Sacks vs. Tackles for loss

jday

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If they are averaging 4 yards/carry but there is a high percentage of tackles for loss, that indicates that they are occasionally gashing the defense for 8 to 10 yards.

Example A:
1st down: 10 yard gain
1st down: 10 yard gain
1st down: 4 yard loss
2nd/3rd: Low probability of converting

Example B:
1st down: 3 yard gain
2nd/3rd high probability of converting

1st down: 3 yard gain
2nd/3rd high probability of converting

1st down: 3 yard gain
2nd/3rd high probability of converting

I knew it was a trick question.
 

Nova

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When I say tackles for loss, I actually feel that sacks are included. Also, I included tackles for minimal gain with my overall assessment of Dl's. Finally, I think you may be confusing the 3-4 and the 4-3. In the 4-3, the defensive lineman's job, as a general rule is to get penetration and disrupt plays in the backfield, the lone exception typically being the 1-tech DT, whose job is to not allow the C and LG to push him back and give the QB space to step up in the pocket. In the 3-4, Dl primary job is to be blocker eaters while the Lb's actually make the plays. Don't get me wrong, dependent on the play, Dl will typically be assigned gaps, however, they won't be sitting on those gaps, they will be attempting to shoot through them to get to the ball carrier, whoever that may be.

Ehhhh, not really getting the duties confused. I’m aware of the “play the run on the way to the quarterback” aspect. I didn’t mean for it to sound like the duties of the DL were to occupy blockers.

But I did misunderstand your original distinction (or lackthereof) between TFL and sacks.

I think a stat you may find a nice piece to your puzzle is total QB pressures (sacks, hurries, qb hits).
 

jday

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Ehhhh, not really getting the duties confused. I’m aware of the “play the run on the way to the quarterback” aspect. I didn’t mean for it to sound like the duties of the DL were to occupy blockers.

But I did misunderstand your original distinction (or lackthereof) between TFL and sacks.

I think a stat you may find a nice piece to your puzzle is total QB pressures (sacks, hurries, qb hits).

I could have done a better job if defining TFL's. My overall point, though, is that I think far too much emphasis is placed on sacks alone. As you pointed out, there is much more to look at above and beyond sacks.
 

burmafrd

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I'm not really sure you can overrate TFL's; they have immeasurable value to a defense. The further from a 1st down you push a team the less options they have in their playbook. And, I seriously have to disagree with your assertion that TFL's are a result of an Ol's error. I will need to see some type of proof to buy that statement. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I see Dl outplay Ol far more often then I see Ol missing their assignment all together...especially in professional football.

You NOTICE DL making plays that are eye catching. Empircal evidence is easy to find; just use logic. How many plays are there in a game? Then how many TFL's or Sacks are there in each game? Unless one team really stinks it up you are at MOST looking at 1 in 10. So how likely is it that it is a play more than a mistake?

As regards TFL's- I can understand you are a big fan but if you think they are really that valuable? Especially on 1st Downs? Once again use logic. Most Sacks happen when on a clear passing down. Which usually is MORE important then just about any 1st down.
 

jday

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You NOTICE DL making plays that are eye catching. Empircal evidence is easy to find; just use logic. How many plays are there in a game? Then how many TFL's or Sacks are there in each game? Unless one team really stinks it up you are at MOST looking at 1 in 10. So how likely is it that it is a play more than a mistake?

As regards TFL's- I can understand you are a big fan but if you think they are really that valuable? Especially on 1st Downs? Once again use logic. Most Sacks happen when on a clear passing down. Which usually is MORE important then just about any 1st down.

I had to explain this in another response, but just to be clear, a sack by definition is a tackle for loss. My question was, why is there seem to be so much focus on sacks alone, when that is a relatively small part of a dl's function.
 

xwalker

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I knew it was a trick question.
It was not intended to be a trick question.

Marinelli's concept of playing the run on the way to the passer should result in more tackles for loss; however, it will also result in some 6 yard runs that would have been 3 yard runs with a DL that holds their position waiting for the run.
 

jday

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It was not intended to be a trick question.

Marinelli's concept of playing the run on the way to the passer should result in more tackles for loss; however, it will also result in some 6 yard runs that would have been 3 yard runs with a DL that holds their position waiting for the run.

Clearly, holding their position is not the answer. We simply do not have the secondary to let the QB sit back there without pressure. And since Kiffin seemed to have our secondary in zone much of last year and our Dl was unable to generate pressure, it resulted in a horrible year vs the pass. Keeping a secondary in zone only works if pressure can be applied on a consistent basis.
 

burmafrd

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I had to explain this in another response, but just to be clear, a sack by definition is a tackle for loss. My question was, why is there seem to be so much focus on sacks alone, when that is a relatively small part of a dl's function.

BSPN.
 

jday

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While BSPN is a big part of it, it seems national and local mediots alike seem to focus on sacks alone, regardless of the media outlet. As I stated before, while a huge swing for the game, it's such a small part of what they actually do on a play-to-play basis.
 

Irvin88_4life

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I agree with your assessment that sacks aren't everything for a defensive lineman. For example, I probably feel that Ware had more of an impact in games last year than many other people do. Many people look at his low sack totals and based on that, declare that he had a mediocre season. However, you have to consider the other variables... how many pressures did he generate? How many times was he double teamed (and thus creating opportunities for someone else to make a play)?

He wasn't doubled much, look at the GB game where a rookie 4th round pick blocked Ware one on one. Many times Ware only tried to use speed to get around OT and just run out of the play. Ware had a terrible season once he got hurt, first few games we was a beast though
 

Irvin88_4life

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Points a game is important, but it's misleading. How many of those points were set up by defense or sts?

We were 25th in third down conversion... Great? No offense thats even close great is 25th in 3rd down conversions.. we werent very good at running the ball for much of the year either.

Nobody who watched this team week in week out would say we had a borderline great offense. .. No frickin way

I watched every game and yes this offense is almost in elite status. Had we ran the ball more it would have been great last year
 

burmafrd

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He wasn't doubled much, look at the GB game where a rookie 4th round pick blocked Ware one on one. Many times Ware only tried to use speed to get around OT and just run out of the play. Ware had a terrible season once he got hurt, first few games we was a beast though

All he had was straightline speed; he could not cut or move much. It was almost as painful as watching him in 2012 at the end; it was completely unforgiveable for the Boys to not put him on IR those last couple of weeks.
 

Irvin88_4life

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All he had was straightline speed; he could not cut or move much. It was almost as painful as watching him in 2012 at the end; it was completely unforgiveable for the Boys to not put him on IR those last couple of weeks.

I agree it was sad to watch Ware after the first few games. It was terrible
 

theogt

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This is different than your question, but...

In terms of the running game, would you prefer a defense that had a high percentage of tackles for loss, but their overall rushing average against is 4 yards/carry or would you prefer a defense that rarely has tackles for loss, but their rushing average against is 3 yards/carry?
Why on earth would anyone want a team that obtains, on average, less yardage?

Unless there are other facts to this equation, no one should ever pick the 3 yard/carry team.
 

Hoofbite

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Sacks are generally larger losses, and often come on 3rd down when the offense has no other chances at getting a first down.

They're almost always bigger hits than any RB ever takes in the backfield.

This leads to 2 things. Hit-for-hit QBs fumble at what I would imagine to be an extremely higher rate than RB, giving you a turnover possibility.

Larger hits hurt more. Even without injury, QBs will feel that hit and be conscious of it.

Small losses count for sure but large losses count more.
 

Cebrin

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We were close to a great offense last year? Hahahaha, go look up what great means.

The Broncos were great

The Broncos were historical. The Cowboys were 5th in scoring. I'd be hard nosed to not call 5/32 pretty great and even more hard nosed to not expect to build off of that with the addition of a 1st round lineman and a good receiver.
 

Toruk_Makto

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What about our offense tells you it will be great? We werent anything close to great last year..We might better, sure.. I dont see great

Not to take away from your original post. I agree w your opinion on the importance of generating consistent pressure

Probably because we were top 5 on scoring points last year and a touchdown from being 2nd overall.

Then considering we just added a first round offensive lineman not sure why this is so difficult for you....
 

Cebrin

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I watched every game and yes this offense is almost in elite status. Had we ran the ball more it would have been great last year
Yes, the numbers are lies! TD's are not the important part of a game. 3rd downs are.
 

Toruk_Makto

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A Tackle for Loss is similar to a Sack. A Tackle for Loss on 1st or 2nd down puts the defense in a good position on the remaining downs. If a defense allows 3 yards on 1st down, it makes converting on 2nd or 3rd much more likely. A defense that has a tackle for loss on every 3rd 1st down is much more likely to get off the field sooner than a defense that consistently allows 3 yards on 1st down.

Well yes. But that's a very specific scenario.

In a long season the team that gives up a lower ypc... All else equal will also give up fewer points.
 

Hoofbite

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If they are averaging 4 yards/carry but there is a high percentage of tackles for loss, that indicates that they are occasionally gashing the defense for 8 to 10 yards.

Example A:
1st down: 10 yard gain
1st down: 10 yard gain
1st down: 4 yard loss
2nd/3rd: Low probability of converting

Example B:
1st down: 3 yard gain
2nd/3rd high probability of converting

1st down: 3 yard gain
2nd/3rd high probability of converting

1st down: 3 yard gain
2nd/3rd high probability of converting

I just want to be clear as to which one you are suggesting you'd take.
 
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