The Dilemma In 2008, How Do You Improve On 13-3?

[TNCowboy]

We are making some serious assumptions here.

We've assumed that we've upgraded our RB and 2ndary, and that's going to lead to post November success.

Let's not be so hasty. Julius Jones tailed off in 08, but we can't automatically assume Felix Jones will outplay him. There's no guarantee. Choice is also a 4th round draft pick ... how much can we really expect out of him in his rookie year?

I'd like to believe Jenkins and Scandrick are improvements over Reeves and Nate Jones. But there's no guarantee. The guys we lost had a combined 6 years NFL experience. The guys we're replacing them with have 0. Jenkins may pan out, but may also turn into a dud. That's why the Texans paid Reeves so much money ... he's not great, but he's not a dud either. Scandrick is a 5th rounder. Putting aside the wet dreams that some pundits listed him as a 2nd round talent, he's still a 5th rounder ... which puts him in the same boat as Reeves and Jones when they were rookies.

Pacman may not even make the field due to his troubles.

To automatically assign a grade of improvement to both the RB's and the 2ndary is making some serious assumptions.

When you look at how poorly Julius, Nate Jones, and Reeves played last year, improvement is a pretty safe assumption.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

The difference is that no matter how many times I see it written otherwise, I know that what happened 10 or 12 years ago has absolutely ZERO bearing on this group of Cowboys. Why people think it would is beyond me -- I guess because the uniforms are the same. But that's incredibly shallow. Ten years ago the likes of Demarcus Ware and Chris Canty and Marion Barber were barely out of middle school, for crying out loud.

I consider this generation of team to have begun in 2005, when Parcells went to the 34 and we drafted Ware, Canty, Barber, Ratliff, and Spears. Last year was the third year of that group and the first time they'd won a division. And we did it with new coaches, new systems, and a brand new quarterback.

The point being that this team is still very early in its life cycle, and to this point they've progressed just fine. It's way too soon to start giving up on them.

What in the dog earth are you talking about?

Would you let us in on who implied that what affected teams a dozen years affects today's teams? How did you infer this?

From what I gather, the comparisons have been solely on teams' performances in recent history. Post-Thanksgiving. And there is a pattern.
It's not about individual players who were in grade school a dozen years ago but the way A TEAM fares in the laste season.

Sit down, have some kittle and recompose yourself, man.

 

[Eddie]

When you look at how poorly Julius, Nate Jones, and Reeves played last year, improvement is a pretty safe assumption.

They didn't play poorly ... they didn't play exceptional either.

We can't automatically assume rookies are going to come in and push the team past our post season woes.

I hope they do, and I have high expectations for them ... but there's no guarantee, and we can't talk as if those positions are definitely better.

 

[Seven]

BS to this just win a playoff game . From day one it should be clear that nothing short of the SB is enough this year. Anything else is a failure.
And to do that means winning games after thanksgiving. Means winning in December. No more play it safe, etc/ we tried that and it blew right up in our face.
wade needs to start turning the screws right after thanksgiving and challenge the whole team right in their faces.

The point is we win a playoff game we're showing momentum and focus. The rest should be gravy. We've got the personnel.

 

[reddyuta]

We are making some serious assumptions here.

We've assumed that we've upgraded our RB and 2ndary, and that's going to lead to post November success.

Let's not be so hasty. Julius Jones tailed off in 08, but we can't automatically assume Felix Jones will outplay him. There's no guarantee. Choice is also a 4th round draft pick ... how much can we really expect out of him in his rookie year?

I'd like to believe Jenkins and Scandrick are improvements over Reeves and Nate Jones. But there's no guarantee. The guys we lost had a combined 6 years NFL experience. The guys we're replacing them with have 0. Jenkins may pan out, but may also turn into a dud. That's why the Texans paid Reeves so much money ... he's not great, but he's not a dud either. Scandrick is a 5th rounder. Putting aside the wet dreams that some pundits listed him as a 2nd round talent, he's still a 5th rounder ... which puts him in the same boat as Reeves and Jones when they were rookies.

Pacman may not even make the field due to his troubles.

To automatically assign a grade of improvement to both the RB's and the 2ndary is making some serious assumptions.

so-you like to see the improvement before making assumptions or predictions.hmm.....

 

[Hostile]

Great post Hos. Cant disagree with any of it. Especially nothing less than a 6th Lombardi. I really felt like we left one on the table last year. To me, that was the toughest loss since the 94 NFC Championship game.

That gnaws at me like I can't even tell you. 13 players in the Pro Bowl, new team records set, 13-3 season. I could even handle a playoff loss if I felt there was a definite better team we lost to. I just don't think there was other than the Patriots. Frankly it pisses me off that the Giants beat us.

 

[Hostile]

We are making some serious assumptions here.

We've assumed that we've upgraded our RB and 2ndary, and that's going to lead to post November success.

Let's not be so hasty. Julius Jones tailed off in 08, but we can't automatically assume Felix Jones will outplay him. There's no guarantee. Choice is also a 4th round draft pick ... how much can we really expect out of him in his rookie year?

I'd like to believe Jenkins and Scandrick are improvements over Reeves and Nate Jones. But there's no guarantee. The guys we lost had a combined 6 years NFL experience. The guys we're replacing them with have 0. Jenkins may pan out, but may also turn into a dud. That's why the Texans paid Reeves so much money ... he's not great, but he's not a dud either. Scandrick is a 5th rounder. Putting aside the wet dreams that some pundits listed him as a 2nd round talent, he's still a 5th rounder ... which puts him in the same boat as Reeves and Jones when they were rookies.

Pacman may not even make the field due to his troubles.

To automatically assign a grade of improvement to both the RB's and the 2ndary is making some serious assumptions.

I wasn't aware that assumptions were against the code.

:wink2:

The big difference Eddie is that I make these assumptions for everyone. The Giants lost Gibril Wilson but added Kenny Phillips. I consider that potential for improvement same as us with Jenkins over Reeves or Jones.

Why would I assume this for either team? Because that's what you expect when a kid has talent. I think it is beyond foolish to sit back and say "oh my gosh, we lost three veterans in the secondary and only added 2 rookies and a guy on probation to replace them." What had those 3 veterans done to warrant the stomach acid? I mean besides on game days when you had to close your eyes every time someone threw it at the guy Reeves was covering?

It makes sense to you to bark all season long about Julius Jones being the starter over Barber and running into the backs of Blockers, then when Julius is gone to bark about Barber has limited experience as a starter and we've replaced veterans with rookies? It doesn't to me. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

So you see, you're digging in the spurs on me for daring to make assumptions but you are doing the exact same thing with an opposite view and it's fine. For you it's fine. I never liked swallowing all that bile.

 

[Hostile]

The difference is that no matter how many times I see it written otherwise, I know that what happened 10 or 12 years ago has absolutely ZERO bearing on this group of Cowboys. Why people think it would is beyond me -- I guess because the uniforms are the same. But that's incredibly shallow. Ten years ago the likes of Demarcus Ware and Chris Canty and Marion Barber were barely out of middle school, for crying out loud.

I consider this generation of team to have begun in 2005, when Parcells went to the 34 and we drafted Ware, Canty, Barber, Ratliff, and Spears. Last year was the third year of that group and the first time they'd won a division. And we did it with new coaches, new systems, and a brand new quarterback.

The point being that this team is still very early in its life cycle, and to this point they've progressed just fine. It's way too soon to start giving up on them.

I never said that was relevant. I am saying I am sick of the same sad close to every season chapter. That's the difference.

 

[Hostile]

They didn't play poorly ... they didn't play exceptional either.

We can't automatically assume rookies are going to come in and push the team past our post season woes.

I hope they do, and I have high expectations for them ... but there's no guarantee, and we can't talk as if those positions are definitely better.

I believe if you look closely, at about the 3rd paragraph from the bototm of my OP you will see where I said "I don't have the answer" on how to fix the post Thanksgiving swoon. So how you can interpret it as me saying the rookies are fixing everything, but I don't see how.

 

[Eddie]

I believe if you look closely, at about the 3rd paragraph from the bototm of my OP you will see where I said "I don't have the answer" on how to fix the post Thanksgiving swoon. So how you can interpret it as me saying the rookies are fixing everything, but I don't see how.

My point was to bring up that we're putting too much emphasis on the rooks. We're all assuming we've upgraded the RB's and 2ndary ... but I'm not buying at the moment.

I think the 2009 RB's and 2ndary will be fantastic, but we can't say we'll improve from last year based on the expectations of the rookies.

 

[Aven8]

IMHO I think a lot of last year came down to coaching. Yeah I know players are paid handsomely to produce, but they still need a big kick in the butt, and adjustments throughout the year.

Look at the Giants for instance: IMO one of the best coaching jobs I've seen in years (as much as I hate to admit it!) There secondary was killing them and they had NO consistency on defense. So at the end of the year they adjusted, and sold out on the pass rush. They had no choice, or like us they would have been watching from home. The offense also adjusted to help Eli become more efficient. I think after the Minnesota game last year is when it began. Remember that was the game when he was just throwing up balls and the Vikes D scored 3 TD's. They went to the dink and dunk offense with high percentage passing game, and safe.

My point is they made adjustments, they improved late in the season. Some people say they got "Hot", but the majority of there success came on by coaching adjustments.

That's what we need. I hate the old saying if "it isn't broke, don't fix it line"! In the NFL today you have to be always evolving, and changing. The talent is too similar not to. The only adjustment we made was by running the ball in that playoff game. That was also due to injuries more than adjusting.

We cannot keep staying pat and doing what works, we need to be constantly changing, and experimenting. We have enough talent now to have that luxury. We cannot allow ourselves to get complacent, and stubborn AKA "The Parcell's Way". It's a changing game and the teams that do not adjust will find there teams sitting on the sofa with the rest of us come late January. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Angus]

A good rundown Hostile, but the goal for the players should be to win the next game, not the playoffs, and not the super bowl until the super bowl IS the next game.

It is pleasant for fans to extrapolate, but for players, unless it is one game at a time, they have the wrong focus.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I never said that was relevant. I am saying I am sick of the same sad close to every season chapter. That's the difference.

That was in response to bbgun's mention of not winning a playoff game in a decade.

 

[Hostile]

My point was to bring up that we're putting too much emphasis on the rooks. We're all assuming we've upgraded the RB's and 2ndary ... but I'm not buying at the moment.

I think the 2009 RB's and 2ndary will be fantastic, but we can't say we'll improve from last year based on the expectations of the rookies.

I think we have to say it. From having Barber as a starter alone we should say it. From better field position through better return teams we should be able to say it.

 

[Hostile]

IMHO I think a lot of last year came down to coaching. Yeah I know players are paid handsomely to produce, but they still need a big kick in the butt, and adjustments throughout the year.

Look at the Giants for instance: IMO one of the best coaching jobs I've seen in years (as much as I hate to admit it!) There secondary was killing them and they had NO consistency on defense. So at the end of the year they adjusted, and sold out on the pass rush. They had no choice, or like us they would have been watching from home. The offense also adjusted to help Eli become more efficient. I think after the Minnesota game last year is when it began. Remember that was the game when he was just throwing up balls and the Vikes D scored 3 TD's. They went to the dink and dunk offense with high percentage passing game, and safe.

My point is they made adjustments, they improved late in the season. Some people say they got "Hot", but the majority of there success came on by coaching adjustments.

That's what we need. I hate the old saying if "it isn't broke, don't fix it line"! In the NFL today you have to be always evolving, and changing. The talent is too similar not to. The only adjustment we made was by running the ball in that playoff game. That was also due to injuries more than adjusting.

We cannot keep staying pat and doing what works, we need to be constantly changing, and experimenting. We have enough talent now to have that luxury. We cannot allow ourselves to get complacent, and stubborn AKA "The Parcell's Way". It's a changing game and the teams that do not adjust will find there teams sitting on the sofa with the rest of us come late January. But that's just my opinion.

I agree with this. Wade is 0-4 lifetime in the playoffs after last year. Some guys it takes a while to figur eit out. The bottom line for me about last year was that Wade wasn't as aggressive Defensively as I really hoped. Not just with blitz packages either. I'm talking about he didn't mix up assignments as often as I expected.

 

[Hostile]

That was in response to bbgun's mention of not winning a playoff game in a decade.

Yeah, I do think we tend to put too much emphasis on that, but it has to be relevant to the fans because we're going to hear it from opposing team's fans until the team gets it fixed.

 

[bbgun]

That was in response to bbgun's mention of not winning a playoff game in a decade.

Which I raised as an issue because you invoked Landry's name. The ten-year drought is more of an indictment of our GM than the people he hired.

 

[Mavs Man]

The only way to measure 2008's success is the 2009 postseason, regardless of whatever happens.

And yet again as a fan (see av) I am forced to wait until the postseason for any hope of a payoff.