside defensive end, who typically goes unblocked in a zone-rushing scheme to free up blockers for double-teams on the frontside. If the defensive end sits where he is or rushes upfield, the quarterback simple hands the ball off to the runner. But if he chases the runningback, the quarterback pulls the ball. On the base zone-read, the quarterback just looks for any crease to the backside.

D-

 

[Fletch]

Johnny Manziel Is gonna dominate in the NFL.

I think so. The kid is accurate as all get out too. That goes a long way. He will be special. Give up our draft for the next two years when he comes out after next season.

Cmon Jerry, pull a Joey Galloway-draft for next offseason.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Your QB will get hit whether he remains in the pocket or not, despite the scheme being used. It's the nature of the game. That doesn't mean that employing the read option means he'll get hit more. Luck took more hits than RG3 did last season, and Luck is a pocket passer. Romo has been injured from hits in the pocket. Griffin didn't take any hard hits last season on any read option play where he ran....I did see him get planted while throwing a pass from the Pistol.

If your premise is that many of these athletic QBs can't handle the grind of the NFL game period. I think you may have a point, but it has nothing to do with the read option. That is a misconception people keep repeating because someone else said it and it sounds right.

I watched a Packers game this season in which Rodgers scrambled from the pocket and slide right before a defender nearly took his head off. He only gained six yards, but the only difference between that play and the play Griffin injured his LCL on is Rodgers slide right before a defender dove at him and Griffin tried to get more yards. Both of them were attempting to pass from the pocket, both of them had no one open and collapsing protection, both of them scrambled to avoid the sack except one made an unsafe decision when the defense closed in. That isn't a scheme issue, it's a player issue.

There is no question, QBs are going to take hits regardless of what offense they play in. However, QBs are very protected while in the pocket. It's much easier for QBs to cover up, get rid of the ball or simply protect themselves while in the pocket. If you break the pocket and specifically if you run past the LOS, then it's a different ball game and you are going to see guys take shots on your QB. Obviously the bigger you are, the better you will be able to absorb those hits but it really doesn't matter how big you are, eventually you are going to get hit. It makes no sense to allow your QB to increase the chances of that eventuality.

I am not certain which play RG3 was injured on. As I understand it, that is a bit of a question mark. However, I think you can look at a guy like Vick and see that the game will catch up to you in that type of offense.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

F-A-U-R-O-T. Faurot. You can't even get his name right.

Really? Your going to drag the conversation down to this? Tell me you even had a clue who he was prior to that post. It's fine, I spelled his name wrong. Obviously that invalidates whatever I've posted. Good one.

And no, the split T option (don't block a player on the side of the run) is not the same thing as the zone read (in the original form, don't block a DE away from the run). Different formation, different unblocked defender, different blocking techniques (man to man blocking in the 1940s, while modern zone reads use zone blocking, Alex Gibbs style).

I am certain that I explained the fact that these were all variations of the same basic principles. Are you going to turn that around and say that if you line up in a 43 and run a twist with the DE and DT, as opposed to just crashing the DT that it's not really a 43 because, well, the DLs did something a little different there and so no, it can't be?

The Split T, did it widen stances in order to try and spread the defense out?

Is this not what the Spread Does today?

By leaving the DE unblocked and thus forcing him to make a decision, is that not the same principle that the Zone Read is based on?

Come on. The principles are shared and the idea is the same. You want to pick it apart because there are subtle differences, OK. Suit yourself but at the end of the day, they are still trying to take advantage of the same things. It's not new.

Chris Brown says it better than I do, so I'll quote him:

Would have been a lot easier if you would have simply said that the spread is an evolution of the Run and Shoot (most credit to Ellison and Mouse Davis), which is what I believe I tried to explain earlier. However, if it makes you feel better, go ahead.