Stuff I have to remind myself every year at cutdown time ..

igtmfo

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Plus a few random observations. ... Please feel free to add your own philosophical analysis to the following, all you professors out there ...

- THE CLETIS GORDON EFFECT - E.g.: Vets that have knocked around teams and practice squads for a few years but have had a good camp with you and people are thinking "this guy is coming into his own" are usually jettisoned at cutdown in favor of draft picks. You go with potential over a guy that has been dropped from four teams and is already 25-26 years old. If they had potential to be a real contributor, somebody would have seen it by that point and kept them around and they would have worked their way into playing time. You are what you are. This year's "Cletis Gordon" unfortunately is Kenwin Cummings. Cummings leads the team in preseason tackles but doesn't really have a strong role on a 53-man unless injuries decimate us. Lemon has a "dimension" as Parcells would say - real stout in short yardage situations and might have a role.

- YOU KEEP DRAFT PICKS OVER UDFAs. Corollary of the above principle. UDFAs more likely to pass waivers and make it back to your practice squad, at the very least.

- THE BIG DUDES STICK ON THE 53 - Easier to find a Andrew Sendejo on the street than a Sam Young or Jeremy Parnell, longer to develop too so you play them close to the vest. Though there's nothing wrong with Sendejo. Bias towards big bodies, always has been and always will.

- I WISH WE COULD HAVE SEEN TANNER AND RADWAY TAKE SOME SNAPS WITH THE FIRST TEAM IN GAMES - Otherwise they may turn out to be like ReShard Lee, who looked like a killer vs. the training camp spares in fourth quarters of preseason - but wound up looking pedestrian with the big boys who could run 4.4s and 4.3s. ... Radway had an "ooh aah' moment on a little quick screen against the Vikings - where he gained 10 yards before you could blink. I thought, "Man, we can't cut him ..." But yet again, this was against a second or third defense where you can't get much perspective.

- HOLLEY HAS NO SPECIAL TEAMS TACKLES THIS PRESEASON (per nfl.com) - He's not as good as Sam Hurd was on special teams, who was in on almost double the tackles Holley was last year. Unless I'm not noticing and Holley's a gunner? or good blocker on runbacks? - and not supposed to be making tackles I mean (Holley had 8 solo, three assisted tackles last year, pretty good no doubt). But he doesn't make the team purely as a receiver because of the "Cletis Gordon" syndrome. Great guy it seems. I'm just tired of people saying what a special teams stud he is - he's pretty good, but not worth keeping over a young fifth cornerback like Butler or something because he's just so great on STs.

- VESTED VETS ON ROSTER WEEK ONE get guaranteed money the whole season. (A guy can only do this only once in a career.) Complicates signing a veteran kicker. (Vested = 4 or more seasons in league.) I'm guessing this is in the new CBA (?) ... I had hoped a vet blocking TE could be brought in it but would need to be a youngish guy you can cut when Bennett improves. Same goes for a "name" WR that's cut and brought in that's better than Manny Johnson now, but might not be better than Radway in November.

- BUYER'S MARKET FOR TRADES. Players are worth least in trade at cutdown time of any time. You might get a sixth pick for Choice now, but he might bring a fourth when some contending team's No. 1 back goes down before trade deadline. Or maybe even a 1st, a 3rd and flip your 6th with their 7th (sorry Jerry!). So keep Choice around and exact a pound a flesh at trade deadline. Remember McQuistan was sent to Miami for nothing this time last year? Wow.

- SURPRISING GUYS ON PRACTICE SQUAD. AOA qualifies this season again, but a not a guy like Brandon Williams, who was on IR two years ago which counts toward an "accrued" season, best I can figure. As soon as I say this, I will be wrong and AdamJT will correct me. By the way, I think Adam is in the Cowboys front office, but I don't want to out him, because I don't want the Jones' to know that he fooling around on Cowboys' message boards when he should be working! I want him posting here with the real, true and ought.

- WAS BRUCE CARTER PLACED ON THE "PUP" LIST BEFORE TRAINING CAMP? If so, he doesn't count toward the 53, as long as he doesn't practice in the next few weeks, but can chill for six weeks of the reg season before coming back. Inquiring minds want to know ....

Sorry if a few above were obvious. Thanks everyone ...
 
To answer the last question, once someone practices they are no long eligible for the PUP list, once put on the PUP List they can stay on there till 6 weeks into the season.

So yes Carter can stay on for 6 more weeks.
 
dargonking999;4076272 said:
To answer the last question, once someone practices they are no long eligible for the PUP list, once put on the PUP List they can stay on there till 6 weeks into the season.

So yes Carter can stay on for 6 more weeks.

Thanks Dargon, but they have to be procedurally placed on the PUP list before the first preseason practice. Which no one, neither me or the media, is sure has happened. Everyone is confused about it. It's even more arcane a rule than whether you are "vested" or "accrued" or some similar NFL rule stuff.

I'm trying to think of the advantages NOT to put someone on PUP. Why not put a number of rookies on PUP this year, if you could give them a six-week waiver where they're not on the 53-man? .. Why not put some raw rook on PUP that is too skinny or too fat (Maybe Arkin can get stronger in six weeks since he's a little behind in strength development) and you want them to work with Mike Woicik in the meantime and you want to develop during the season but who you don't want on your 53 immediately? Do NFL doctors come around and make sure you are injured etc.

This is one for the mysterious AdamJT13. Maybe I have found a loophole and we can get Danny White back on the team ...
 
And Jerry, when asked about whether Choice was fighting for a roster spot:

Jerry, with contempt, said "YES."

I hope Choice makes it.

Hey everyone, have you seen Choice run down on punts or kickoffs? ... Is he so bad that he inspires contempt from the Cowboys front office? .. Is it that he hates to play special teams so much that he blows it off and avoids contact in all ways?, or is it that he is so pathetic on special teams, that he can't even be considered for development on special teams? .. Tashard is pretty stout in his attitude so I can't imagine why he can't be considered for special teams. Does he run off the field or something? Is he so weak that he can't hold down a lane? If he tackles someone does he have a connniption fit or go on IR? .. I don't understand why Tashard doesn't kick *** more on special teams.
 
igtmfo;4076313 said:
Thanks Dargon, but they have to be procedurally placed on the PUP list before the first preseason practice. Which no one, neither me or the media, is sure has happened. Everyone is confused about it. It's even more arcane a rule than whether you are "vested" or "accrued" or some similar NFL rule stuff.

I'm trying to think of the advantages NOT to put someone on PUP. Why not put a number of rookies on PUP this year, if you could give them a six-week waiver where they're not on the 53-man? .. Why not put some raw rook on PUP that is too skinny or too fat (Maybe Arkin can get stronger in six weeks since he's a little behind in strength development) and you want them to work with Mike Woicik in the meantime and you want to develop during the season but who you don't want on your 53 immediately? Do NFL doctors come around and make sure you are injured etc.

This is one for the mysterious AdamJT13. Maybe I have found a loophole and we can get Danny White back on the team ...

Well to clarify it further for you, it would seem as if he was placed on the NFI list, since his injury occurred pre- draft, and the same rules apply to the NFI list as the PUP list, so the benefit is sitll there.

And the reason you don't do those things that you asked later, is simple. It's bad NFL practice, and when caught (spy-gate) you face more than just heavy fines.
 
igtmfo;4076313 said:
Thanks Dargon, but they have to be procedurally placed on the PUP list before the first preseason practice. Which no one, neither me or the media, is sure has happened. Everyone is confused about it. It's even more arcane a rule than whether you are "vested" or "accrued" or some similar NFL rule stuff.

I'm trying to think of the advantages NOT to put someone on PUP. Why not put a number of rookies on PUP this year, if you could give them a six-week waiver where they're not on the 53-man? .. Why not put some raw rook on PUP that is too skinny or too fat (Maybe Arkin can get stronger in six weeks since he's a little behind in strength development) and you want them to work with Mike Woicik in the meantime and you want to develop during the season but who you don't want on your 53 immediately? Do NFL doctors come around and make sure you are injured etc.

This is one for the mysterious AdamJT13. Maybe I have found a loophole and we can get Danny White back on the team ...

They have to not be able to pass their initial physical. If they can't pass, they go on PUP or NFI, which is basically the same thing. There's a thread elsewhere that mentions Carter and Forbath will go into the season on the NFI list, which means they won't count against the roster and are out six weeks until they can possibly start practicing.
 
igtmfo;4076582 said:
And Jerry, when asked about whether Choice was fighting for a roster spot:

Jerry, with contempt, said "YES."

I hope Choice makes it.

Hey everyone, have you seen Choice run down on punts or kickoffs? ... Is he so bad that he inspires contempt from the Cowboys front office? .. Is it that he hates to play special teams so much that he blows it off and avoids contact in all ways?, or is it that he is so pathetic on special teams, that he can't even be considered for development on special teams? .. Tashard is pretty stout in his attitude so I can't imagine why he can't be considered for special teams. Does he run off the field or something? Is he so weak that he can't hold down a lane? If he tackles someone does he have a connniption fit or go on IR? .. I don't understand why Tashard doesn't kick *** more on special teams.

I've never seen him run down on punts or kickoffs, because as far as I know he doesn't play special teams.
 
That is just flat out good stuff. Pure football and right as rain.

If rain is right, what is wrong?
 
Hostile;4076706 said:
That is just flat out good stuff. Pure football and right as rain.

If rain is right, what is wrong?

Hurricanes...

see what I did there?
 
I have seen Holley make at least 1 tackle on the kickoff coverage and he is always 1 off the first players arriving at the ball in coverage on punts as well as kickoffs.

I am not really advocating keeping him on the squad but he has consistently done good things on ST's.
 
FYI: broke up wall of text to make it easier to read:

Plus a few random observations. ... Please feel free to add your own philosophical analysis to the following, all you professors out there ...

- THE CLETIS GORDON EFFECT - E.g.: Vets that have knocked around teams and practice squads for a few years but have had a good camp with you and people are thinking "this guy is coming into his own" are usually jettisoned at cutdown in favor of draft picks. You go with potential over a guy that has been dropped from four teams and is already 25-26 years old. If they had potential to be a real contributor, somebody would have seen it by that point and kept them around and they would have worked their way into playing time. You are what you are. This year's "Cletis Gordon" unfortunately is Kenwin Cummings. Cummings leads the team in preseason tackles but doesn't really have a strong role on a 53-man unless injuries decimate us. Lemon has a "dimension" as Parcells would say - real stout in short yardage situations and might have a role.


- YOU KEEP DRAFT PICKS OVER UDFAs. Corollary of the above principle. UDFAs more likely to pass waivers and make it back to your practice squad, at the very least.

- THE BIG DUDES STICK ON THE 53 - Easier to find a Andrew Sendejo on the street than a Sam Young or Jeremy Parnell, longer to develop too so you play them close to the vest. Though there's nothing wrong with Sendejo. Bias towards big bodies, always has been and always will.

- I WISH WE COULD HAVE SEEN TANNER AND RADWAY TAKE SOME SNAPS WITH THE FIRST TEAM IN GAMES - Otherwise they may turn out to be like ReShard Lee, who looked like a killer vs. the training camp spares in fourth quarters of preseason - but wound up looking pedestrian with the big boys who could run 4.4s and 4.3s. ... Radway had an "ooh aah' moment on a little quick screen against the Vikings - where he gained 10 yards before you could blink. I thought, "Man, we can't cut him ..." But yet again, this was against a second or third defense where you can't get much perspective.

- HOLLEY HAS NO SPECIAL TEAMS TACKLES THIS PRESEASON (per nfl.com) - He's not as good as Sam Hurd was on special teams, who was in on almost double the tackles Holley was last year. Unless I'm not noticing and Holley's a gunner? or good blocker on runbacks? - and not supposed to be making tackles I mean (Holley had 8 solo, three assisted tackles last year, pretty good no doubt). But he doesn't make the team purely as a receiver because of the "Cletis Gordon" syndrome. Great guy it seems. I'm just tired of people saying what a special teams stud he is - he's pretty good, but not worth keeping over a young fifth cornerback like Butler or something because he's just so great on STs.

- VESTED VETS ON ROSTER WEEK ONE get guaranteed money the whole season. (A guy can only do this only once in a career.) Complicates signing a veteran kicker. (Vested = 4 or more seasons in league.) I'm guessing this is in the new CBA (?) ... I had hoped a vet blocking TE could be brought in it but would need to be a youngish guy you can cut when Bennett improves. Same goes for a "name" WR that's cut and brought in that's better than Manny Johnson now, but might not be better than Radway in November.

- BUYER'S MARKET FOR TRADES. Players are worth least in trade at cutdown time of any time. You might get a sixth pick for Choice now, but he might bring a fourth when some contending team's No. 1 back goes down before trade deadline. Or maybe even a 1st, a 3rd and flip your 6th with their 7th (sorry Jerry!). So keep Choice around and exact a pound a flesh at trade deadline. Remember McQuistan was sent to Miami for nothing this time last year? Wow.

- SURPRISING GUYS ON PRACTICE SQUAD. AOA qualifies this season again, but a not a guy like Brandon Williams, who was on IR two years ago which counts toward an "accrued" season, best I can figure. As soon as I say this, I will be wrong and AdamJT will correct me. By the way, I think Adam is in the Cowboys front office, but I don't want to out him, because I don't want the Jones' to know that he fooling around on Cowboys' message boards when he should be working! I want him posting here with the real, true and ought.

- WAS BRUCE CARTER PLACED ON THE "PUP" LIST BEFORE TRAINING CAMP?

If so, he doesn't count toward the 53, as long as he doesn't practice in the next few weeks, but can chill for six weeks of the reg season before coming back. Inquiring minds want to know ....

Sorry if a few above were obvious. Thanks everyone ...
 
Really great post.

As for Holley, my sense is that he's proven his special teams worth in real games in the past, so if he's down in that area in preseason (not my impression, but maybe true) it doesn't matter all that much. I think he had more to prove as an occasional WR (and I think he did pretty well there).
 
James Harrison was cut 4 times by 2 different teams and even played in NFL Europe. Sometimes it takes guys a few years. James Farrior said that early on Harrison had no idea what was going on and would quit on plays and asked not to go in if he was confused. He has done pretty good. Cummings IMO will be on the 53.
 
Yuma Cactus;4076735 said:
James Harrison was cut 4 times by 2 different teams and even played in NFL Europe. Sometimes it takes guys a few years. James Farrior said that early on Harrison had no idea what was going on and would quit on plays and asked not to go in if he was confused. He has done pretty good. Cummings IMO will be on the 53.

exceptions to the rule doesn't mean the rule has no validity. At the end of the day if a team has to make a choice between a 4 year vet from 4 different teams, and a young player recently drafted or a UDFA, the team will 9 out of 10 times choose the younger player.
 
Yuma Cactus;4076735 said:
James Harrison was cut 4 times by 2 different teams and even played in NFL Europe. Sometimes it takes guys a few years. James Farrior said that early on Harrison had no idea what was going on and would quit on plays and asked not to go in if he was confused. He has done pretty good. Cummings IMO will be on the 53.

So you think Cummings has Harrison potential, good to know.
 
Yuma Cactus;4076735 said:
James Harrison was cut 4 times by 2 different teams and even played in NFL Europe. Sometimes it takes guys a few years. James Farrior said that early on Harrison had no idea what was going on and would quit on plays and asked not to go in if he was confused. He has done pretty good. Cummings IMO will be on the 53.


And James Harrison is a walking, talking example of why NFL PED testing is a joke if you have a team willing to break the rules and notify players well in advance of their supposed "random" test.
 
Not trying to say Cummings is another Harrison, just that some guys take awhile for the light to come on and seems to me Kentwan's light is at least brightening. I believe that the RHG will keep the best players if not too cost prohibative.
 
Excellent read!:bow:

Statistically, the more young players that you keep, the better your chances of "hitting" on some good to great ones.
 

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