So why isn't Al Johnson starting ahead of Gurode??

[LaTunaNostra]

Gurode has been one of the players on the team that has been especially prone to mental errors.

I would be very curious to see this "evidence" as well.

That came from Bill.

I too remember when he said it.

Tuna said he wanted Dre to stop overthinking, to react more on instinct, what it sounded like to me was your typical running thru every eventuality in your mind thing that young players do before their responses become automatic. Second guessing, even third, as opposed to not knowing what to do.

Self-doubt, which could be just as or more troubling than "dumbness".

As far as off the field brain power...who knows - not much to go on - and who are we to say anyway - but Gurode is the most articulate current Cowboy I have yet heard interviewed, and there are some bright ones.

 

[scottsp]

I'm don't wish to read too much into Gurode starting, but I must confess...

I much rather have guys competing for starting spots than positions basically being handed down by default as they seem to have been here in recent years. But, as we know, more talent and development of such brings on the occasional camp battle or two. Wonderful stuff.

Hard to know without seeing these guys in action what it all means. I love the fact guys are being pushed and not going unchecked.

Quite frankly, who starts where now doesn't mean too much to me. I'll care a lot more in about a month.

 

[AbeBeta]

That came from Bill.

I too remember when he said it.

Tuna said he wanted Dre to stop overthinking, to react more on instinct, what it sounded like to me was your typical running thru every eventuality in your mind thing that young players do before their responses become automatic. Second guessing, even third, as opposed to not knowing what to do.

It's so cool that Bill is not only an awesome coach but also, he seems to have seemingly impossible insights into his player's mental processes!

I too remember Bill saying this. He may be right. But he has no way of knowing what is going wrong in Gurode's head.

BTW -- why put an "overthinker" in a position where he is going to have to not only think about his own stuff but also make line calls? Overthinking there gets you a 5 yard penalty.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

I too remember Bill saying this. He may be right. But he has no way of knowing what is going wrong in Gurode's head.

The man has coached for thirty years...after all that time, there is a such a reservoir of experience, that commonalties over the years help identify the issues. I am sure Bill, who has coached so many developing players, has seen the 'signs' of what he terms 'over-thinking' , and has seen them many, many times in three decades.

Sure, he can't know for sure what is going on (or not going on) in a player's mind when he pulls a flag. It could be Gurode is thinking of cheeseburgers smothered in onions when he jumps the gun.

But Bill evidently thinks he is trying so hard, in that split second that often dictates getting beat or not beat, to not get bet, he gets beat. :laugh2:

I have seen the flags fly in similar fashion for plenty of players named "Quick Start", or "False Start", or "Offsides" and some considerably more mature than Dre.

Whatever the issue, Dre has to sort it out, or be gone.

But I won't second guess Parcells' assessment of what the mental processes are....he's just seen too darn many of 'em.

 

[mperfection]

Maybe our starting Center is starting.

Great point Saladin. I wish Nors would just shut up with all of this "mentally-capable" talk concerning Gurode.

 

[Echo9]

That came from Bill.

I too remember when he said it.

Tuna said he wanted Dre to stop overthinking, to react more on instinct, what it sounded like to me was your typical running thru every eventuality in your mind thing that young players do before their responses become automatic. Second guessing, even third, as opposed to not knowing what to do.

Self-doubt, which could be just as or more troubling than "dumbness".

As far as off the field brain power...who knows - not much to go on - and who are we to say anyway - but Gurode is the most articulate current Cowboy I have yet heard interviewed, and there are some bright ones.

Thanks for the confirmation LTN.

I agree that , second-guessing and over-thiking a situation that should be instinctive could actually be a bigger problem then the run-of-the-mill dumbness.

My comment was just trying to get rid of the assumption that Gurode's problems are based in him being stupid.

 

[Echo9]

Now people have agendas at OC and OG too?

Love to see one reference from a credible source stating Gurode was highly inteligent or overthinking. I promise I'm not igniring it.

How long should we hold our breath before you come up with that?

Well, LTN's backing of the comment by BP should do it for you.


You can exhale now.

 

[Alexander]

The man has coached for thirty years...after all that time, there is a such a reservoir of experience, that commonalties over the years help identify the issues. I am sure Bill, who has coached so many developing players, has seen the 'signs' of what he terms 'over-thinking' , and has seen them many, many times in three decades.

Sure, he can't know for sure what is going on (or not going on) in a player's mind when he pulls a flag. It could be Gurode is thinking of cheeseburgers smothered in onions when he jumps the gun.

But Bill evidently thinks he is trying so hard, in that split second that often dictates getting beat or not beat, to not get bet, he gets beat. :laugh2:

I have seen the flags fly in similar fashion for plenty of players named "Quick Start", or "False Start", or "Offsides" and some considerably more mature than Dre.

Whatever the issue, Dre has to sort it out, or be gone.

But I won't second guess Parcells' assessment of what the mental processes are....he's just seen too darn many of 'em.

This is no different from any second stringer starting.

Rohan Davey is starting for the Patriots.

Al is still our starter. Coach Parcells is basically going to see what Gurode can do.

If Gurode was a simple fix, we never would have spent big money to get Rivera.

 

[AbeBeta]

But I won't second guess Parcells' assessment of what the mental processes are....he's just seen too darn many of 'em.

I'm willing to second guess Tuna here for one reason -- He diagnosed the problem as thinking too much. We can assume he addressed that over and over with Dre last year. What happened? Dre got benched - again. I would think that if the problem were correctly diagnosed, Bill would be a good enough coach to fix it.

Either way -- I'd love to see Dre become a player.

 

[Rush 2112]

Well, LTN's backing of the comment by BP should do it for you. You can exhale now.

I vaguely remember BP mentioning something about Gurode needing to be more instinctive. Don't recall him at all saying he was overthinking. Let's assume he did. Guy overthinks 2+2 to death and convinces himself it's 5. What name do you put on that?

I call it dumb. BP called his team dumb multiple times last year. Now come to find out guys like Tucker/Gurode aren't in the mix at RT or RG.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

I'm willing to second guess Tuna here for one reason -- He diagnosed the problem as thinking too much. We can assume he addressed that over and over with Dre last year. What happened? Dre got benched - again. I would think that if the problem were correctly diagnosed, Bill would be a good enough coach to fix it.

Either way -- I'd love to see Dre become a player.

Over-thinking is an area of information processing that one can't be coached out of.

It's a developmental aspect of cognition ..I see it a lot in language learning in the direct translation stage.

The best you can do is give the student/player enough "reps" to feel comfortable with the response, to automaticize it - and if self-doubt has crept in....to try to minimize it.

Unfortunately, in football, one's man failure impacts all the others, so you can't just allow the rate of learning because the route is fairly standard.

I saw something I found very interesting re Tuna and Gurode. and that was in that Parcells In His Own Words nfltv special. Tuna was gently pep talking Dre and telling him "you're not going to fail because I am not going to let you fail". Subsequently, Tuna claimed he had made a big mistake moving re from center to guard. Parcells obviously feels in some way he has failed this particular student.

We shall see if he can manage to reclaim him.

 

[junk]

As real as they get..............

Whats up with the Ty Law trade?

Someone else on the board claims to have an insider source that had us trading for Ty Law.

So, how 'bout some details? Don't have to out them, but give us an idea.

 

[scottsp]

Oh, the trade it coming. Just you wait.

 

[junk]

Over-thinking is an area of information processing that one can't be coached out of.

It's a developmental aspect of cognition ..I see it a lot in language learning in the direct translation stage.

The best you can do is give the student/player enough "reps" to feel comfortable with the response, to automaticize it - and if self-doubt has crept in....to try to minimize it.

Unfortunately, in football, one's man failure impacts all the others, so you can't just allow the rate of learning because the route is fairly standard.

I saw something I found very interesting re Tuna and Gurode. and that was in that Parcells In His Own Words nfltv special. Tuna was gently pep talking Dre and telling him "you're not going to fail because I am not going to let you fail". Subsequently, Tuna claimed he had made a big mistake moving re from center to guard. Parcells obviously feels in some way he has failed this particular student.

We shall see if he can manage to reclaim him.

Over thinking still makes a mental problem.

I personally feel that after three years he shouldn't be having those issues. He may not be dumb, but if he isn't capable of watching film, studying playbooks, practicing and executing it on the field, then he certainly isn't extraordinarily sharp either. I know plenty of intelligent people that don't have the sense to come in out of the rain. If its in a book, they know it. If they have to apply it, they struggle.

Maybe the issue is something else, we will probably never know. Hopefully, he gets over it though.

I still think I'd enjoy watching a chess match between Gurode and Pete "Cheesesteak" Hunter.

 

[Echo9]

I vaguely remember BP mentioning something about Gurode needing to be more instinctive. Don't recall him at all saying he was overthinking. Let's assume he did. Guy overthinks 2+2 to death and convinces himself it's 5. What name do you put on that?

I call it dumb. BP called his team dumb multiple times last year. Now come to find out guys like Tucker/Gurode aren't in the mix at RT or RG.

Here's a link for you:
http://www.dallascowboys.com/profile_gurode_andre.cfm

and a small excerpt as well.

In drafting Andre Gurode (pronounced ger-ODD) in the second round of the 2002 NFL Draft, the Dallas Cowboys viewed the offensive lineman as a talent who had the physical maturity and competitiveness necessary to become a contributor early in his career. He soon answered the call by becoming the first rookie in club history to start at center on opening day. Blessed with intelligence and versatility, Gurode handled the pressure of starting at two different offensive line positions throughout a year that was disrupted by injuries and uncertainty along the Dallas front....

another link:
http://www.football-gaming.com/data/02draft/185.shtml

and another excerpt:

PERSONAL
Ethnic Studies major…One-time member of CU’s "Academic Starters" team…

High School… Owned a 3.1 grade point average and won third place in a drafting competition for intermediate computer design as a junior…

another link
http://www.nflsim.net/nflsim/modules/League_College_Draft/player.php?id=498

and an excerpt:

Character Traits
Work Ethic: High
Intelligence: High
Athletic Ability: High
Durability: Durable
Endurance: High

Now I'm not backing Gurode as our starting Center, nor am I defending his play. Personally, I think Parcells has moved him to where he can be more successful in an attempt to keep him on the team.

I'm just saying he's not dumb.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

Over thinking still makes a mental problem.

I personally feel that after three years he shouldn't be having those issues. He may not be dumb, but if he isn't capable of watching film, studying playbooks, practicing and executing it on the field, then he certainly isn't extraordinarily sharp either. I know plenty of intelligent people that don't have the sense to come in out of the rain. If its in a book, they know it. If they have to apply it, they struggle.

Maybe the issue is something else, we will probably never know. Hopefully, he gets over it though.

I still think I'd enjoy watching a chess match between Gurode and Pete "Cheesesteak" Hunter.

Yes, overthinking is a 'mental problem". But it's one that doesn't emanate from 'dumbness", by any definition.

Unless of course, it's Tuna's generic 'dumbarse' one, which stings a lot less while packing a much greater wallop.

I want to see how the entire line improves this year. It on the whole majorly underachieved last year. Which is why Warhop was fired.

Only Johnson can be said to have had a truly 'good year', as it was his first and he certainly showed promise.

Playing between Rivera and Allen should help Dre enormously. The revolving door at RT did nothing to aid his development.

I really don't think he will beat out Al as starter.

But he will be very valuable as a swing guard-center, and in rotation. With his confidence back, he may surprise us.

And this is just the kind of issue that always seems to come back and bite you when you trade or release the player.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Any person that has never heard Gurode speak should at least take the time to hear the guy before throwing out ad hominems of the stupid and dumb vein.

From what I understand is that Gurode was having issues when he wen to the second level. Essentially he was to double team the tackle that the center was taking and then release to take on a linebacker.

Perhaps he didnt have his timing down and released too late/early. Perhaps he was concerned about spacing for running lanes. Maybe he was having a zone mentality when he should just take out the man prescribed. Who knows?

This a far cry from hit the center in front of you or pull left and demolish the first defender you see whn you come around the tackle.

Sorry, Gurode is a good player and if he does 'get it' I really like his size up front. He can handle most defensive tackles one on one and Johnson unfortunately proved last year that he need help most of the time on the bigger tackles.

 

[junk]

Yes, overthinking is a 'mental problem". But it's one that doesn't emanate from 'dumbness", by any definition.

Unless of course, it's Tuna's generic 'dumbarse' one, which stings a lot less while packing a much greater wallop.

I want to see how the entire line improves this year. It on the whole majorly underachieved last year. Which is why Warhop was fired.

Only Johnson can be said to have had a truly 'good year', as it was his first and he certainly showed promise.

Playing between Rivera and Allen should help Dre enormously. The revolving door at RT did nothing to aid his development.

I really don't think he will beat out Al as starter.

But he will be very valuable as a swing guard-center, and in rotation. With his confidence back, he may surprise us.

And this is just the kind of issue that always seems to come back and bite you when you trade or release the player.

I can't say I disagree with any of that. I am also hoping for Gurode to make the squad because of his experience and versatility. As much as we criticize him, I still like him better than Peterman at this point.

My last comment on the mental thing...maybe it isn't dumb...but it is some sort of mental weakness. Maybe its the lack of a fiery attitude, maybe a lack of self confidence, whatever it is, I am still convinced its mental and not a good thing.

Also consider the ages of the starting guards. Gurode's contract is up after this year. It'd be nice to resign him on the cheap.

Like I have said before, whatever gets Tyson Walter off the team. He is supposedly smart too, but you sure wouldn't know it by his actions.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

I can't say I disagree with any of that. I am also hoping for Gurode to make the squad because of his experience and versatility. As much as we criticize him, I still like him better than Peterman at this point.

My last comment on the mental thing...maybe it isn't dumb...but it is some sort of mental weakness. Maybe its the lack of a fiery attitude, maybe a lack of self confidence, whatever it is, I am still convinced its mental and not a good thing.

Also consider the ages of the starting guards. Gurode's contract is up after this year. It'd be nice to resign him on the cheap.

Like I have said before, whatever gets Tyson Walter off the team. He is supposedly smart too, but you sure wouldn't know it by his actions.

Junk, has Walter been even the slightest bit of a problem here?

 

[Billy Bullocks]

Maybe it's just the first preseason game and he wants to see how Gurode plays with first team (at that position) in a game situation. Maybe he already knows how Johnson can play the position with the first team and so therefore he's giving Gurode first dibs for this game.

Does it really have to be so controversial?

alot of people on this site read into things too much and get too excited about it. I dont see the controversy either. Make the topic 9/11 if this is still the case, and if it is, maybe Gurode is better...