Talkin cowboys 1/16

[jazzcat22]

Towards the end of his career, Brett Favre alternated good seasons and bad seasons.

Good passes and bad passes....

 

[noshame]

the obvious miss here is last season he wasn't right until well ever.
he couldn't work his core for risk of making his back worse during the season.
he never had an off-season workout period.

the good news is this was a very early surgery and he if he doesn't have an off-season workout period he is probably done.

I think we can all agree Romo had much more than a cyst removed, with a second surgery, I think you had better have a solid back-up plan in order, although as good as Orton did with virtually no time in the offense we may be okay. The thing with Ware, once a edge rusher loses that 1/10 of a second burst that makes him great, it doesn't come back.

 

[BigStar]

No offense but you are letting your personal agenda create dumb posts.

Rod likes what he likes. He didn't like Sharrif and he likes Ware.
Agree or disagree all you want but he's not worried about changing jobs.

In fact if Dallas hadn't blocked him he would already be in Tampa with his buddy Lovie.

Rod can coach DL for anyone at anytime. There isn't a comparable guy.

No offense but you are letting your personal agenda create dumb posts.

 

[jterrell]

I think we can all agree Romo had much more than a cyst removed, with a second surgery, I think you had better have a solid back-up plan in order, although as good as Orton did with virtually no time in the offense we may be okay. The thing with Ware, once a edge rusher loses that 1/10 of a second burst that makes him great, it doesn't come back.

was never any doubt they were down-playing the back.
but he did make it through the vast majority of the season and put up great numbers so its effect was handled through out the season like a champ.
if you guarantee me 10 more seasons of qb production just like last year i sign up in a heartbeat.
little indication he's done yet though i do bring 3 QBs to camp that can play football and I do get and keep Orton ready.

ware wasn't some good DE with a single season or two at his peak.
he has historically dominant production. like best of forever.
when a guy has 6.5 sacks as his fall through the floor number you can basically stop worrying.
charles haley had far worse back issues and managed a couple very good seasons still.

anyone writing off ware is being silly.

he does need to work with dallas on his contract but his talent and ability is still in the top 10 at DE in the entire league if not top 5.
however badly he was injured he played the run very well week 16 and was a big reason we only gave up 25 points to an offense that had been roasting the league with width plays to mccoy, desean and others.

fans are overly dramatic and overly reactionary.
peyton was injured far worse than romo 2 years ago and any number of guys have bopunced back form far worse than Ware is dealing with and they all started with less.

ware is arguably the games 3rd best ever pass rusher behind only reggie white and bruce smith.

 

[xwalker]

What do you do with Ware if he refuses a pay cut?

I think a team has to be prepared to cut a player before they ask him to take a pay cut.

 

[xwalker]

The price of top FA DL was considerably lower than JJ forecasted and sunk all the money in Spencer (again). Great research on his part...lazy lazy family.

They had to make the franchise tag decision before free agency started. How do you research the market? I guess that people that research the stock market always know what it will do in the future.

 

[BigStar]

They had to make the franchise tag decision before free agency started. How do you research the market? I guess that people that research the stock market always know what it will do in the future.

So that makes it ok to use the franchise tag on the same player 2 years in a row (increased the value) with no youth or developement behind them? He should've been dealt with one way or another beforehand, not holding the team hostage @ 11 mil/season to compensate for laziness/having no plan.

 

[jterrell]

Rod wants rooks over veterans? First coach I know of that doesn't prefer vets....my point was who cares what Rod wants, he's not the "gm" who should understand it is time to move on bc of salary, age, downgraded production/expectiations, etc. Of course any coach would take the vet, too bad it's not for the good of the team in rebuilding the talent on the line, stickin with mediocrity at best.

What you posted was that he was he was protecting his back side.
Which is mindless drivel and excuse making for him not buying into your agenda.

As to what coaches want, I'd bet most would take Clowney over 1 or both their current DE starters.

Coaches certainly want talent.
But Rod could care less about credit or protection.
He needs and desires neither.
He wants production.

He could get a coordinator job in the blink of an eye if he truly wanted one and if we 1-15 next year he still can.

It is a long off-season and something tells me we'll find out who Rod likes and doesn't including from this draft class.

 

[BigStar]

What you posted was that he was he was protecting his back side.
Which is mindless drivel and excuse making for him not buying into your agenda.

As to what coaches want, I'd bet most would take Clowney over 1 or both their current DE starters.

Coaches certainly want talent.
But Rod could care less about credit or protection.
He needs and desires neither.
He wants production.

He could get a coordinator job in the blink of an eye if he truly wanted one and if we 1-15 next year he still can.

It is a long off-season and something tells me we'll find out who Rod likes and doesn't including from this draft class.

So the DL coach is not looking out for his position as coach by preferring to rely on vets (the 1 left @ 12 mil a season) as opposed to goin with youth/unknowns? I said he wasn't lazy, he was looking out for his sole position as DL coach, not for rebuilding the youth on D. If you got offended enough to not catch that, I apologize for diverting my point. I wasn't speaking of his job security, I was speaking of the performance of his positon (DL) going with rooks? I thought that was clear.

 

[xwalker]

So that makes it ok to use the franchise tag on the same player 2 years in a row (increased the value) with no youth or developement behind them? He should've been dealt with one way or another beforehand, not holding the team hostage @ 11 mil/season to compensate for laziness/having no plan.

You're changing the axiom. Your initial statement was that they missed the market value of free agents. Now you're changing the issue to a lack of players not already being on the roster to replace Spencer.

 

[jterrell]

I think a team has to be prepared to cut a player before they ask him to take a pay cut.

Yup, have to be prepared for all scenarios and responses from the agent.

Doubt Ware or the Cowboys want to play chicken so it's just about being honest with the agent and Ware.

Dallas can create whatever line sit wants int he sand as can the agent and they can negotiate off those.
Or the line can be such that it is not doable and you punt(cut Ware).

But Dallas also has to have a plan for that scenario beyond making the move.
And scary to enter FA and Draft with that big a hole at RDE in a 4-3 defense.
How much risk can they stomach?
How much future money they prepared to eat to keep him?

Most interesting off-season decision if not the hardest.

 

[BigStar]

You're changing the axiom. Your initial statement was that they missed the market value of free agents. Now you're changing the issue to a lack of players not already being on the roster to replace Spencer.

Naw it's both

 

[jterrell]

So the DL coach is not looking out for his position as coach by preferring to rely on vets (the 1 left @ 12 mil a season) as opposed to goin with youth/unknowns? I said he wasn't lazy, he was looking out for his sole position as DL coach, not for rebuilding the youth on D. If you got offended enough to not catch that, I apologize for diverting my point. I wasn't speaking of his job security, I was speaking of the performance of his positon (DL) going with rooks? I thought that was clear.

ROFL.
Just quit while you are behind. What you actually said is in the thread, if it confuses you read it again.

Marinelli wants talent. He could care less about backside covering.

 

[BigStar]

ROFL.
Just quit while you are behind. What you actually said is in the thread, if it confuses you read it again.

Marinelli wants talent. He could care less about backside covering.

I'll use short abrupt sentences next time. Rod would prefer a declining vet with SOME talent over an unknown because every coach in the league doesn't want to start from scratch. That is why it isn't their call? Politically correct enough? Re-read and tell me how it's any differnt from my original post?

 

[xwalker]

I'll use short abrupt sentences next time. Rod would prefer a declining vet with SOME talent over an unknown because every coach in the league doesn't want to start from scratch. That is why it isn't their call? Politically correct enough? Re-read and tell me how it's any differnt from my original post?

I think I agree...

I think that you are saying that position coaches are never in favor of cutting a player due to the salary cap that would otherwise be retained. Basically any DL coach would want Ware over the 8th or 9th player on the DL. It's not as if they're asking him to decide between Ware and signing Melton as a free agent.

I think you're saying that Big Picture decisions like the Salary Cap can't be made by a position coach, because he would be biased towards his position group.

 

[BigStar]

I think I agree...

I think that you are saying that position coaches are never in favor of cutting a player due to the salary cap that would otherwise be retained. Basically any DL coach would want Ware over the 8th or 9th player on the DL. It's not as if they're asking him to decide between Ware and signing Melton as a free agent.

I think you're saying that Big Picture decisions like the Salary Cap can't be made by a position coach, because he would be biased towards his position group.

Yes homey, wasn't calling Rod some lazy rat. It is natural for coaches to want to retain any talent they are comfortable they could maximize. The hyperbole was used to show that JJ is almost using Rod's opinion as a way to justifiy his GM moves/lack of, etc. Sorry to get spaz on ya.

 

[jterrell]

I think I agree...

I think that you are saying that position coaches are never in favor of cutting a player due to the salary cap that would otherwise be retained. Basically any DL coach would want Ware over the 8th or 9th player on the DL. It's not as if they're asking him to decide between Ware and signing Melton as a free agent.

I think you're saying that Big Picture decisions like the Salary Cap can't be made by a position coach, because he would be biased towards his position group.

And if it had been stated as you put it and not as ---Not saying Marinelli is lazy; he is just covering himself.... we could carry on a realistic discussion of a valid point.

Counterpoint being, Rod is being asked to weigh Ware based on his expected production next year not his salary cap value.
Nothing suggests Rod IS making any final cap decisions. If he was I can bet we'd get Jason Hatcher back.
But his take is a part of information gathering for whomever does make that salary cap decision and does hold the negotiation with Ware's agent.

In short Rod wants Ware back because he believes he can play.
He had no problem cutting like 5 other vet DL... because they couldn't play.

People who want Ware gone are going to disagree with Rod but trying to label his thoughts anything other than being in the best interest of the team is a giant leap.

 

[BigStar]

And if it had been stated as you put it and not as ---Not saying Marinelli is lazy; he is just covering himself.... we could carry on a realistic discussion of a valid point.

Counterpoint being, Rod is being asked to weigh Ware based on his expected production next year not his salary cap value.
Nothing suggests Rod IS making any final cap decisions. If he was I can bet we'd get Jason Hatcher back.
But his take is a part of information gathering for whomever does make that salary cap decision and does hold the negotiation with Ware's agent.

In short Rod wants Ware back because he believes he can play.
He had no problem cutting like 5 other vet DL... because they couldn't play.

People who want Ware gone are going to disagree with Rod but trying to label his thoughts anything other than being in the best interest of the team is a giant leap.

But wouldn't it only be natural for a DL coach to be concerned about the development/talent of his primary focus as opposed to the whole team? His perspective would be naturally biased because he is concerned about the production, etc. for the upcoming season as catered to mainly the DL position or the D. Doesn't mean it's bad (DL coaches SHOULD push hard for that unit), he wasn't hired to be gm/coach and was left hanging badly last year becuase of injuries (outside of Rat). I totally understand his position, but think it is counterproductive when looking at realistic options to rebuilding the DL. Good back n forth btw. I didn't intend for "covering his hide" to mean his job security (specifically though it is somewhat tied in) but moreso towards the production of his respective position. He had all youngins and no names last year and the team needs to cut the last peice of "talent" he has to work with. Terrible position to be in as a coach tbh.

 

[jterrell]

But wouldn't it only be natural for a DL coach to be concerned about the development/talent of his primary focus as opposed to the whole team? His perspective would be naturally biased because he is concerned about the production, etc. for the upcoming season as catered to mainly the DL position or the D. Doesn't mean it's bad (DL coaches SHOULD push hard for that unit), he wasn't hired to be gm/coach and was left hanging badly last year becuase of injuries (outside of Rat). I totally understand his position, but think it is counterproductive when looking at realistic options to rebuilding the DL. Good back n forth btw. I didn't intend for "covering his hide" to mean his job security (specifically though it is somewhat tied in) but moreso towards the production of his respective position. He had all youngins and no names last year and the team needs to cut the last peice of "talent" he has to work with. Terrible position to be in as a coach tbh.

Last year in the war room with Sharif Floyd staring him in the face Marinelli said, "I'd pass."

I think it fair to say he wants what he wants and is not forsaking the team roster or being greedy to benefit merely his positional group.

Again, you are more than entitled to disagree with him. But it is fair to say he's far more qualified to decide the fate of a DL than you so don't expect us to be won over based on your countering opinions.

Releasing Ware saves a decent amount of future money to be sure. How much is hard to say given his replacement is UNKNOWN.
And whatever happens with Ware is it also clear we need a back up WDE.

So releasing Ware is not some cure all or panacea.
In fact it just creates one more hole on a team full of them.

 

[BigStar]

Last year in the war room with Sharif Floyd staring him in the face Marinelli said, "I'd pass."

I think it fair to say he wants what he wants and is not forsaking the team roster or being greedy to benefit merely his positional group.

Again, you are more than entitled to disagree with him. But it is fair to say he's far more qualified to decide the fate of a DL than you so don't expect us to be won over based on your countering opinions.

Releasing Ware saves a decent amount of future money to be sure. How much is hard to say given his replacement is UNKNOWN.
And whatever happens with Ware is it also clear we need a back up WDE.

So releasing Ware is not some cure all or panacea.
In fact it just creates one more hole on a team full of them.

Or there are way too many holes to justify holding on to one of the top salaries on the team when the pay doesn't match production. Cut all the grey on D possible. Cut Ware and let Spencer and Hatch at least test the market. Lee is the only "talent/playmaker" on this D and he can't stay healthy. This team was terrible on DL and needs all th resources available to pick up youth or to invest in other areas of need. Rod also passed expecting a healthy Ware, Spencer, Rat....vets.