Run Defense: Possible Solution

[DasSchnitzel]

I've seen many suggestions on improving the run defense such as the DL playing 2-gap.

There are many reasons that probably would not work.

A better change might be to use a 3-4 look on 1st downs.

• A 3-4 look can be done just by moving an OLB to the outside of DLaw.
• DLaw would move towards the inside, to head up on the RT.
• Since LVE is out injured, I'll reference Lee as his replacement.
• 
  
• For the following explanation to make sense, "pretend" that the normal 4-3 alignment is:
  • Jaylon: WLB
  • Lee: MLB
  • Thomas: SLB
• For the 3-4 look, the WLB moves outside and up on or near the line.
• Using the concept that Jaylon is the 4-3 WLB, then he becomes one of the 3-4 OLBs.
• RDE Quinn shifts outside and becomes the other 3-4 OLB.
  • Jaylon-DLaw-1tech-3tech-Quinn
  • .............Lee..........Thomas..........
• The basic gaps:
  • Cgap-Bgap-Agap-Agap-Bgap-Cgap
• 4-3 assignments (with 1tech left):
  • LDE-LB-1tech-LB-3tech-RDE
• 3-4 Look using 4-3 position names:
  • LB-LDE-1tech-LB-3tech-RDE
• Against the run DLaw now has the Bgap, which was assigned to a LB.
• The LB that had the Bgap now has the Cgap that DLaw had in the 4-3 alignment.
• The Cowboys biggest issues in run defense have been against the outside zone run.
  • The RB has the option to cut back inside.
  • Some defenders are split trying to defend both the outside run and the inside cut back.
  • The LBs are getting boxed out from from moving side to side by blockers.
  • Against outside zone, 1tech is trying to defend both outside and inside.
    • On outside runs to the 1tech's side, the Bgap is "open".
    • On outside runs to the 3tech's side, it is the Agap that is "open".
  • The 1tech needs to move quickly to the outside against the outside run.
  • The 1tech taking himself out of the inside, makes it easy to block for the inside cut back.
• 
  
• With the 3-4 look:
  • Jaylon's assignments against the run would be outside regardless.
    • His need to move side to side is reduced. Blockers can not box him out laterally.
  • Lee's assignments against the run would be inside regardless.
    • His need to move side to side is reduced. Blockers can not box him out laterally.
  • The 1tech's need to move outside is minimized.
    • There is not an "open" gap between him and the outside.
    • A DE now fills that gap instead of it being assigned to a LB.
• 
  
• Key Benefits:
• "Squeezes" 3 DL inside the area between the outside shoulders of the OTs.
  • In the 4-3 there are just the 2 DTs in that space.
• WLB is outside and up on the line.
  • His run assignments are outside instead of split between inside and outside.
  • Blockers can not box him out from moving outside since he is already there.
• MLB continues to line up inside.
  • His run assignments are inside instead of split between inside and outside.
  • Blockers can not box him out moving laterally if his assignments are inside.
• Minimizes 1tech DT's need to quickly move to the outside against outside zone runs.
  • This keeps the 1tech DT in place when the RB cuts back inside.
• Trade-Offs:
  • Pass defense on 1st downs against 3 WR sets.
  • The defense can still use this "look" when the Nickel CB replaces a LB vs 3 WR sets.
  • Jaylon-DLaw-1tech-3tech-Quinn
  • ..................Lee...........................Nickel-CB.
  • The run assignments are all set based on the side where the OLB is aligned.
  • The OLB and Nickel CB will be on opposite sides.
  • When offensive players motion to the opposite side (slot CB or TE), the defense needs to stay in place.
  • This results in situations where the OLB is lined up on the side with the slot WR.
  • The LB and a Safety would play hi/low zone on the slot WR.
  • The LB can bump or impede the path of the slot WR, with a Safety picking up coverage behind him.

My biggest problem with this is that a 3-4 defense requires 2-gapping and everything the DL has been coached for years is how to attack upfield in a 1-gapping scheme.

Even if you disregard the years of training, we dont have the big immovable guy for 1tech let alone a Nose Tackle. Even DLaw looks a bit small for 3-4 end.

Then you consider Quinn hasn't looked good in the 3-4 system either.

You aren't stopping the run with 3 down lineman if you arent 2 gapping. We'd be trying to 2gap with an undersized DL that has been almost exclusively 1 gapping for years, and our best pass rushers would be playing out of position. Dont even get me started on what happens when Lee is asked to play inside for extended periods.

I dont like it.

 

[Haimerej]

That is how it appears but the scheme is the root cause.

No more than any other scheme. All schemes break when assignments are missed.

 

[Haimerej]

OLinemen have a big leverage advantage on the 1tech DT when he is moving sideways for a significant distance.

Not if he gets in the gap. Again, if you're playing the zone run you will end up going sideways but you first have to fill the gap. If you immediately move sideways and the center can get you out of the gap via positioning you've lost your assignment. That's not a scheme problem.

 

[Haimerej]

The Cowboys have been getting gashed by the outsize zone runs where the RB ends up cutting back inside but the Cowboys defenders have moved too far outside. They've been trying to resolve that issue which means that LVE needs to "wait" on the inside before he moves to quickly to the outside. The scheme requires perfect timing against outside zone because of the RBs cut back option.

The playside defender is supposed to turn the runner back so he doesn't get the edge. If the rest of the defense is maintaining their gaps he'll have nowhere to cut.

If you're referencing my critique of that one play, LVE was indeed late to his gap. He was lined up on the strongside but effectively played the Will as the run went to the weak side. But the main problem with that play was both defensive tackles getting beaten by reach blocks and losing their gaps. LVE wouldn't have been as late if the runner wasn't able to hit Covington's assignment gap on his cutback.

 

[DallasCowboys2080]

Another possible solution: Fire Marinelli and Richard

Fire Carrot first. We keep changing out other coaches and still get the same results.

 

[Verdict]

I've seen many suggestions on improving the run defense such as the DL playing 2-gap.

There are many reasons that probably would not work.

A better change might be to use a 3-4 look on 1st downs.

• A 3-4 look can be done just by moving an OLB to the outside of DLaw.
• DLaw would move towards the inside, to head up on the RT.
• Since LVE is out injured, I'll reference Lee as his replacement.
• 
  
• For the following explanation to make sense, "pretend" that the normal 4-3 alignment is:
  • Jaylon: WLB
  • Lee: MLB
  • Thomas: SLB
• For the 3-4 look, the WLB moves outside and up on or near the line.
• Using the concept that Jaylon is the 4-3 WLB, then he becomes one of the 3-4 OLBs.
• RDE Quinn shifts outside and becomes the other 3-4 OLB.
  • Jaylon-DLaw-1tech-3tech-Quinn
  • .............Lee..........Thomas..........
• The basic gaps:
  • Cgap-Bgap-Agap-Agap-Bgap-Cgap
• 4-3 assignments (with 1tech left):
  • LDE-LB-1tech-LB-3tech-RDE
• 3-4 Look using 4-3 position names:
  • LB-LDE-1tech-LB-3tech-RDE
• Against the run DLaw now has the Bgap, which was assigned to a LB.
• The LB that had the Bgap now has the Cgap that DLaw had in the 4-3 alignment.
• The Cowboys biggest issues in run defense have been against the outside zone run.
  • The RB has the option to cut back inside.
  • Some defenders are split trying to defend both the outside run and the inside cut back.
  • The LBs are getting boxed out from from moving side to side by blockers.
  • Against outside zone, 1tech is trying to defend both outside and inside.
    • On outside runs to the 1tech's side, the Bgap is "open".
    • On outside runs to the 3tech's side, it is the Agap that is "open".
  • The 1tech needs to move quickly to the outside against the outside run.
  • The 1tech taking himself out of the inside, makes it easy to block for the inside cut back.
• 
  
• With the 3-4 look:
  • Jaylon's assignments against the run would be outside regardless.
    • His need to move side to side is reduced. Blockers can not box him out laterally.
  • Lee's assignments against the run would be inside regardless.
    • His need to move side to side is reduced. Blockers can not box him out laterally.
  • The 1tech's need to move outside is minimized.
    • There is not an "open" gap between him and the outside.
    • A DE now fills that gap instead of it being assigned to a LB.
• 
  
• Key Benefits:
• "Squeezes" 3 DL inside the area between the outside shoulders of the OTs.
  • In the 4-3 there are just the 2 DTs in that space.
• WLB is outside and up on the line.
  • His run assignments are outside instead of split between inside and outside.
  • Blockers can not box him out from moving outside since he is already there.
• MLB continues to line up inside.
  • His run assignments are inside instead of split between inside and outside.
  • Blockers can not box him out moving laterally if his assignments are inside.
• Minimizes 1tech DT's need to quickly move to the outside against outside zone runs.
  • This keeps the 1tech DT in place when the RB cuts back inside.
• Trade-Offs:
  • Pass defense on 1st downs against 3 WR sets.
  • The defense can still use this "look" when the Nickel CB replaces a LB vs 3 WR sets.
  • Jaylon-DLaw-1tech-3tech-Quinn
  • ..................Lee...........................Nickel-CB.
  • The run assignments are all set based on the side where the OLB is aligned.
  • The OLB and Nickel CB will be on opposite sides.
  • When offensive players motion to the opposite side (slot CB or TE), the defense needs to stay in place.
  • This results in situations where the OLB is lined up on the side with the slot WR.
  • The LB and a Safety would play hi/low zone on the slot WR.
  • The LB can bump or impede the path of the slot WR, with a Safety picking up coverage behind him.

They need to do something different. Maybe they will read this and get some ideas. Probably not. They like their way of doing things.

 

[xwalker]

What was the alignment when bo ran for 30 yards up the gut? On that play the center stayed in for a split second but didn't need to block anyone so he went an stonewalled the LB. Might have been covington at the 1 but he was rushing outside leaving the center open, with bennett rushing inside but couldn't get to the RB.

1st and 10, 23 yard gain by RB Bo Scarbrough:

• They had a 1tech and 3tech on that play.
  • The 1tech was aligned straight instead of angled towards the Center.
  • That is a give-away that the 1tech will be moving outside.
  • The issue is that the 1tech "jumps" outside taking himself out of inside run defense.
  • That is a defensive play-call, not a player decision.
• LVE had blitzed from outside the LDE.
  • Jaylon moved over to compensate in coverage for LVE blitzing.
• They can have the 1tech jump 2 gaps over OR they can blitz a LB but doing BOTH on the same play is asking for disaster.
• The 3tech (Hyder) almost made the play but the OL was holding.
  • The Cowboys have been called for holding many times on almost identical plays.
  • When the OL gets his arm around a DL moving sideways and rides him to the ground, it's holding under modern NFL rules.
• Order of Blame:
  • 1. Scheme: They have the 1tech vacating the middle and the LBs vacating the middle.
  • 2. Holding by the Lions: They were holding but the Cowboys shouldn't be dependent on the 3tech making that play.
  • 3. Jaylon: Could have reacted faster once the RB clearly had the ball.
  • 4. Lee: Playing SLB, probably should stay a couple of steps back to avoid getting boxed out.
  • .
  • .
  • .
  • 11. The physical ability of the 1tech DT.

 

[MysteryIceGuro]

1st and 10, 23 yard gain by RB Bo Scarbrough:

• They had a 1tech and 3tech on that play.
  • The 1tech was aligned straight instead of angled towards the Center.
  • That is a give-away that the 1tech will be moving outside.
  • The issue is that the 1tech "jumps" outside taking himself out of inside run defense.
  • That is a defensive play-call, not a player decision.
• LVE had blitzed from outside the LDE.
  • Jaylon moved over to compensate in coverage for LVE blitzing.
• They can have the 1tech jump 2 gaps over OR they can blitz a LB but doing BOTH on the same play is asking for disaster.
• The 3tech (Hyder) almost made the play but the OL was holding.
  • The Cowboys have been called for holding many times on almost identical plays.
  • When the OL gets his arm around a DL moving sideways and rides him to the ground, it's holding under modern NFL rules.
• Order of Blame:
  • 1. Scheme: They have the 1tech vacating the middle and the LBs vacating the middle.
  • 2. Holding by the Lions: They were holding but the Cowboys shouldn't be dependent on the 3tech making that play.
  • 3. Jaylon: Could have reacted faster once the RB clearly had the ball.
  • 4. Lee: Playing SLB, probably should stay a couple of steps back to avoid getting boxed out.
  • .
  • .
  • .
  • 11. The physical ability of the 1tech DT.

You need to turn in your resume to Jerry Jones. You seem to know more than Richard and Marinelli

 

[xwalker]

They need to do something different. Maybe they will read this and get some ideas. Probably not. They like their way of doing things.

All they need to do is study the Super Bowl and how the Pat played defense against the Rams zone running scheme.

The Pats were playing 4-3 last year and just made a couple of tweaks to their alignment on run downs to counter what the Rams did to the Cowboys.

 

[xwalker]

wow, lets just change assignments, positions and say "well it works in Madden" again, people are missing the big picture, Dallas is having problems because of coaches or dumb players, which is it, because either way, there is not an easy fix on game day.

I've never played Madden or even watched anybody play Madden.

If you read everything that I posted, I answer the question of coaches/scheme vs players.

It's really not a big change.

If LVE was healthy, the change would just be moving him outside and up almost on the line outside of DLaw.

The DL would just shift right slightly.

The primary changes would be that LVE and DLaw would swap gap assignments.

There would be some tweaks to coverage assignments.

Last season the Patriots defense on run downs used a similar 4-3 alignment to what they Cowboys are using.

Specifically for the Super Bowl against the Rams Run Blocking Scheme, the Pats made changes similar to what I've described above.

This season the Pats have changed to run more 3-4 looks on 1st downs.

 

[Macnalty]

Couldn't you accomplish a similar result (gap responsibilities) with an Over front and playing Jaylon as more of SAM than WILL?

I also think Marinelli is too locked into the success he had 20 years ago to be flexible enough to make this type of in-season adjustment.

I think you hit the nail on the head Chris great comment

 

[xwalker]

You need to turn in your resume to Jerry Jones. You seem to know more than Richard and Marinelli

I'll take that as a compliment.

I just study what other teams do on defense against the same offenses that gash the Cowboys with the run.

Unfortunately, the Cowboys defensive struggles to stop the run and their offensive struggles to run the ball are the same problem

• The Cowboys offense does not do to defenses what other offenses do to the Cowboys defense.
• It comes back to the outside zone run with the cut back option.
• The Cowboys defense struggles to defend it.
• The Cowboys offense struggles to consistently execute it.

 

[xwalker]

My biggest problem with this is that a 3-4 defense requires 2-gapping and everything the DL has been coached for years is how to attack upfield in a 1-gapping scheme.

Even if you disregard the years of training, we dont have the big immovable guy for 1tech let alone a Nose Tackle. Even DLaw looks a bit small for 3-4 end.

Then you consider Quinn hasn't looked good in the 3-4 system either.

You aren't stopping the run with 3 down lineman if you arent 2 gapping. We'd be trying to 2gap with an undersized DL that has been almost exclusively 1 gapping for years, and our best pass rushers would be playing out of position. Dont even get me started on what happens when Lee is asked to play inside for extended periods.

I dont like it.

No, the 3-4 does not require 2-gapping unless Parcells returns to coach an NFL team.

The Wade Phillips 3-4 does not require 2-gapping.

Belichick is running more 3-4 this year but it's primarily a 1-gap 3-4.

 

[xwalker]

I'm not in favor of any change that moves Quinn to a 34 OLB. That was done with him in Miami, I believe, and his production kinda fell off a cliff. Right now, he might be the best thing about this defense.

I honestly think it's more a matter of committing to gap integrity and stopping with all of this penetration off the snap. Creates to many gaps and our LBs are not at a point where they can diagnose the play and recover. Tell them where to run and limit a little bit and I think they could be fine but the real problem is the talent onboard. We don't have the proper personnel to run either style of Defense at this point and you are very limited in the changes you can make mid season.

This, to me, is an off season fix but that's the thing right? You gotta admit you have a problem and actually commit to fixing it. Not just go with, we like our guys when you are consistently getting your collective arses whipped and then you have the kind of talent we have at LB? That doesn't work at all and the fans are proving that out.

I said this was primarily for 1st downs. Quinn would rarely if ever been in coverage on 1st downs in this alignment.

The current scheme makes it impossible for players to consistently "diagnose" plays because on outside zone run plays the RB has the option to cut back inside. The RB "reads" 2 defenders and then runs far outside, outside just outside the OT or cuts back inside. RBs with good timing on when to cut back can cause defenders to make the wrong decision on the majority of plays.

The concept on the outside zone plays is to box out the LBs from moving side to side.
If the LBs move more outside, they get an OL inside of them then the RB cuts back inside.
If the LBs stay inside longer, then they get an OL between the LB and the outside and the RB stays outside.

The other concept for offenses against the Cowboys is to get the 1tech DT to take himself towards the outside.
Similar to the LB concept above, if the 1tech stays put, the RB runs outside.
If the 1tech moves quickly to the outside, the RB cuts back inside.

The Rams in the playoff game primarily caught the 1tech and play-side LB too far outside and the RB would cut back inside and gash them.

The Cowboys have tried to counter teams doing that and starting having the LBs and/or 1tech delay moving outside on some plays.
The Vikings gashed them on the outside because they were intentionally staying inside longer to avoid the cut back.

 

[CB61]

I've seen many suggestions on improving the run defense such as the DL playing 2-gap.

There are many reasons that probably would not work.

A better change might be to use a 3-4 look on 1st downs.

• A 3-4 look can be done just by moving an OLB to the outside of DLaw.
• DLaw would move towards the inside, to head up on the RT.
• Since LVE is out injured, I'll reference Lee as his replacement.
• 
  
• For the following explanation to make sense, "pretend" that the normal 4-3 alignment is:
  • Jaylon: WLB
  • Lee: MLB
  • Thomas: SLB
• For the 3-4 look, the WLB moves outside and up on or near the line.
• Using the concept that Jaylon is the 4-3 WLB, then he becomes one of the 3-4 OLBs.
• RDE Quinn shifts outside and becomes the other 3-4 OLB.
  • Jaylon-DLaw-1tech-3tech-Quinn
  • .............Lee..........Thomas..........
• The basic gaps:
  • Cgap-Bgap-Agap-Agap-Bgap-Cgap
• 4-3 assignments (with 1tech left):
  • LDE-LB-1tech-LB-3tech-RDE
• 3-4 Look using 4-3 position names:
  • LB-LDE-1tech-LB-3tech-RDE
• Against the run DLaw now has the Bgap, which was assigned to a LB.
• The LB that had the Bgap now has the Cgap that DLaw had in the 4-3 alignment.
• The Cowboys biggest issues in run defense have been against the outside zone run.
  • The RB has the option to cut back inside.
  • Some defenders are split trying to defend both the outside run and the inside cut back.
  • The LBs are getting boxed out from from moving side to side by blockers.
  • Against outside zone, 1tech is trying to defend both outside and inside.
    • On outside runs to the 1tech's side, the Bgap is "open".
    • On outside runs to the 3tech's side, it is the Agap that is "open".
  • The 1tech needs to move quickly to the outside against the outside run.
  • The 1tech taking himself out of the inside, makes it easy to block for the inside cut back.
• 
  
• With the 3-4 look:
  • Jaylon's assignments against the run would be outside regardless.
    • His need to move side to side is reduced. Blockers can not box him out laterally.
  • Lee's assignments against the run would be inside regardless.
    • His need to move side to side is reduced. Blockers can not box him out laterally.
  • The 1tech's need to move outside is minimized.
    • There is not an "open" gap between him and the outside.
    • A DE now fills that gap instead of it being assigned to a LB.
• 
  
• Key Benefits:
• "Squeezes" 3 DL inside the area between the outside shoulders of the OTs.
  • In the 4-3 there are just the 2 DTs in that space.
• WLB is outside and up on the line.
  • His run assignments are outside instead of split between inside and outside.
  • Blockers can not box him out from moving outside since he is already there.
• MLB continues to line up inside.
  • His run assignments are inside instead of split between inside and outside.
  • Blockers can not box him out moving laterally if his assignments are inside.
• Minimizes 1tech DT's need to quickly move to the outside against outside zone runs.
  • This keeps the 1tech DT in place when the RB cuts back inside.
• Trade-Offs:
  • Pass defense on 1st downs against 3 WR sets.
  • The defense can still use this "look" when the Nickel CB replaces a LB vs 3 WR sets.
  • Jaylon-DLaw-1tech-3tech-Quinn
  • ..................Lee...........................Nickel-CB.
  • The run assignments are all set based on the side where the OLB is aligned.
  • The OLB and Nickel CB will be on opposite sides.
  • When offensive players motion to the opposite side (slot CB or TE), the defense needs to stay in place.
  • This results in situations where the OLB is lined up on the side with the slot WR.
  • The LB and a Safety would play hi/low zone on the slot WR.
  • The LB can bump or impede the path of the slot WR, with a Safety picking up coverage behind him.

Well I wonder if the coaches think these people aren't smart enough the run this complicated of a defense and that's why we run what we run all good points you made anything would be better than what the hell were playing that's for darn sure

 

[CB61]

Well I wonder if the coaches think these people aren't smart enough the run this complicated of a defense and that's why we run what we run all good points you made anything would be better than what the hell were playing that's for darn sure

And I see how you simplied I didn't miss that point oh, maybe the coaches aren't smart enough? It just be befuddles why we can't make adjustments

 

[CB61]

And I see how you simplied I didn't miss that point oh, maybe the coaches aren't smart enough? It just be befuddles why we can't make adjustments

No I'm not an English major or users a big words I've just run out of words to say that it puzzles me

 

[JayFord]

Or maybe we can just tackle them.

My mom used to say

“Jay if you tackle the man as soon as he get the ball you aint gotta be huffin and puffin to try and catch it”

 

[Iago33]

Or maybe we can just tackle them.

There are times when you drop knowledge that only a former coach can provide. Well done!

 

[xwalker]

The playside defender is supposed to turn the runner back so he doesn't get the edge. If the rest of the defense is maintaining their gaps he'll have nowhere to cut.

If you're referencing my critique of that one play, LVE was indeed late to his gap. He was lined up on the strongside but effectively played the Will as the run went to the weak side. But the main problem with that play was both defensive tackles getting beaten by reach blocks and losing their gaps. LVE wouldn't have been as late if the runner wasn't able to hit Covington's assignment gap on his cutback.

I don't know which specific play that you are referencing.

This does not tell me which specific play that you are referencing:
"Covington being responsible for the playside A gap but the center gets him turned with a reach block to the weakside A"

Also, "The playside defender" does not indicate a specific defender. There are more than 1 play-side defenders.

As I've tried to explain, the outside zone run which gives the RB the option to cut back inside, changes the concept of "playing your gap" on defense.

With an OLineman coming to block a LB, that LB's gap is outside that OL if the RB runs outside, but that LB's gap is inside that OL if the RB cuts back inside.

In the Cowboys scheme, it's similar for the 1tech when the run is to his side. The 1tech is in the play-side A gap. On outside zone runs he is required to squeeze down the B gap which is an "open" gap. The problem is that if the RB cuts back the Cowboys scheme expects the 1tech to get back and play his original A gap.

It's much less of an issue on outside zone to the 3tech's side because he is already in the B gap.

All but 1 or 2 of the Rams runs were to the 1tech's side.

The Patriots had been using a 4-3 alignment last season similar to the Cowboys. In the Super Bowl they made changes similar to what I've described and the Rams ended up running to the 3tech's side the majority of the time. Their precision run blocking scheme fizzled primarily because of a relatively simple alignment change by the Patriots.