The case for Restructuring Romo

Nightman

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Not necessarily it would not.
If they wanted to make that happen they could but they'd be paying a huge sum 2 years down the road. which would be fairly awful cap mgmt.

You bring up a wild hypothetical situation and then try to cast aside my answer as not sound business planning...got it

Romo just came off a MVP caliber season, injury free

Your genius planning is to intentionally take a 28m hit this year when we have a ton of needs, to avoid taking a worst case scenario 19m cap hit in 2017.

That is like having your tooth pulled to prevent getting a cavity.
 

Nightman

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No, you are confusing smart business decisions with poor ones.
Dallas locked itself into deals with players that replied upon scheduled restructures which means that falsely assigned certainty to those players.

The best advantage the NFL has over other sports is the ability to jettison players immediately with limited financial impact. Scheduled restructures kills that.

Ratliff was restructured down in 2013. The plan was to have him count ~5m on the cap in 2014. BUT they were scared off and so paid 8m for him that season.

Arguing we SAVE x amount when we were never gonna pay that base salary is just poor logic.

Now, Dallas has properly adjusted and we are seeing lots of 1 year deals and actually incentives. So the cap makes sense and we aren't tied to all these guys.
We can move to a new guy with zero additional cost in those situations.

And when you don't pre-ordain that you'll hit every trigger you can adjust and use them when most valuable.

Ratliff got hurt and then quit. Before that his contract was very fair for a Pro Bowl NT.
 

jterrell

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You bring up a wild hypothetical situation and then try to cast aside my answer as not sound business planning...got it

Romo just came off a MVP caliber season, injury free

Your genius planning is to intentionally take a 28m hit this year when we have a ton of needs, to avoid taking a worst case scenario 19m cap hit in 2017.

That is like having your tooth pulled to prevent getting a cavity.

I brought up a specific situation that very well could occur. Romo had off-season back surgery last year.
We gave him a day off each week last year. You (and others have made incorrect blanket statements) that this simply dispels --it is not always cheaper to cut someone; especially if you follow the logic of yearly restructures to reduce immediate cap hits.

Scheduled restructures are in totality stupid business. You basically guarantee a guys salary each year.
It is absurd at that blanket level. .

I already stated I had no issue restructuring Romo and one or two others. But the model is not good to use on a widespread basis.
Ratliff, Carr and others have shown us that.
Dallas is sufficiently hitched to the Romo wagon that it doesn't matter but for the vast majority of players it is simply a pointless gamble.

What's more Dallas agrees with me which is why they have largely stopped doing it.

This is no different than individuals who spend every cent they make each paycheck. Then when something unplanned happens it causes severe financial repercussions.
 

JoaquinFenix

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That was in regard to your claim that "you don't pay age," which is a good idea. But it has nothing to do with when the cap charges should hit the cap.




Again, you have to consider the cap being equal to 100.0 each year -- as if your cap number can never be greater than 100 percent of the cap. The actual dollar amount is meaningless -- whether the cap is $20 million or $200 million, you can use up to 100 percent of it. Would you rather take a $15 million cap hit when the cap is $20 million or $200 million? Obviously, the latter. It's the same thing to a lesser degree when actual contracts and cap numbers are involved -- it's always better to take any cap hit when the cap is higher, if you have a choice.



Those were just hypothetical examples to show how the percentages change, not showing the maximum advantage that could be gained. And that savings is PER YEAR, not over a four-year span -- the four-year cap was $600 million, remember? Those were AVERAGE percentages for the four years.




Like I said, if Carr is not worth the money, then the problem was signing him in the first place, not restructuring his contract in 2013. And to keep paying him more than he is worth is simply foolish. If the team thinks he's worth it, then they keep him and pay him. If not, they should cut him, regardless of the cap consequences. You DON'T compound the problem by paying him more than he's worth.




Neither one of those is bad! That's the point. You WANT to structure contracts that way. The only thing bad is signing players for more than they're worth -- or getting less from them than what you're paying or have paid them.



And that's incredibly stupid. The money he has already received is already going to hit the cap at some point. Why keep him and continue accumulating even MORE cap charges if he's not worth it?

Adam, given that you can rollover unused cap space into the following year, coupled with the fact that the cap is likely to increase every year, are you in favor of restructuring every contract to the fullest extent possible at every opportunity?
 

Nightman

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I brought up a specific situation that very well could occur. Romo had off-season back surgery last year.
We gave him a day off each week last year. You (and others have made incorrect blanket statements) that this simply dispels --it is not always cheaper to cut someone; especially if you follow the logic of yearly restructures to reduce immediate cap hits.

Scheduled restructures are in totality stupid business. You basically guarantee a guys salary each year.
It is absurd at that blanket level. .

I already stated I had no issue restructuring Romo and one or two others. But the model is not good to use on a widespread basis.
Ratliff, Carr and others have shown us that.
Dallas is sufficiently hitched to the Romo wagon that it doesn't matter but for the vast majority of players it is simply a pointless gamble.

What's more Dallas agrees with me which is why they have largely stopped doing it.

This is no different than individuals who spend every cent they make each paycheck. Then when something unplanned happens it causes severe financial repercussions.

Your entire premise is built on a repeated but false foundation.

Nothing about dead money requires throwing good money after bad.

It does not tie a team to a under-performing player at all.

If you need to find the rare instance when dead money creates a bigger hit than cutting a poor player to buttress your position have at it. Romo isn't the example but keep looking.

Blanket statements are always more fun to make. Now you have to go and search.
 

Nightman

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I brought up a specific situation that very well could occur. Romo had off-season back surgery last year.
We gave him a day off each week last year. You (and others have made incorrect blanket statements) that this simply dispels --it is not always cheaper to cut someone; especially if you follow the logic of yearly restructures to reduce immediate cap hits.


What's more Dallas agrees with me which is why they have largely stopped doing it.

This is no different than individuals who spend every cent they make each paycheck. Then when something unplanned happens it causes severe financial repercussions.

Except they haven't largely stopped. They just restructured their 2 largest contracts and created 23m in space to sign expensive players.
 

Hoofbite

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That was in regard to your claim that "you don't pay age," which is a good idea. But it has nothing to do with when the cap charges should hit the cap.

No, it does. Because if you pushes charges to later years and the end result is the exact same as paying for age. You have a high cap hit. That's not disputable. Restructuring increases the cap charge for later years, which is exactly the same as paying for age as far as the cap is concerned.

Again, you have to consider the cap being equal to 100.0 each year -- as if your cap number can never be greater than 100 percent of the cap. The actual dollar amount is meaningless -- whether the cap is $20 million or $200 million, you can use up to 100 percent of it. Would you rather take a $15 million cap hit when the cap is $20 million or $200 million? Obviously, the latter. It's the same thing to a lesser degree when actual contracts and cap numbers are involved -- it's always better to take any cap hit when the cap is higher, if you have a choice.

But the cap is not equal to 100.0 every year. Why even pretend that it is?

Those were just hypothetical examples to show how the percentages change, not showing the maximum advantage that could be gained. And that savings is PER YEAR, not over a four-year span -- the four-year cap was $600 million, remember? Those were AVERAGE percentages for the four years.

You can't average percentages with different denominators and pretend the percentages have equal value.

Like I said, if Carr is not worth the money, then the problem was signing him in the first place, not restructuring his contract in 2013. And to keep paying him more than he is worth is simply foolish. If the team thinks he's worth it, then they keep him and pay him. If not, they should cut him, regardless of the cap consequences. You DON'T compound the problem by paying him more than he's worth.

Yes, the problem is signing him the first place. Guess what, nobody has a crystal ball. He was a top CB free agent at the time. If everyone could have accurately predicted he would be half the player he signed for, he wouldn't have signed for the contract he received.

As I have said time and time again, any team who can correctly make these decisions to avoid the bad signings is in a position to never have to restructure because they are so far ahead of the game to begin with. Bad signings happen to everyone. Nobody can predict the future. Saying, "they shouldn't have done that", is a cop out plain and simple because it assumes that the team had the information that is available right now 3 or 4 years ago.

Neither one of those is bad! That's the point. You WANT to structure contracts that way. The only thing bad is signing players for more than they're worth -- or getting less from them than what you're paying or have paid them.

And nobody actually knows what a player is worth 5 years from now. Tell me, who's going to be the best CB, best LB, best S, or best RB 5 years from now?

And that's incredibly stupid. The money he has already received is already going to hit the cap at some point. Why keep him and continue accumulating even MORE cap charges if he's not worth it?

Because cap space dictates a teams ability to acquire players. Is that not obvious? Yes the money he has been paid will hit the cap at some point, but if it hits the cap immediately it's a barrier to acquiring more players, and in some cases it's a catalyst for releasing players.

The discussion is settled. Both Jerry and Stephen have clearly changed their position on the matter. There's literally nothing left to be said because no team operates in the "free as much space as possible right now" manner that you've been championing. Sorry, Adam. You are wrong.
 

Nightman

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No, it does. Because if you pushes charges to later years and the end result is the exact same as paying for age. You have a high cap hit. That's not disputable. Restructuring increases the cap charge for later years, which is exactly the same as paying for age as far as the cap is concerned.


The discussion is settled. Both Jerry and Stephen have clearly changed their position on the matter. There's literally nothing left to be said because no team operates in the "free as much space as possible right now" manner that you've been championing. Sorry, Adam. You are wrong.

I guess you missed the part where Dallas restructured their two largest contracts to create 23m in cap space. That was done to sign FAs, not to get under the cap.

The FAs they signed this year have a combined cap hit of over 50m. That doesn't sound like turning off the faucets. The biggest change appears to be trying to stay away from long term contracts with huge guarantees.
 

Hoofbite

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I guess you missed the part where Dallas restructured their two largest contracts to create 23m in cap space. That was done to sign FAs, not to get under the cap.

The FAs they signed this year have a combined cap hit of over 50m. That doesn't sound like turning off the faucets. The biggest change appears to be trying to stay away from long term contracts with huge guarantees.

If you don't think they have begun to move away from it, I don't know what to tell you. Just listen to their own words.
 

Galian Beast

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If you don't think they have begun to move away from it, I don't know what to tell you. Just listen to their own words.

If you read what he said, you would understood his argument.

They signed Hardy to a lot of money, they signed Dez to a lot of money. They passed on Murray who couldn't be signed short term and wanted a lot of money. They've avoided getting entangled in long term high money deals that have high risk associated with them. That doesn't mean they won't sign big name players, as they've illustrated with Hardy.
 

Hoofbite

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If you read what he said, you would understood his argument.

They signed Hardy to a lot of money, they signed Dez to a lot of money. They passed on Murray who couldn't be signed short term and wanted a lot of money. They've avoided getting entangled in long term high money deals that have high risk associated with them. That doesn't mean they won't sign big name players, as they've illustrated with Hardy.

I'm not sure you know what was even being discussed.
 

Nightman

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If you don't think they have begun to move away from it, I don't know what to tell you. Just listen to their own words.

The only players they failed to restructure were Carr and Witten last year and they still rolled over almost 5m in cap space.

This year Witten is the only one that have not done, yet. They might if they go after APeterson.

They signed a ton of FAs this year, their own and outsiders. I don't see some big change in philosophy. They are simply trying to avoid bad contracts with older and injury plagued players.

Dallas is tied for second all-time with GB for comp picks, so they haven't been big players in outside FA for quite awhile. But the money they spent this offseason was substantial and they needed to restructure TSmith and Romo to do it.

They have signed: Bold re-signed Cowboys
Dez 1/13m

Hardy 1/11-13m
Free 3/15m
Beasley 4/13.6m

Brinkley 2/6.5m
McClain 1/3-4m
Gachkar 2/5.2m
McFadden 2/3m
White 1/1.5m
Dunbar 1/1.5m
CJones 1/1.5m
Hayden 1/750k

Collins 1/750k
Leary 1/585k
Weems 1/585k


They lost:
Murray 5/40m
Parnell 5/32m
Carter 4/17m
Harris 5/17m
Melton 1/3.5m
Durant 3/10.5m
Moore 1/1.5m
 

Hoofbite

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The only players they failed to restructure were Carr and Witten last year and they still rolled over almost 5m in cap space.

This year Witten is the only one that have not done, yet. They might if they go after APeterson.

They signed a ton of FAs this year, their own and outsiders. I don't see some big change in philosophy. They are simply trying to avoid bad contracts with older and injury plagued players.

Dallas is tied for second all-time with GB for comp picks, so they haven't been big players in outside FA for quite awhile. But the money they spent this offseason was substantial and they needed to restructure TSmith and Romo to do it.

They have signed: Bold re-signed Cowboys
Dez 1/13m

Hardy 1/11-13m
Free 3/15m
Beasley 4/13.6m

Brinkley 2/6.5m
McClain 1/3-4m
Gachkar 2/5.2m
McFadden 2/3m
White 1/1.5m
Dunbar 1/1.5m
CJones 1/1.5m
Hayden 1/750k

Collins 1/750k
Leary 1/585k
Weems 1/585k


They lost:
Murray 5/40m
Parnell 5/32m
Carter 4/17m
Harris 5/17m
Melton 1/3.5m
Durant 3/10.5m
Moore 1/1.5m

You don't see a change in philosophy?

Stephen literally laughed at the cap in 2012. More recently, both he and Jerry have acknowledged that they'd rather not sacrifice for the short term.

They didn't restructure Carr last year, let Ware and Hatcher leave, and cut Austin. They didn't restructure Carr this year and saw a handful of players leave including Murray.

They could have kept them all by restructuring but chose not to do so.

They held off on both Tyron and Romo until they needed the money. If Dez signs a long term contract, I think it's likely one of those guys doesn't restructure.

You can say you don't see a change but their actions and comments say otherwise.
 

Nightman

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You don't see a change in philosophy?

Stephen literally laughed at the cap in 2012. More recently, both he and Jerry have acknowledged that they'd rather not sacrifice for the short term.

They didn't restructure Carr last year, let Ware and Hatcher leave, and cut Austin. They didn't restructure Carr this year and saw a handful of players leave including Murray.

They could have kept them all by restructuring but chose not to do so.

They held off on both Tyron and Romo until they needed the money. If Dez signs a long term contract, I think it's likely one of those guys doesn't restructure.

You can say you don't see a change but their actions and comments say otherwise.

I don't think it was about the cap. I think JJones was burned by his loyalty to Ratliff and Austin. He overstepped on RW11 and MBIII.

They learned lessons, but it was about signing better contracts, not how to do the accounting.

If any decisions were put off it was about appearing 'cap poor' to help with negotiations. As long as writers and fans give them cover by calling this 'new' strategy smart, they will play along. But as soon as the rubber hits the road, they go back to the restructure well.
 

Awakened

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Props to hoofbite for having the audacity to challenge Adam!! Sacrilege!
 

AdamJT13

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Adam, given that you can rollover unused cap space into the following year, coupled with the fact that the cap is likely to increase every year, are you in favor of restructuring every contract to the fullest extent possible at every opportunity?

If I ran the team, I would be able to trust myself not to spend cap room unwisely just because I have it. So, I would restructure the contract of any player who is definitely going to be on the team in order to create at least enough cap room to have complete flexibility to do anything that could improve the team. If I already have more cap room than I could possibly need, then I might not -- but I could. I would just plan on taking the cap room I created and pushing it forward to make up for the additional cap charges in the future. If I didn't end up needing the cap room, the net effect would be exactly the same as if the contract was never restructured -- the cap credit would make up for the cap charges.
 

AdamJT13

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No, it does. Because if you pushes charges to later years and the end result is the exact same as paying for age. You have a high cap hit. That's not disputable. Restructuring increases the cap charge for later years, which is exactly the same as paying for age as far as the cap is concerned.

It's not the same as paying for age. All you're doing is changing when the cap charges hit. The adage refers to paying money to players who are older, not paying them money when they're younger and taking the cap hit for it when they're older. If you could pay Dez Bryant $13 million this season and take a cap hit of only $1 million this season, then take the rest of cap hit ($12 million) when he's 35 years old, instead of taking all $13 million this season, you ABSOLUTELY should do that, and it wouldn't be "paying for age." It would be being smart with the cap.


But the cap is not equal to 100.0 every year. Why even pretend that it is?

The cap is always 100.0 percent of the cap.


Yes, the problem is signing him the first place.

You are correct. The problem is the decision to sign and/or keep Carr. Restructuring a contract instead of paying a salary is never the problem. Deciding to pay the salary in the first place is the problem.


As I have said time and time again, any team who can correctly make these decisions to avoid the bad signings is in a position to never have to restructure because they are so far ahead of the game to begin with.

That's not true. You can make nothing but perfect signings and still restructure contracts -- even PLAN to restructure contracts -- in order to maximize cap room.


Because cap space dictates a teams ability to acquire players. Is that not obvious?

That's why you don't waste money on players who are not worth it.

Yes the money he has been paid will hit the cap at some point, but if it hits the cap immediately it's a barrier to acquiring more players, and in some cases it's a catalyst for releasing players.

Again, that's a foolish approach to take -- and essentially the opposite of your entire premise. If we had cut Carr on June 2 last year, instead of cutting him on June 2 this year, the net effect would be $934,000 more "dead money" this year and $7.434 LESS "dead money" next year. You seriously think it's wise to take a $7.434 million cap hit next year to save $934,000 on the cap this year? And yet you think it's unwise to save $934,000 this year and take a $934,000 hit next year? Seriously?

The discussion is settled. Both Jerry and Stephen have clearly changed their position on the matter. There's literally nothing left to be said because no team operates in the "free as much space as possible right now" manner that you've been championing. Sorry, Adam. You are wrong.

I'm not "wrong" about anything, because I never said teams operate that way. I'm saying they SHOULD operate that way. Every team does it to some degree, some more than others. (Some teams might not even have have the cash flow to do it the way I would.)[/quote][/quote]
 
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