Romo / Quinn Debate

[TwoDeep3]

I have rewatched every game from last season now. And while the defense did erode after the injury to Ellis, a factor in that erosion was the field position - in some cases - handed to them by turnovers created by Romo.

That is not to say I think Romo wasn't the better choice for now, and possibly later.

But to be truthful, some of the failure rests at the feet - or arm - of TR.

The real issues for me are simple. Maintain status quo in regard to the QB siutation, and retool the offensive skill positions with top picks.

If TR fails, you have the ammo to move around and select a QB in 2008. If he succeeds, then you have other options.

If Julius is nothing more than what we have seen, you can position yourself for a premier running back.

If Julius turns a corner, and suddenly becomes a top back in the league, you have options at WR.

At this point you can invest in replacements for both T.O. and Glenn in the first round, and have all the skill positions set for years. If Julius shows up.

My personal opinion is this. Cleveland will start Quinn early, and their season will tank. They have improved their offensive line, and do have two pass catchers in Kellen Winslow Jr. - Tha Soljah - and Braylon Edwards. But the rest of the offense, and a horrid defense, says this is a 4 win team.

That is top 5 draft pick. And that could very well be McFadden. Because I do not believe anything Julius Jones says about what Parcells did to his running.

The second pick could be a receiver.

Or a cornerback.

But in the long run, Quinn may win, but he is also in the Brown's organization. The AFC equivolent of the Lions.

A better offensive line that allows Romo time to move around will do more for this team this next year than any rookie QB, including Montana. For this year. And a few years to come.

There is no debate - nor a-r-g-u-m-e-n-t.

 

[theogt]

I have rewatched every game from last season now. And while the defense did erode after the injury to Ellis, a factor in that erosion was the field position - in some cases - handed to them by turnovers created by Romo.

That is not to say I think Romo wasn't the better choice for now, and possibly later.

But to be truthful, some of the failure rests at the feet - or arm - of TR.

Other than the Eagles and the 1st Giants game, I can't think of a Romo turnover that led to points given up that would really place blame on him rather than the defense.

One of the turnovers in the Lions game led to some points, but that was after the defense allowed the Lions to drive 90+ yards to score.

That's just from memory, though, so I could be wrong. What specific examples are you thinking of?

 

[TwoDeep3]

Dallas vs. Atlanta -

3-2-DAL44 (12:05) T.Romo pass intended for T.Glenn INTERCEPTED by M.Boley (R.Coleman) at ATL 48. M.Boley to DAL 12 for 40 yards (M.Barber).
Atlanta Falcons at 11:53

1-10-DAL12 (11:53) (Shotgun) M.Vick right end pushed ob at DAL 1 for 11 yards (P.Watkins).
1-1-DAL1 (11:19) M.Vick pass short left to J.Griffith for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN. Penalty on DAL-D.Ware, Defensive Holding, declined.
M.Andersen extra point is GOOD, Center-B.Stutz, Holder-M.Schaub.
DAL 14 ATL 7, Plays: 2 Yards: 12 Possession: 0:42.

Dallas vs. New Orleans

2-10-DAL27 (14:39) T.Romo pass deep right intended for T.Glenn INTERCEPTED by O.Stoutmire at DAL 49. O.Stoutmire ran ob at DAL 39 for 10 yards.

1-10-DAL39 (14:23) D.Brees pass short left to D.McAllister to DAL 36 for 3 yards (B.James) [M.Spears]. Pass complete sideline.
2-7-DAL36 (13:46) D.Brees pass incomplete short left to B.Miller. Pass incomplete at the Dallas 26; Williams closest defender.
3-12-DAL36 (13:41) D.Brees pass short right to M.Colston to DAL 24 for 12 yards (T.Newman).
1-10-DAL24 (12:58) D.Brees pass short right to J.Owens to DAL 20 for 4 yards (A.Ayodele). Pass complete right flat.
2-6-DAL20 (12:23) D.McAllister up the middle to DAL 15 for 5 yards (B.Carpenter).
3-1-DAL15 (11:39) D.McAllister right end to DAL 11 for 4 yards (T.Newman).
1-10-DAL11 (11:03) D.Brees pass short middle to T.Copper to DAL 3 for 8 yards (R.Williams).
2-2-DAL3 (10:24) D.Brees pass short left to M.Karney for 3 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
J.Carney extra point is GOOD, Center-K.Houser, Holder-J.Martin.
NO 14 DAL 7, Plays: 8 Yards: 39 Possession: 4:04.

Here are two examples. I didn't say there were many or I would have a differing opinion of Romo than the one you see in my above post.

Yet giving the ball away in our territory, no matter where on our side of the field, is offering the opponent's offense a short field. It causes difficulties for the defense.

Romo delivered the ball to the other team, and then our defense was taxed to the point of breaking.

I am not saying the defense was not at fault. To the contrary, I am saying they have a major responsibility in how we fared last year last in the season.

But Romo exacerbated the issue with his tossing ill-timed turnovers in a few games.

Again, I am not bashing Romo. Just pointing out an area where he needs work. Im also think he can correct this with experience.

 

[theogt]

Dallas vs. Atlanta -

3-2-DAL44 (12:05) T.Romo pass intended for T.Glenn INTERCEPTED by M.Boley (R.Coleman) at ATL 48. M.Boley to DAL 12 for 40 yards (M.Barber).

The ball was tipped by a DL jumping a foot into the air with his hand fully extended. I guess you could blame Tony for that. The lineman got his hand just in the right place at the right time. It's not quite the "errant throw" I thought we were referring to.

Dallas vs. New Orleans

2-10-DAL27 (14:39) T.Romo pass deep right intended for T.Glenn INTERCEPTED by O.Stoutmire at DAL 49. O.Stoutmire ran ob at DAL 39 for 10 yards.

See, now I had this game completely wiped from memory, why would you want to go and bring it up? But yeah, that was a bad play by Tony. Still, the defense was horrible in that game, regardless. They'd just given up a 90 yard, 7:00 minute TD drive by New Orleans. Tony can get blame for that 7 points, but that would probably reduce the defense's average PPG given up from 30+ to about 28. Not exactly a worthwhile excuse.

 

[SultanOfSix]

Wait a second...

A long pass down the sideline where it seemed like the defense couldn't stop a HS team, and a game in which we won, are examples of Tony causing problems for the D?

Those are some pretty poor examples.

 

[TwoDeep3]

Tony threw it, the other team intercepted it.

 

[theogt]

Tony threw it, the other team intercepted it.

And I suppose if he threw it directly at a defender and it bounced off the defender to our receiver who ran for a TD, he should get credit for that? I don't think he shoud, but hey, he threw and we scored a TD.

 

[zeromaster]

<snip>
but if not for Parcells, Romo would never have seen the field.

You are killing some of your argument as well, for all the reasonable statements you make.

So any other coach would have kept Bledsoe in for all 16 games, eh?

For all your logic, this one strikes me as puzzling. Bledsoe was showing increasing hesitancy in his game as last season wore on, but you leave us with the impression that it was still good enough by your standards.

Perhaps you'd like to explain that logic a bit further.

Yes it's quoted alone, but a statement like that deserves it.

 

[burmafrd]

Any pass deflected at the line of scrimmage and Picked should not be put on the QB. Just like any pass that hits the hands of a WR, bouncs and is picked should not be put on the QB. BUT on the other hand many times a WR will make a great catch of a bad pass and the credit goes to the QB. But in the end the breaks tend to even out. I always though that football needs an official scorer just like baseball; to call the plays as an error or a good play or a bad play.

 

[TwoDeep3]

Well then, do we discount all the times he threw it, and it bounced off the defender and fell to the ground?

Those don't show up in stats, but they are of concern. Because he would have been closer to 50-50 in TD/INT if each of those had been caught. And he threw the ball directly to the defender.

Further, Jaws was doing a breakdown of QB's the other day before the draft. He was talking about release points, and the height of the QB. His point being that even if a guy is 6'4", if he delivers the pass sidearm, or takes an unusually long stride, it makes him smaller than his height. That goes into the thinking of scouts as they put together their reports on this position. Where the QB releases the ball, and how susceptable they are to having passes tipped or blocked.

This is now getting far afield, and is beginning to sound like I am bashing TR. But he is 6'2" and does sidearm the ball to a degree at times. So if his pass gets tipped by the DL, that rests on him finding an open passing lane and protecting the ball.

I am not suggesting changing his mechanics, or that I don't like him. But I am also not going to make excuses when he has a mental error, or believes in his skills to the point of undue risk.

And there are examples last season of this occurring with this player.

Again, I believe he can correct this. He needs to play within himself and not be so sandlot at times.

This is all conjecture. But I see a kid who was having fun, and then what was working suddenly wasn't to the same degree, and he tried too hard at times.

But in light of the original post, I would rather have Romo than Quinn.

 

[Wrangler87]

No debate, we have Romo who made the pro bowl in his first year as a starter why draft a QB in the first round, Quinn is more hype than Anything anyway...... GL to Quinn just no this year.......

No debate necessary. I agree. I think they will both have very good careers in the NFL due to their work ethic. Both of them show great leadership and are committed to football first.

Where we have the edge is, Romo has four years experience, one as a starter, and did make the Pro Bowl.

Quinn is starting from scratch, though it is a well educated scratch.

 

[90'sBoys]

I have rewatched every game from last season now. And while the defense did erode after the injury to Ellis, a factor in that erosion was the field position - in some cases - handed to them by turnovers created by Romo.

That is not to say I think Romo wasn't the better choice for now, and possibly later.

But to be truthful, some of the failure rests at the feet - or arm - of TR.

The real issues for me are simple. Maintain status quo in regard to the QB siutation, and retool the offensive skill positions with top picks.

If TR fails, you have the ammo to move around and select a QB in 2008. If he succeeds, then you have other options.

If Julius is nothing more than what we have seen, you can position yourself for a premier running back.

If Julius turns a corner, and suddenly becomes a top back in the league, you have options at WR.

At this point you can invest in replacements for both T.O. and Glenn in the first round, and have all the skill positions set for years. If Julius shows up.

My personal opinion is this. Cleveland will start Quinn early, and their season will tank. They have improved their offensive line, and do have two pass catchers in Kellen Winslow Jr. - Tha Soljah - and Braylon Edwards. But the rest of the offense, and a horrid defense, says this is a 4 win team.

That is top 5 draft pick. And that could very well be McFadden. Because I do not believe anything Julius Jones says about what Parcells did to his running.

The second pick could be a receiver.

Or a cornerback.

But in the long run, Quinn may win, but he is also in the Brown's organization. The AFC equivolent of the Lions.

A better offensive line that allows Romo time to move around will do more for this team this next year than any rookie QB, including Montana. For this year. And a few years to come.

There is no debate - nor a-r-g-u-m-e-n-t.

Exactly. Great Post. The point of my original post is that more than likely we are putting too much faith in a player like Romo...who has yet to really prove anything. We are doing the same with Quinn....who has yet to really prove anything. Neither are can't miss guys. Romo went undrafted, and 21 other teams passed on Quinn. Three of which could use a QB badly.

Once again, for those who want to be objective, the Pro Bowl selection this year means nothing. Has Vick ever made the Pro Bowl? You want him to run your team? How many years did Flozell, or Larry Allen get selected when they didn't deserve it? Romo had is share of good games, but 5 games does not a season make. As two deep points out..go back and look at the tapes. There are plenty of examples of Romo making bad decisions, not only turnovers but stalled drives, that caused momentum shifts for the other team. It was not all the defense's fault, like most of you want to believe. Remember that stats like passer ratings mean nothing unless you win some games of note. Romo might be very good or he might be average, we just don't know. Neither does Jerry and Co. This year will tell the tale. Regardless if they are in contract talks or not, if Jones wanted to get Tony signed and had 100&#37; faith that he was the guy, it would have been done before now.

 

[burmafrd]

90s boys, it really matters very little where you are picked except for the money. I guess you really forget that Dan Marino dropped to 23 before he was picked, Joe Montana the 3rd rd and TOM BRADY the 6th.

 

[theogt]

I'm not making excuses for Tony. The throw in the New Orleans game was a great example of your point about a turnover leading to a score. It likely wouldn't have changed the effect of that game and it certainly doesn't change the performance of the defense over the last 1/4 of the season.

As for the tipped ball, it wasn't a side-armed throw. I guess it's possible to make some strange argument that it was his fault, but I don't really see one. It just happens. Sometimes a defender makes a really good play or just gets lucky.

So the point of my post was that those two examples really didn't help your overarching point that Tony contributed in a meaningful amount to the collapse of the defense. If anything, I'd say the defense's collapse contributed much more to Tony's less-than-stellar numbers (and I say less-than-stellar because they were still pretty good).

And like burmafrd said, I'm of the opinion that normally, in a long enough span, those types of situations level out.

 

[theogt]

Exactly. Great Post. The point of my original post is that more than likely we are putting too much faith in a player like Romo...who has yet to really prove anything. We are doing the same with Quinn....who has yet to really prove anything. Neither are can't miss guys. Romo went undrafted, and 21 other teams passed on Quinn. Three of which could use a QB badly.

Once again, for those who want to be objective, the Pro Bowl selection this year means nothing. Has Vick ever made the Pro Bowl? You want him to run your team? How many years did Flozell, or Larry Allen get selected when they didn't deserve it? Romo had is share of good games, but 5 games does not a season make. As two deep points out..go back and look at the tapes. There are plenty of examples of Romo making bad decisions, not only turnovers but stalled drives, that caused momentum shifts for the other team. It was not all the defense's fault, like most of you want to believe. Remember that stats like passer ratings mean nothing unless you win some games of note. Romo might be very good or he might be average, we just don't know. Neither does Jerry and Co. This year will tell the tale. Regardless if they are in contract talks or not, if Jones wanted to get Tony signed and had 100&#37; faith that he was the guy, it would have been done before now.

What? How can you say that Romo hasn't proven anything? So far he's proven that he can be a winning, starting QB in the NFL. He's proven that he can put up a lot of points even when the defense isn't helping him out at all.

It seems that you're saying that Quinn and Romo are both unproven to the same extent. That's absurd. Quinn hasn't proven anything at all. When Quinn puts up more than an 80.0 QB rating in a season, you can start to talk. When he puts up a 95 QB rating, I may actually start to listen. Yes, Tony has made some bad decisions against NFL talent. If your point is that he's not perfect, well....uh....ok.

As far as the Pro Bowl stuff, yes you have a great point that going doesn't necessarily mean you deserve it. But you'd be hard pressed to argue Tony didn't deserve it.

 

[burmafrd]

There have been more then a few QBs that looked great for a season or so then disapeared (Mark Rypien). It CAN happen. As long as TR keeps to his work habits and does not get a big head he will be fine.

 

[theogt]

There have been more then a few QBs that looked great for a season or so then disapeared (Mark Rypien). It CAN happen. As long as TR keeps to his work habits and does not get a big head he will be fine.

Of course there are no guarantees, but we're talking about probabilities.

Which is more likely -- Tony Romo continuing to play as well or better than he did in '06 OR Brady Quinn playing as well or better than Tony did in '06?

 

[burmafrd]

certainly one could say that it is more likely that Romo will play better thenhe did late in the season- but you cannot be sure of anything. We can talk possibilies and probabilities all day long and it means nothing. Not untill the games are played will we know anything. Right now we are just working our fingers since its a long time till TC.

 

[90'sBoys]

Of course there are no guarantees, but we're talking about probabilities.

Which is more likely -- Tony Romo continuing to play as well or better than he did in '06 OR Brady Quinn playing as well or better than Tony did in '06?

No, I think most of you have already annointed Tony as THE quarterback of the future for the boys. That is a foregone conclusion to most people on this board, not a probability but a certainty. I don't remember there being this much hype with Brady after his first year and he took them to the Super Bowl. Hell, Romo hasn't even won a playoff game. And that was against Seattle a team we were superior to. He is what he is at this point. A legitimate NFL starter who has yet to prove anything otherwise. He is a middle of the road NFL QB right now. I would think that every other team out there would agree. Most on this board act as though he is in the same league as Peyton, Carson, or Brady.

I am not equating results with Romo and Quinn. I am equating the fact that both or being judged on their potential. Romo's potential based on the 5 games last year, and Quinn's potential as a high rated prospect. Neither of which you can justify as a franchise QB just yet.