The 8 man in the box myth

[superonyx]

It seems that everytime our running game's lack of success this season is mentioned the typical response is that it's losing Romo and Dez as the reason due to every team stacking 8 or 9 in the box and shutting down our run game.

So doing a little internet searches I found the most recent data concerning just how often a RB faces 8 or more in the box on run plays.

Statically the average running back in all situations (goal line, short yardage ect) only faced 8 or more men in the box on 23% of his carries in 2013.

So then I found a stat that showed that with more than 1 WR or player split wide the defense only stacked the box on 12% of plays.

The players or teams with the highest percent of stacked boxes were teams that lined up in offensive formations which required the defense to have 8 in the box to match up. That year it was the 49ers who faced the most stacked boxes. And this was only because they played so much 1wr 2TE formations.

I would be very curious to see how often we have faced true 8 man boxes this season.
These percentages are so low that even the RB's who have faced the most stacked boxes is still a low percentage of their overall carries.

Hopefully some find this interesting and maybe think twice before assuming our running game troubles are to be blamed mostly on Romo and Dez being hurt. The boxes are not as stacked as we think on Monday morning. There is still meat left on the bone (couldn't resist).

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

Alex, I'll take "easy answer" for $200


Alex : teams stack 8 men in the box.

What is throw deep a few times per game and See if we can complete a pass or get PI call thereby spreading the defense?

(Sorry for essay answer Alex)

 

[CF74]

While these stats may be true teams don't have to double team Dez so there is an extra defender available to key on the run..

It seems a lot of times DB's were in our backfield making the stop on our RB's...

 

[Alexander]

Funny how if people say things enough times to themselves, they suddenly because cemented as truth, regardless if it is actually accurate.

Have teams been feasting on the lack of a passing/receiving threat? Sure. But they are not simply crowding the box each and every down daring us to beat them deep. They are actually playing very simple and honest.

But they are attacking our line in ways that they did not dare do last season because we were prepared and efficient with our blocking schemes.

It may just be me, but it looks like we adjusted our blocking schemes significantly from last year and run a lot more man versus zone.

Would be curious to see if this is the case. If so, it could explain some things.

 

[TonyRomo17]

It doesnt help that Garret/Linehan keep trying to run out of 12 personel even though they dont have a good ypc out of that formation

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Funny how if people say things enough times to themselves, they suddenly because cemented as truth, regardless if it is actually accurate.

Have teams been feasting on the lack of a passing/receiving threat? Sure. But they are not simply crowding the box each and every down daring us to beat them deep. They are actually playing very simple and honest.

But they are attacking our line in ways that they did not dare do last season because we were prepared and efficient with our blocking schemes.

It may just be me, but it looks like we adjusted our blocking schemes significantly from last year and run a lot more man versus zone.

Would be curious to see if this is the case. If so, it could explain some things.

Still looks like mostly zone blocking to me.

What the Patriots did was simple...double underneath. They would get zone coverage from a LB or a safety to help with doubling underneath so they could take Witten and Beasley out of the equation. Then play man and force whomever was going deep to beat them. It's not all the WR's fault as Weeden just doesn't have it to beat teams consistently with a deep pass, but it's not like the WR's are getting great separation either.

I didn't see a lot of 8 man in the box from the Patriots, but so many of our runs come on 1st down and it was obvious that the Patriots saw that coming. So, they could go into 3-4 or 4-3 alignments and the LB's and Safeties could cheat up on the run. It's not 8 in the box, but it's almost the same thing when they are cheating up on the play. The one time we do throw on first down...Weeden goes into shotgun giving it away we are passing. Could have been a good time to use a flee flicker, but that would take some ingenuity in our playcalling.

I think it's obvious that our running woes are playcalling oriented, a regression in our talent at RB oriented and a lack of deep threat oriented. I can see what Frederick is saying about the O-Line being 'almost there' and not quite hitting the lick, so they get some blame as well. But, I do think the O-Line has been the least of our problem. Cleveland has had excellent O-Lines for quite a while, but they don't have the playmakers and ironically...had Weeden as their QB for 2 seasons. Winning in the trenches isn't going to happen if you can't win outside the trenches.





YR

 

[Toruk_Makto]

You have lost Dez Bryant and Tony Romo from this offense. And it happened at the beginning of the season.

Trying to compare what we have done this year verses last is meaningless.

Teams are not doubling us outside so there are extra defenders closer to the ball. Is it an excuse for running the ball poorly? Yes. Is it also the truth? Yes.

 

[TrailBlazer]

New England didn't put 8 in the box at all

 

[jazzcat22]

Sometimes stats are just stats, and as usual can be used with the right wording to favor ones agenda.
But facts are facts...lose your QB, lose your top WR, which are both in the top 5 in the NFL, don't replace your RB, or your plan doesn't go as planned to replace your RB.

I'll go with the losing your top players on this one, AND stacking the box as they have been too.
So on this research, how long of a tome period and how many RB's / Teams used. And then what are those percentages against us this year, I bet they skew that bell curve quite a bit.

 

[jazzcat22]

New England didn't put 8 in the box at all

Right, they had 9 at times. That's what they were showing on ESPN or NFLN the other day.

 

[CATCH17]

Right, they had 9 at times. That's what they were showing on ESPN or NFLN the other day.

And there are so many simple pass plays out there that don't put the ball at risk that we could use but we would rather stubbornly cram it into a 8 and 9 man front over and over.

I don't understand what these coaches are getting paid for. Anyone could do the job they are doing right now.

 

[DFWJC]

It seems that everytime our running game's lack of success this season is mentioned the typical response is that it's losing Romo and Dez as the reason due to every team stacking 8 or 9 in the box and shutting down our run game.

So doing a little internet searches I found the most recent data concerning just how often a RB faces 8 or more in the box on run plays.

Statically the average running back in all situations (goal line, short yardage ect) only faced 8 or more men in the box on 23% of his carries in 2013.

So then I found a stat that showed that with more than 1 WR or player split wide the defense only stacked the box on 12% of plays.

The players or teams with the highest percent of stacked boxes were teams that lined up in offensive formations which required the defense to have 8 in the box to match up. That year it was the 49ers who faced the most stacked boxes. And this was only because they played so much 1wr 2TE formations.

I would be very curious to see how often we have faced true 8 man boxes this season.
These percentages are so low that even the RB's who have faced the most stacked boxes is still a low percentage of their overall carries.

Hopefully some find this interesting and maybe think twice before assuming our running game troubles are to be blamed mostly on Romo and Dez being hurt. The boxes are not as stacked as we think on Monday morning. There is still meat left on the bone (couldn't resist).

Still looking for your 2015 Dallas Cowboys specific stats.
Otherwise, the myth is that you included "myth" in your title.

 

[jazzcat22]

And there are so many simple pass plays out there that don't put the ball at risk that we could use but we would rather stubbornly cram it into a 8 and 9 man front over and over.

I don't understand what these coaches are getting paid for. Anyone could do the job they are doing right now.

I understand what you are saying. We rarely see a quick slant pass. That is almost always a first down. Seems since Dunbar went out, they abandoned his plays. I thought McFadden or Randle could be used there. If they insist on RBBC, then shouldn't they all be able to run those plays.
What about some crossing patterns. or Screens. sure those take a little time to develop. But the OL used to be able to block long enough and set those up.

Seems play calling went into a shell.

 

[Ken]

It is not just 8 man boxes that are a problem. It could be 6 if you havre 4 wide that is a problem. The key is the defense committing 1 more man to the box than the offense can block.....

 

[Kevinicus]

Still looks like mostly zone blocking to me.

What the Patriots did was simple...double underneath. They would get zone coverage from a LB or a safety to help with doubling underneath so they could take Witten and Beasley out of the equation. Then play man and force whomever was going deep to beat them. It's not all the WR's fault as Weeden just doesn't have it to beat teams consistently with a deep pass, but it's not like the WR's are getting great separation either.

I didn't see a lot of 8 man in the box from the Patriots, but so many of our runs come on 1st down and it was obvious that the Patriots saw that coming. So, they could go into 3-4 or 4-3 alignments and the LB's and Safeties could cheat up on the run. It's not 8 in the box, but it's almost the same thing when they are cheating up on the play. The one time we do throw on first down...Weeden goes into shotgun giving it away we are passing. Could have been a good time to use a flee flicker, but that would take some ingenuity in our playcalling.

I think it's obvious that our running woes are playcalling oriented, a regression in our talent at RB oriented and a lack of deep threat oriented. I can see what Frederick is saying about the O-Line being 'almost there' and not quite hitting the lick, so they get some blame as well. But, I do think the O-Line has been the least of our problem. Cleveland has had excellent O-Lines for quite a while, but they don't have the playmakers and ironically...had Weeden as their QB for 2 seasons. Winning in the trenches isn't going to happen if you can't win outside the trenches.



YR

The Patriots were all over the box all game long. Man up on the outside receivers, one safety back, everyone else all bunched up towards the middle.

 

[NoLuv4Jerry]

In other words...We are constantly in a run formation....INVITING a stacked box.

 

[JIGGYFLY]

Still looks like mostly zone blocking to me.

What the Patriots did was simple...double underneath. They would get zone coverage from a LB or a safety to help with doubling underneath so they could take Witten and Beasley out of the equation. Then play man and force whomever was going deep to beat them. It's not all the WR's fault as Weeden just doesn't have it to beat teams consistently with a deep pass, but it's not like the WR's are getting great separation either.

I didn't see a lot of 8 man in the box from the Patriots, but so many of our runs come on 1st down and it was obvious that the Patriots saw that coming. So, they could go into 3-4 or 4-3 alignments and the LB's and Safeties could cheat up on the run. It's not 8 in the box, but it's almost the same thing when they are cheating up on the play. The one time we do throw on first down...Weeden goes into shotgun giving it away we are passing. Could have been a good time to use a flee flicker, but that would take some ingenuity in our playcalling.

I think it's obvious that our running woes are playcalling oriented, a regression in our talent at RB oriented and a lack of deep threat oriented. I can see what Frederick is saying about the O-Line being 'almost there' and not quite hitting the lick, so they get some blame as well. But, I do think the O-Line has been the least of our problem. Cleveland has had excellent O-Lines for quite a while, but they don't have the playmakers and ironically...had Weeden as their QB for 2 seasons. Winning in the trenches isn't going to happen if you can't win outside the trenches.





YR

That sums it up nicely it's an all of the above problem, not just one thing.

 

[Kevinicus]

In other words...We are constantly in a run formation....INVITING a stacked box.

I dunno, sometimes I don't think it was stacked enough. Thankfully the coaches would motion outside guys in so that there would be more defenders in the area. Dunno what we'd do without them!

 

[superonyx]

Still looking for your 2015 Dallas Cowboys specific stats.
Otherwise, the myth is that you included "myth" in your title.

Thanks for your valuable input. Even if the numbers were 2015 Dallas Cowboys numbers it wouldn't convince some people. Maybe you are one of these people.

Think of it like this...with a normal formation of more than 1 player split wide the league average was 12% of 8 man in the box. Most teams fell into a range of 9-14%.
Even if team were on a unusual pace of stacking the box against us this season it would still only result in small percentage of overall run plays.

Sorry if this challenges your false assumptions.

 

[CyberB0b]

Right, they had 9 at times. That's what they were showing on ESPN or NFLN the other day.

No, they didn't.