Roy Williams vs 2009 WR Rookie Class

[Galian Beast]

From: Danny White

I think this is very telling... in terms of what we spent to get Roy Williams. First I think you need to realize we traded the 20th pick in the draft, and basically traded up with the 82nd pick in the draft (3rd round).


In 28 starts he's had for the Cowboys, RW has caught 95 passes for 1340 yards and 14 TDs.. Taking away the first year he played for Dallas ( 2008 ) in order to compare him to the receivers taking in the draft in which the Cowboys gave up a #1 draft pick for ( 2009 ), this is what you get:

Darrius Heyward-Bey: 17 starts, 23 receptions, 285 yards, 1 TD
Hakeem Nicks: 20 starts, 83 receptions, 1,207 yards, 12 TDs
Michael Crabtree: 17 starts, 72 receptions, 926 yards, 4 TDs
Roy Williams: 17 starts, 59 receptions, 902 yards, 12 TDs
Jeremy Maclin:19 starts, 81 receptions, 1,189 yards, 10 TDs
Percy Harvin: 20 starts, 80 receptions, 1,014 yards, 9 TDs
Kenny Britt: 22 starts, 58 receptions, 910 yards, 7 TDs
Mike Wallace: 21 starts, 51 receptions, 1,057 yards, 9 TDs
Mike Thomas: 20 starts, 77 receptions, 800 yards, 1 TD
Brian Hartline: 21 starts, 46 receptions, 683 yards, 4TDs
Louis Murphy: 22 starts, 53 receptions, 829 yards, 5 TDs
Austin Collie: 22 starts, 104 receptions, 1,179 yards, 13 TDs
Johnn Knox: 21 starts, 63 receptions, 919 yards, 5 TDs

Only 2 other receivers, pretty much, have caught as many TD passes as he has so far ( Hakeem Nicks and Austin Collie ) and RW had an average of less game than anybody else with the exception Heyward-Bey.
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I often hear a lot of people say that Roy had to perform in his first year for him to be worth the trade. But his performance now is based partly on his ability to have been in the system as long as he has. Its a total package, and right now that trade is really working out well for us.

While that trade seemed completely one sided at first and made us a joke, I no longer believe that applies. Roy Williams is certainly playing up to a high 1st round caliber.

Outplaying Heyward Bay and Crabtree and Maclin.

 

[UnoDallas]

Heyward Bay and Crabtree and Maclin

have these guys been in the league since 04 and has only one 1000 yard season ?

thinking they are a number one option ?

 

[Galian Beast]

Heyward Bay and Crabtree and Maclin

have these guys been in the league since 04 and has only one 1000 yard season ?

thinking they are a number one option ?

Thats regardless of the issue. We paid more, and because of that we got a veteran, who is producing in our system.

 

[UnoDallas]

and he is still UNDERACHIEVING

A Collie 2 yrs 503 yds
H Nicks 2 yrs 417 yds
J Maclin 2 yrs 415 yds
M Thomas 2 yr 346 yds
D Amendola 2 yr 322 yds

 

[theogt]

Uno mas to the ignore list.

 

[CanuckCowboysFan]

Nice thread bro... Hopefully will shutup all the haterzzzzzz

 

[Galian Beast]

and he is still UNDERACHIEVING

A Collie 2 yrs 503 yds
H Nicks 2 yrs 417 yds
J Maclin 2 yrs 415 yds
M Thomas 2 yr 346 yds
D Amendola 2 yr 322 yds

Why don't you try yards per game...

and also compare touchdowns and touchdowns per game...

 

[UnoDallas]

Why don't you try yards per game...

and also compare touchdowns and touchdowns per game...

what for RW's was never a good reciever never will be

thats JMO

 

[Galian Beast]

great argument...

 

[Big Blue Joe]

Roy Williams salary for 2010 is just a little less than $13 million. The Giants and Titans both picked WR's after where the Cowboys would have drafted, and they are paying Kenny Britt and Hakeem NIcks $395,000 and $400,000, respectively, in 2010. Personally, I'd go with the cheaper options.

 

[Galian Beast]

They are cheaper today, but they won't necessarily be cheaper 2-3 years from now.

 

[realtick]

From: Danny White

I think this is very telling... in terms of what we spent to get Roy Williams. First I think you need to realize we traded the 20th pick in the draft, and basically traded up with the 82nd pick in the draft (3rd round).


In 28 starts he's had for the Cowboys, RW has caught 95 passes for 1340 yards and 14 TDs.. Taking away the first year he played for Dallas ( 2008 ) in order to compare him to the receivers taking in the draft in which the Cowboys gave up a #1 draft pick for ( 2009 ), this is what you get:

Darrius Heyward-Bey: 17 starts, 23 receptions, 285 yards, 1 TD
Hakeem Nicks: 20 starts, 83 receptions, 1,207 yards, 12 TDs
Michael Crabtree: 17 starts, 72 receptions, 926 yards, 4 TDs
Roy Williams: 17 starts, 59 receptions, 902 yards, 12 TDs
Jeremy Maclin:19 starts, 81 receptions, 1,189 yards, 10 TDs
Percy Harvin: 20 starts, 80 receptions, 1,014 yards, 9 TDs
Kenny Britt: 22 starts, 58 receptions, 910 yards, 7 TDs
Mike Wallace: 21 starts, 51 receptions, 1,057 yards, 9 TDs
Mike Thomas: 20 starts, 77 receptions, 800 yards, 1 TD
Brian Hartline: 21 starts, 46 receptions, 683 yards, 4TDs
Louis Murphy: 22 starts, 53 receptions, 829 yards, 5 TDs
Austin Collie: 22 starts, 104 receptions, 1,179 yards, 13 TDs
Johnn Knox: 21 starts, 63 receptions, 919 yards, 5 TDs

Only 2 other receivers, pretty much, have caught as many TD passes as he has so far ( Hakeem Nicks and Austin Collie ) and RW had an average of less game than anybody else with the exception Heyward-Bey.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I often hear a lot of people say that Roy had to perform in his first year for him to be worth the trade. But his performance now is based partly on his ability to have been in the system as long as he has. Its a total package, and right now that trade is really working out well for us.

While that trade seemed completely one sided at first and made us a joke, I no longer believe that applies. Roy Williams is certainly playing up to a high 1st round caliber.

Outplaying Heyward Bay and Crabtree and Maclin.

This is a perfect example of how people will create mental diversions to try wiggle around reality.

Here's reality:

First, Roy was traded for 1st, 3rd and a 6th, and immediately signed to a five-year $45 million contract with more than $20 guaranteed.

That is not 20th pick of the 1st round type money.

Second, you glibly state we "traded up with the 82nd pick in the draft."

Um no, they didn't.

They traded a 1st, 3rd and 6th rounder for Roy Williams; no amount of mental gymnastics is going to make that bad deal go away.

Third, what is the purpose of striking away Roy's first season with Dallas as if it didn't exist to compare him to receivers in 2009?

Roy was traded for while he was in his sixth season in the NFL. This incessant desire to try to treat Roy (via comparing him to the '09 rookie class) as if he was a rookie would be hilarious if it wasn't so entirely deranged.

The Cowboys traded for him expecting him to contribute immediately.

In case you or anyone has forgotten, a big issue at the time was getting TO the ball, the idea was the team needed a legitimate threat opposite of TO to keep opposing teams honest.

Yes, the trade should be judged on the "total package" as you put it. Being such, his first two seasons in Dallas were complete disappointments, that cannot be swept under the rug. And looking at what he's done his first five games this season doesn't trump what he failed to do those seasons.

It's like leasing a $50K BMW for five years, but the first two years it barely ran for you and rarely served a functional purpose. Only during its third year did the mechanical kinks get worked out and just now gets you from A to B.

You wouldn't look back during the third year and say "money well spent," as if the first two years never happened.

That's delusional.

Fourth, it's a bit funny that you're getting all excited over Roy's production this season. It's amazing how folks are so easily pleased when the bar is set so low.

Why would I say that, here's why: Roy is effectively averaging 4 catches for 60 yards a game and a TD.

Now, I'll definitely take his scoring production, but do you realize you're getting all amped up over a guy who is getting paid as a top receiver but more or less is producing like a No. 2?

Let's look at some even more sobering numbers, in 30 games w/Dallas he's averaged the following: 2.6 catches and 36 yards per game

Let me repeat, 5 years for $45 million ($20+ million gauranteed) plus the price of a 1st, 3rd and 6th to acquire him.

Fifth, regardless of what Roy may accomplish this season, there is a great chance that he will be released after this season due to his bloated contract and the expected emergence of Dez Bryant. If so, do we really look back at the Roy Williams era and say "hey, that trade really worked out well for us" as you seem to suggest?

 

[CCBoy]

This is a perfect example of how people will create mental diversions to try wiggle around reality.

Here's reality:

First, Roy was traded for 1st, 3rd and a 6th, and immediately signed to a five-year $45 million contract with more than $20 guaranteed.

That is not 20th pick of the 1st round type money.

Second, you glibly state we "traded up with the 82nd pick in the draft."

Um no, they didn't.

They traded a 1st, 3rd and 6th rounder for Roy Williams; no amount of mental gymnastics is going to make that bad deal go away.

Third, what is the purpose of striking away Roy's first season with Dallas as if it didn't exist to compare him to receivers in 2009?

Roy was traded for while he was in his sixth season in the NFL. This incessant desire to try to treat Roy (via comparing him to the '09 rookie class) as if he was a rookie would be hilarious if it wasn't so entirely deranged.

The Cowboys traded for him expecting him to contribute immediately.

In case you or anyone has forgotten, a big issue at the time was getting TO the ball, the idea was the team needed a legitimate threat opposite of TO to keep opposing teams honest.

Yes, the trade should be judged on the "total package" as you put it. Being such, his first two seasons in Dallas were complete disappointments, that cannot be swept under the rug. And looking at what he's done his first five games this season doesn't trump what he failed to do those seasons.

It's like leasing a $50K BMW for five years, but the first two years it barely ran for you and rarely served a functional purpose. Only during its third year did the mechanical kinks get worked out and just now gets you from A to B.

You wouldn't look back during the third year and say "money well spent," as if the first two years never happened.

That's delusional.

Fourth, it's a bit funny that you're getting all excited over Roy's production this season. It's amazing how folks are so easily pleased when the bar is set so low.

Why would I say that, here's why: Roy is effectively averaging 4 catches for 60 yards a game and a TD.

Now, I'll definitely take his scoring production, but do you realize you're getting all amped up over a guy who is getting paid as a top receiver but more or less is producing like a No. 2?

Let's look at some even more sobering numbers, in 30 games w/Dallas he's averaged the following: 2.6 catches and 36 yards per game

Let me repeat, 5 years for $45 million ($20+ million gauranteed) plus the price of a 1st, 3rd and 6th to acquire him.

Fifth, regardless of what Roy may accomplish this season, there is a great chance that he will be released after this season due to his bloated contract and the expected emergence of Dez Bryant. If so, do we really look back at the Roy Williams era and say "hey, that trade really worked out well for us" as you seem to suggest?

First, there was a denouncing of the premise presented by Galian Beast concerning the productions of other receivers from the draft that picks for Roy Williams move to Dallas was paid with.

That has relevance as it involves the supposed loss in value lost through said picks.

Fact, current productions levels since that draft, don't surpass those of Roy Williams. This even discounting the slow reintroduction and changes necessary for Roy Williams to change scheme styles developed over a significant period of times in Detroit, and then Dallas. This even involves individual adjustments and core value changes as well. Wonder if a college coaching change affects abilities of players within that system to produce? Same principal with flip-flops amongst NFL teams.



Second point, 'no amount of mental gymnastics is going to make that bad deal go away.'

I wonder if arbitrary ups and downs in the German Mark value had anything to do with purchasing power of GI's over in Germany? Wonder what you could do with a single US dollar, when the German Mark was above 4, instead of a Euro Dollar close to equal. What about a pound to dollar comparison, with the same single monetary unit?

To further expand, what about investment comparisons during the Eisenhauer Presidency as compared to those now, under an Obama dollar?

More specificly, the 'money'/draft picks paid for Roy Williams, was similar to Monopoly Money then. To point, there were multiple picks almost through each round for that draft. No matter what currency evalautions, whether up or down in value, would have affected an inability for that number of picks, either high or low, to have made and stuck on the Dallas roster at that time.

No matter how many dollar equivalents one placed upon a roster position, only so many rosters spots were open. Now, if you claim 4/1 or any other 'market' rate, you still only had X number of slots to fill.

Even applying an extended look at this value application, how many more receivers could have been added to the combination of Miles Austin, Roy Williams, and Dez Bryant to fill a 3 receiver set, that is optimally effective in today's NFL?

Point, there are other ways to look at price indexes....and bring reasonable justifications back into the picture.

 

[birdwells1]

This is a perfect example of how people will create mental diversions to try wiggle around reality.

Here's reality:

First, Roy was traded for 1st, 3rd and a 6th, and immediately signed to a five-year $45 million contract with more than $20 guaranteed.

That is not 20th pick of the 1st round type money.

Second, you glibly state we "traded up with the 82nd pick in the draft."

Um no, they didn't.

They traded a 1st, 3rd and 6th rounder for Roy Williams; no amount of mental gymnastics is going to make that bad deal go away.

Third, what is the purpose of striking away Roy's first season with Dallas as if it didn't exist to compare him to receivers in 2009?

Roy was traded for while he was in his sixth season in the NFL. This incessant desire to try to treat Roy (via comparing him to the '09 rookie class) as if he was a rookie would be hilarious if it wasn't so entirely deranged.

The Cowboys traded for him expecting him to contribute immediately.

In case you or anyone has forgotten, a big issue at the time was getting TO the ball, the idea was the team needed a legitimate threat opposite of TO to keep opposing teams honest.

Yes, the trade should be judged on the "total package" as you put it. Being such, his first two seasons in Dallas were complete disappointments, that cannot be swept under the rug. And looking at what he's done his first five games this season doesn't trump what he failed to do those seasons.

It's like leasing a $50K BMW for five years, but the first two years it barely ran for you and rarely served a functional purpose. Only during its third year did the mechanical kinks get worked out and just now gets you from A to B.

You wouldn't look back during the third year and say "money well spent," as if the first two years never happened.

That's delusional.

Fourth, it's a bit funny that you're getting all excited over Roy's production this season. It's amazing how folks are so easily pleased when the bar is set so low.

Why would I say that, here's why: Roy is effectively averaging 4 catches for 60 yards a game and a TD.

Now, I'll definitely take his scoring production, but do you realize you're getting all amped up over a guy who is getting paid as a top receiver but more or less is producing like a No. 2?

Let's look at some even more sobering numbers, in 30 games w/Dallas he's averaged the following: 2.6 catches and 36 yards per game

Let me repeat, 5 years for $45 million ($20+ million gauranteed) plus the price of a 1st, 3rd and 6th to acquire him.

Fifth, regardless of what Roy may accomplish this season, there is a great chance that he will be released after this season due to his bloated contract and the expected emergence of Dez Bryant. If so, do we really look back at the Roy Williams era and say "hey, that trade really worked out well for us" as you seem to suggest?

GAME, SET, MATCH.

 

[Blast From The Past]

Nice thread bro... Hopefully will shutup all the haterzzzzzz

Naw, haterzzzzzz will still be haterzzzzzz:bang2:

 

[CCBoy]

Naw, haterzzzzzz will still be haterzzzzzz:bang2:

Only figures, there is much less personal investment and price to pay for integrity and fact finding.... LOL.:starspin

 

[Randy White]

This is a perfect example of how people will create mental diversions to try wiggle around reality.Here's reality:First, Roy was traded for 1st, 3rd and a 6th, and immediately signed to a five-year $45 million contract with more than $20 guaranteed.

Speaking of reality:

Darrius Heyward-Bey Signed a five-year, $39 million contract. The deal includes $23.5 million guaranteed


Michael Crabtree: Signed a six-year, $32 million contract. The deal includes $17 million guaranteed. Another $8 million is available through incentives. The contract can void to five years based on "unlikely to be earned" Pro Bowl and playing-time triggers. Per one clause in the contract, $15 million of Crabtree's available escalators is contingent on him participating in at least 90% of annual offseason workouts.

( The guy is going to get paid 15 millions more just for showing up to work )

That's before they caught 1 pass in the NFL.

That is not 20th pick of the 1st round type money.

No, it isn't, BUT the 20th pick of the draft, Brandon Pettigrew, signed for nearly HALF of what Roy Williams signed for: six-year, $14.6 million contract. The deal includes $9.369 million guaranteed..

Care to know how many TDs Pettigrew has scored in his 2 years ? A whopping THREE. This is his scouting report:

Brandon Pettigrew was the featured pass-catching tight end. The quarterback situation has allowed Pettigrew to out-produce Scheffler to this point, but the better talent usually wins out, and Scheffler is a superior athlete. With Matthew Stafford (shoulder) on the way back in Week 8, Scheffler should re-assume his role as the play-making tight end.

That's the " 20th pick of the draft " for ya...

regardless of what Roy may accomplish this season, there is a great chance that he will be released after this season due to his bloated contract

Roy Williams is going to make $5.1 million dollars in 2011 and $6.8 millions in 2012. That's about average salary for a starting veteran WR producing solid numbers. It's a bit below average producing the type of numbers that RW is producing.

Alex Barron is making $2.8 millions and he's on the roster.

 

[ThreeandOut]

What I take from these numbers is we could have traded up with the picks used for Roy to take Maclin or stayed put and taken Nicks, and gotten the same level of production as we are getting with Roy.

 

[Randy White]

What I take from these numbers is we could have traded up with the picks used for Roy to take Maclin or stayed put and taken Nicks, and gotten the same level of production as we are getting with Roy.

Maybe.. But the Cowboys weren't going to take that chance in 2008 when they were looking for a long term, experienced, replacement for Terrel Owens. That was the main reason for bringing RW.

Oh, and rest assured, if the Cowboys would have traded up, it wouldn't have been for Maclin, it would have been for Crabtree. Also, if by some chance they were able to pull off a move up for Crabtree using those picks which I doubt would have been enough but one never knows, ( I'm not quite 100% but I think they had taken Nicks off their board for off the field issues ) we would have passed on Dez Bryant this year. Our receiving core would have looked a little different today: Austin, Crabtree, and Crayton would be our top 3 with Ogletree and Hurd bringing up the rear.

That's not a bad group at all but not quite as good as the one we have right now: Austin, Bryant, and RW, with Ogletree and Hurd in the back.

 

[ThreeandOut]

Maybe.. But the Cowboys weren't going to take that chance in 2008 when they were looking for a long term, experienced, replacement for Terrel Owens. That was the main reason for bringing RW.

Oh, and rest assured, if the Cowboys would have traded up, it wouldn't have been for Maclin, it would have been for Crabtree. Also, if by some chance they were able to pull off a move up for Crabtree using those picks which I doubt would have been enough but one never knows, ( I'm not quite 100% but I think they had taken Nicks off their board for off the field issues ) we would have passed on Dez Bryant this year. Our receiving core would have looked a little different today: Austin, Crabtree, and Crayton would be our top 3 with Ogletree and Hurd bringing up the rear.

That's not a bad group at all but not quite as good as the one we have right now: Austin, Bryant, and RW, with Ogletree and Hurd in the back.

As I remember, Dallas had Maclin rated as a top 10 pick. He fell to 17, so this wouldn't have been a big jump to trade up and get him from the 20th pick (probably could have been done for what they traded for Roy). I don't think they would have been willing to give up the picks that would have been required to get Crabtree.