Team being held hostage again, Sean Lee over again

[kskboys]

We've taken a lot of OL's in the mid rounds over the years, but it's hit and miss. Before Doug Free, it was mostly miss.

Since 2010, we've drafted Sam Young (6th), David Arkin (4th), Bill Nagy (7th), Chaz Green (3rd), Laurence Gibson (7th), Connor McGovern (3rd) and Tyler Biadasz (4th). I can't say I know for sure we got any of those right to the point where we don't need to spend first- or second-rounders on the OL. That's why we spent three firsts and a second on starters in that same time period.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try for players like McGovern and Biadasz to fill those starting roles, but the reality with any position is that most of the time it's going to be the first- and second-rounders who stick.

That might sound like I'm advocating drafting OL early, but I'm not. This year, I'm advocating using those early picks on defense and not truly worrying about the OL until next year. Yes, we can pick OL in the mid-round, but our expectations shouldn't be too high with those picks.

It's also one of the reasons I want go defense-heavy in the draft and not worry about the line. The hit percentages are not high and go down as the draft progresses, so there's a better chance of us getting what we need if saturate that side of the ball.

The offense is our strength even if we don't add anyone on that side of the ball. Our defense is terrible and needs all the help it can get.

You missed "big and nasty".

We keep taking ballet dancers. What we should be doing is taking guys who at the very least anchor well, and then find out if they can move well enough to be a starter. Instead, we take guys w/ good feet who have no anchor and so get pushed around. It is not working.

Not on the OLine. It's common for teams to fill their OLine w/ 2-5 round picks. Except that we're too busy taking LB's and stiff DB's in the mid rounds, guys who are never going to make it. RR is most likely the next one who won't contribute. Too stiff.

 

[Cowboyny]

Yes, but there's been reports (hate to use that but that's all we have) that Smith's neck problem has been bothering him the last few years, surgery may have solved or greatly reduced that problem. Collins had surgery for a hip injury, very possible the surgery fixed that and he'll be "good to go".

It's all supposition, just hoping for the best...

We don't have their medical info, but surgeries to the neck and the hip aren't minor.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

We don't have their medical info, but surgeries to the neck and the hip aren't minor.

All kinds of definitions of "minor". Getting a wart removed is "surgery", hardly "major" surgery.

But you do know that surgeries can be completely recovered from, I had a biceps tendon torn off, after surgery and rehab, when I asked the doctor what I could do, and he said "whatever you want'. I've gone back to my pre-surgery weight training with the same weights, no problems.

Just because a player has surgery doesn't mean they can't return to pre-injury ability, or so close to it that it doesn't mean he's not a very effective player.

Don't be such a negative Nancy, chin up!

 

[gimmesix]

One thing to keep in mind with the mid round OL picks is that all of those guys except for Biadasz were taken with Jason Garrett at the helm. I’m not just beating up on Garrett here but one thing you can say about his time as the Dallas HC is that his offense never dealt well with OL injuries. We all remember the Chaz Green debacle in Atlanta as the coaches seemed helpless to do anything to assist the struggling LT in that game.

There were mercifully very few OL injuries in Jason’s time in Dallas but when there were, it was a big issue. The OL just didn’t do well with anything less than prime blockers on that unit.

I don’t think those coaching staffs were really able to help raise the play of the guys as a unit. To assist the weak areas form a plan to help the unit as a whole.

I’m not sure it is really fair to judge the guys that came and went on the Dallas OL, although I know not all of them were capable of starting.

Think of this past season and the rash of injuries along the OL. Probably the biggest surprise to me this season was just how well Philbin and the coaches took what was by all accounts very subprime OL talent and got that unit to perform pretty admirably. They weren’t great for sure but they all did decent under the circumstances.

Think of it: a second year UDFA tackle/guard replacing all pro Tyron Smith. A rookie UDFA that was embarrassed in the Senior bowl playing all year in place of budding star La’el Collins. A low tier free agent swing tackle and a low tier free agent center replacing all pro Travis Frederick. And then a 4th round rookie replacing that free agent at center.

All of that mess would have had the previous coaching staff curled up in the fetal position. It would have been an unmitigated disaster. Instead, Philbin had those guys playing decently enough where had Dak not gotten hurt, I think the offense would have stayed among the top 10 units.

Philbin and McCarthy clearly can get young, less than elite OL players to play pretty well as part of their unit... and that was without any offseason and very little training camp. I’m not so sure that they couldn’t get a 3rd or 4th round rookie with some talent to be part of a good OL that plays well... assuming there aren’t a dozen season ending injuries there.

It is a continuation of what they did with this system in Green Bay. They never had a ton of high draft picks on the line there. They just would plug guys in, coach them up and have one of the most efficient lines in football

Anyway, my point is that the staff and how they implement those guys might make a big difference when bringing in a guy like Biadasz or a 3rd/4th round OL this year. Maybe it wasn’t the front offices evaluation of mid-round OL that was the problem.

Maybe. The only player I think we can give complete credit to Philbin for is Steele. McKnight played pretty good when we stuck him into the lineup last year as a rookie. McGovern was a guy we reportedly valued in the second round.

Biadasz appears to have been a good fourth-round pick, but I think it's easier to find centers in the later rounds than guards and tackles, because centers don't have the same value.

I'm not saying the team should forsake trying to find OL in the mid-rounds. I didn't have a problem with the McGovern pick even though I wanted defense that year. I just favor attacking the defense rather than worrying right now about an offensive line that has better options than the defense does.

Until we're told otherwise, our starting line is Smith, Williams/McGovern, Biadasz, Martin and Collins. (I think we're also likely to re-sign Erving and possibly Looney, but I don't think Looney is necessary because McGovern can play center.)

If Smith's body fails him completely, then I believe Collins should be moved over to left tackle as the permanent fix and right tackle should be between McKnight and Williams. However, if we don't want to move Williams and McKnight is not good enough, then we could move Martin and start Williams, Biadasz and McGovern on the inside.

In other words, I believe we've got six starting-quality OL, possibly seven (because I believe McKnight is a solid guard/right tackle option) for five spots. Do we have six Pro Bowl offensive linemen? No. But we can get back to trying for that next year after we've addressed a defense in much, much worse shape.

 

[gimmesix]

When we had one of the best, we were in the playoffs, not picking in the top 10 of the draft.

It's not exactly fair to compare last season to any where we were remotely close to healthy. It more resembled 2015, when we had Frederick, Free, Martin, Leary, Smith and Collins. Where exactly did that get us? 4-12.

In 2020, we practically did not have any of those players, but still finished better overall. So I don't think we can exactly blame it on the line.

In 2015, our primary problem was that we lost our quarterback and had no one to replace him. In 2020, our primary problem was that we lost our quarterback and while we had a better replacement, we had a historically bad defense.

 

[Future]

Wow.

The strength became a problem again before we were able to build the perfect roster everywhere else?

Amazing how that goes.

At some point there can't be premium picks spent everywhere. Coaching has to overcome those weaknesses.

Too many teams are getting away with much less on the OL.

You can say this about every position group across the league. There's nothing inherently wrong in drafting OL talent early as a priority, especially when the hit rate for OL plummets later in the draft.

And the whole idea of the Cowboys spending all kinds of first-round picks on the OL is a myth and exaggerated. They took 3 HoF-calibre players with those picks and, haven't drafted one in 6 years. You draft that well with those picks, nobody should care if that's the only position group they ever take in the first.

 

[Future]

It's not exactly fair to compare last season to any where we were remotely close to healthy. It more resembled 2015, when we had Frederick, Free, Martin, Leary, Smith and Collins. Where exactly did that get us? 4-12.

In 2020, we practically did not have any of those players, but still finished better overall. So I don't think we can exactly blame it on the line.

In 2015, our primary problem was that we lost our quarterback and had no one to replace him. In 2020, our primary problem was that we lost our quarterback and while we had a better replacement, we had a historically bad defense.

Did you forget how terrible the defense was in 2015? Did you also forget that they were a top-5 rushing offense despite the fact that they had incompetent QB play?

 

[Cowboyny]

It's not exactly fair to compare last season to any where we were remotely close to healthy. It more resembled 2015, when we had Frederick, Free, Martin, Leary, Smith and Collins. Where exactly did that get us? 4-12.

In 2020, we practically did not have any of those players, but still finished better overall. So I don't think we can exactly blame it on the line.

In 2015, our primary problem was that we lost our quarterback and had no one to replace him. In 2020, our primary problem was that we lost our quarterback and while we had a better replacement, we had a historically bad defense.

When our line has been good, we have been in the postseason, no matter how poor our defense or special teams has been. When they struggle, we see average results and outside looking in at the postseason.

I hate when fans say we were good last year with our backups, who did we beat even with Dak early on in the season? Line even at full strength isn't an elite unit and it's getting worse as these players start showing age.

 

[Cowboyny]

Maybe. The only player I think we can give complete credit to Philbin for is Steele. McKnight played pretty good when we stuck him into the lineup last year as a rookie. McGovern was a guy we reportedly valued in the second round.

Biadasz appears to have been a good fourth-round pick, but I think it's easier to find centers in the later rounds than guards and tackles, because centers don't have the same value.

I'm not saying the team should forsake trying to find OL in the mid-rounds. I didn't have a problem with the McGovern pick even though I wanted defense that year. I just favor attacking the defense rather than worrying right now about an offensive line that has better options than the defense does.

Until we're told otherwise, our starting line is Smith, Williams/McGovern, Biadasz, Martin and Collins. (I think we're also likely to re-sign Erving and possibly Looney, but I don't think Looney is necessary because McGovern can play center.)

If Smith's body fails him completely, then I believe Collins should be moved over to left tackle as the permanent fix and right tackle should be between McKnight and Williams. However, if we don't want to move Williams and McKnight is not good enough, then we could move Martin and start Williams, Biadasz and McGovern on the inside.

In other words, I believe we've got six starting-quality OL, possibly seven (because I believe McKnight is a solid guard/right tackle option) for five spots. Do we have six Pro Bowl offensive linemen? No. But we can get back to trying for that next year after we've addressed a defense in much, much worse shape.

Steel/Knight cannot hold up against legit competition.

 

[gimmesix]

Did you forget how terrible the defense was in 2015? Did you also forget that they were a top-5 rushing offense despite the fact that they had incompetent QB play?

And yet we were 4-12. The defense was bad last year. We had a good running back. And we were 6-10. Both years we lost our starting quarterback. We had a more competent one this year. That was the main difference.

We need our line back, but I don't think we can just blame how bad the line was for being 6-10 when we were 4-12 with a good one.

 

[gimmesix]

When our line has been good, we have been in the postseason, no matter how poor our defense or special teams has been. When they struggle, we see average results and outside looking in at the postseason.

I hate when fans say we were good last year with our backups, who did we beat even with Dak early on in the season? Line even at full strength isn't an elite unit and it's getting worse as these players start showing age.

Our line was quite good in 2015, and again, we were 4-12. The primary similarities in that season and last year's was the loss of our starting quarterback.

We had an inordinate amount of OL injuries last year, but saying we make the postseason when the line is good and don't when the line is bad is disproven by 2015.

 

[gimmesix]

Steel/Knight cannot hold up against legit competition.

I disagree with you on Knight. His play at right tackle has been solid, as has his play when he's been at guard. He is not a left tackle, which he was forced to play last year. Now, we haven't seen him in extended play at RT, so his weaknesses might get exposed, but honestly, he's sixth in line when it comes to starting IMO.

 

[Chuck 54]

A few years ago, when Sean Lee was able to play, he was still one of the best linebackers in the entire league. Problem is he just couldn't be trusted to stay healthy for a full 16 game season. This ultimately led to the team using a 1st rd pick at the position as they just couldn't count on Lee any longer.

I see the same problem now with Tyron Smith. Just 30 years old, but the last time he played a full season was 2015. Still good when healthy, but a major drop-off when out of action. We saw what happens when a team loses their starting Left Tackle in the Super Bowl, just cannot compete.

We are well aware of our needs on the defensive side of the football, but if our line struggles, it won't matter how good we are on the other side of the football. It's not just Tyron either, Frederick has retired, Martin is starting to show his age and Collins is coming off of major hip surgery. Time is now to reload along the OL.

1. We don’t really need to draft an OT. We have both quality tackles at prime ages for OTs. We now have also tested Martin at OT and know that we can probably kick him out to either tackle spot with good results, so wasting a high pick on an OT who isn’t going to start right away is foolish. We also got invaluable starting experience with our two young tackles this year, so why draft a developmental OT?
2. If anything, we draft a 3rd day OG/C or sign a vet for depth in case Martin is moved to tackle again.
3. The majority of free agency and the draft needs to be spent on defense. My only exception in round 1 would be Pitts. The only other offensive players I’d consider the first two days would be a elite speed WR or a guy like Nico Collins with elite size/speed/ball skills to develop as our replacement for Gallup.
4. Free agency and CB speed in the draft will determine whether we look at a top CB early or a mid-round corner.
   
5. Unless we fall in love with Surtain, I could see us targeting Pitts at 10 or trying to move down in round 1 for Horn or Moerig (S). I don’t see us using a top 10 pick on guys with 1 year of film who opted out this season.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

PART OF ME wouldn't mind Pitts at 10. But that wouldnt help the defense.

me too....but if we just had a half way decent defense. a defense that perhaps ranked 20th last year...I would say, just go for him. but our defense sucks so baaaddd....

 

[Cowboyny]

1. We don’t really need to draft an OT. We have both quality tackles at prime ages for OTs. We now have also tested Martin at OT and know that we can probably kick him out to either tackle spot with good results, so wasting a high pick on an OT who isn’t going to start right away is foolish. We also got invaluable starting experience with our two young tackles this year, so why draft a developmental OT?
2. If anything, we draft a 3rd day OG/C or sign a vet for depth in case Martin is moved to tackle again.
3. The majority of free agency and the draft needs to be spent on defense. My only exception in round 1 would be Pitts. The only other offensive players I’d consider the first two days would be a elite speed WR or a guy like Nico Collins with elite size/speed/ball skills to develop as our replacement for Gallup.
4. Free agency and CB speed in the draft will determine whether we look at a top CB early or a mid-round corner.
   
5. Unless we fall in love with Surtain, I could see us targeting Pitts at 10 or trying to move down in round 1 for Horn or Moerig (S). I don’t see us using a top 10 pick on guys with 1 year of film who opted out this season.

Team could shift around their line to make it work and have a rookie start day 1.

 

[Cowboyny]

I disagree with you on Knight. His play at right tackle has been solid, as has his play when he's been at guard. He is not a left tackle, which he was forced to play last year. Now, we haven't seen him in extended play at RT, so his weaknesses might get exposed, but honestly, he's sixth in line when it comes to starting IMO.

Knight was a Colombo favorite and fits best in a man blocking system. Think him as the #4 tackle, we are ok, but not as the swing guy. I really would like to see the team see if Connor Williams can play on the edge

 

[Cowboyny]

Our line was quite good in 2015, and again, we were 4-12. The primary similarities in that season and last year's was the loss of our starting quarterback.

We had an inordinate amount of OL injuries last year, but saying we make the postseason when the line is good and don't when the line is bad is disproven by 2015.

The years we had success was when our line stayed healthy and the offense was able to carry the team. For me, it’s all about fixing the trenches on both sides of the football.

 

[gimmesix]

The years we had success was when our line stayed healthy and the offense was able to carry the team. For me, it’s all about fixing the trenches on both sides of the football.

We have never progressed very far with the offense carrying the team. Some of that was Garrett's philosophy, but it's just also difficult to win with just one side of the ball being good.

The trench on the offensive side of the ball is not broken yet. The trench on the defensive side is a shambles.

Is Tyron near the end of his career? Probably. But worrying about that while the defense is burning down is not the way to victory. Even if the line ends up being LT Collins, LG Williams, C Biadasz, RG McGovern and RT Martin, it is still much better than anything we can stick out there on defense between the ends.

For me, drafting an OL early this year would be something Dallas should do only if it can't move and the OL is much better than a defensive selection. The first three rounds would be focused on defense otherwise.

 

[gimmesix]

Knight was a Colombo favorite and fits best in a man blocking system. Think him as the #4 tackle, we are ok, but not as the swing guy. I really would like to see the team see if Connor Williams can play on the edge

I'm not sure Dallas feels Williams can play on the edge. But because of all the injuries last year, it's hard to tell. I think by the time the Cowboys staff gained trust in McGovern, they needed him at RG either because of the need to play Martin at RT or because Martin was injured.

I think a lot of the concern over the offensive line is an overreaction to a really bizarre, rare occurrence last year. Our starting center retired, we lost both starting tackles, we lost the primary backup tackle, we lost a starting guard who probably was our third-best starting tackle and even our fifth-best tackle and both of our remaining centers were out at times for injury. Even if we drafted a first-round offensive tackle, we couldn't survive that amount of injuries to the line.

 

[Cowboyny]

I'm not sure Dallas feels Williams can play on the edge. But because of all the injuries last year, it's hard to tell. I think by the time the Cowboys staff gained trust in McGovern, they needed him at RG either because of the need to play Martin at RT or because Martin was injured.

I think a lot of the concern over the offensive line is an overreaction to a really bizarre, rare occurrence last year. Our starting center retired, we lost both starting tackles, we lost the primary backup tackle, we lost a starting guard who probably was our third-best starting tackle and even our fifth-best tackle and both of our remaining centers were out at times for injury. Even if we drafted a first-round offensive tackle, we couldn't survive that amount of injuries to the line.

I look more towards the division stacking their defensive lines and our inability to run the football with any consistency.