The Offensive Line 2020-2024: we did invest, we just had little success with the investment. Why??

Yep, drafting been a peculiarity of late. I didn't realise that in the Mazi v Bergeron debate, Bergeron went 12 places later (and two O-Linemen in between), are we going off script in 1st Rd as well as the traditional 2nd Rd lottery ticket.
Last few drafts Dallas has really picked for need instead of the best player on the board.

They put themselves in these situations when they do nothing in free agency and don’t try and fill some positions before the draft.
 
Last edited:
. The Eagles, contrary to some beliefs, do not draft 2-3 o-linemen every draft. So why is their line so good? Let's take a look at each team's draft since 2020.
Well the Eagles have two all-pro OL they drafted before 2020, Lane Johnson since 2010 and LT Mailata was a 7th rounder in 2018. Dickerson and Jurgens were 2nd rounders, and their final starter, Becton, was a FA signee.

Dallas has drafted more OL, but mainly only hit big on the 1st rounders. Most of the 4th-7th rounders have been duds. As someone else said, we had 2-3 decent OL the last several years we opted to let go of in FA.
 
Well the Eagles have two all-pro OL they drafted before 2020, Lane Johnson since 2010 and LT Mailata was a 7th rounder in 2018. Dickerson and Jurgens were 2nd rounders, and their final starter, Becton, was a FA signee.

Dallas has drafted more OL, but mainly only hit big on the 1st rounders. Most of the 4th-7th rounders have been duds. As someone else said, we had 2-3 decent OL the last several years we opted to let go of in FA.
I actually had no trouble letting go of most of them. I would have looked at keeping Tyron for one more season to give Guyton time to learn. But other than that, most of who we let go were not all that. Biadasz simply was not strong enough and got bull rushed too often. Now the one we let go that went to Miami and became a real good center I do regret some; but he NEVER looked that good here. which of course calls into question our coaching.
 

Why??​


Cause its simply NOT TRUE

You choose not to resign Wisconsin who made the Pro Bowl here and was a starter on a Championship Game team with Washington

You drafted McGovern in 2019 in the 3rd who you also choose not to sign and who made the Pro Bowl with Buffalo

Smith made second team All Pro

Pretty good haul over five drafts. How many teams draft three OL over a five draft stretch that make a Pro Bowl, but of course it is simply not good enough in Dallas!

Wo-is-us

Judge Beebe and Guyton going forward.

And you got two division championships and three playoff appearances out of those investments
This is true.

Either we have horrible talent evaluators & coaches who can't get the guy in the right spot or we have roles dictated from above.

C Will should never have been starting LG for so long. Maybe he could have been a good center for us.

Tyler B is a limited center. Apparent rather quickly. Should have moved on earlier.

McGovern apparently got in someone's doghouse early & was never given much opportunity. He is clearly better than this staff said he was.

O'Cyrus Torrence falls in their lap and we choose a TE with little college production.
 
When the Eagles took Landon Dickerson in the second round in 2021 (#37 overall), The Cowboys took Kelvin Joseph. At the time JOK, Nick Bolton, and Creed Humphry were available. There were other that were also better than Joseph. 2nd round picks are important and if you miss there you are giving up a possible starter or better. Dallas has made a lot of mistakes in the 2nd round.
Truth
 
Selecting Guyton a guy who hasn't played much and going off potential is someone you pick up LATER in the draft on day 3
Yes and no. IYou aren't going to find a prospect like him in day 3. He's a day 1 guy. A late 1st round early 2nd round guy. The issue comes with having him start day 1. He should've been a backup to Tyron or someone else.
 
He was a reach, a guy that played a limited number of games, you clearly don't watch the draft stuff about these players, you clearly go off whatever they tell you around your city :facepalm: (joking with him, here comes the revolt):rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
If you watched "draft stuff" you would know he was highly regarded as a late 1st rounder and 2nd round guy.
 
It sounds like what it comes down to is player evaluation. Whether it is free agency or the draft, the teams that can evaluate talent better will do better on the field.

When the Eagles took Landon Dickerson in the second round in 2021 (#37 overall), The Cowboys took Kelvin Joseph. At the time JOK, Nick Bolton, and Creed Humphry were available. There were other that were also better than Joseph. 2nd round picks are important and if you miss there you are giving up a possible starter or better. Dallas has made a lot of mistakes in the 2nd round.

The Giants have been drafting near the top of each round for years. They took two OTs early in the draft and one turned out okay, the other has been a weak spot for them. You pay the price for mistakes like that.

The Cowboys need to stop wasting draft picks.
While true, Eagles have also had some misses in the 1st and 2nd. Misses happen. A Joseph miss shouldn't happen because a guy like him shouldn't even be drafted by this team unless its later rounds. They need to stop trying to be right or the smartest guy in the room on 2nd rounders. Do that later in the draft.

Its not the misses. You will miss in the draft and honestly Cowboys are probably fortunate they haven't missed as much as other teams have in the 1st round. But its how you recover from those misses and because the Cowboys are so draft dependent they don't have the luxury teh Eagles have to miss on picks.
 
How much should a team invest in a position group? Just to focus on the offensive line, we know what a top tier line can do for the offense. Let's compare ourselves against the rest of the NFCE. We had a top tier line from 2016-2019. Eagles have had one for 10 years. The Giants and Commanders have lagged behind, to say the least.

But would it surprise you to find out that the Cowboys have invested more picks (8) than any other NFCE team? Giants and Eagles have invested seven draft picks on the o-line since 2020. Washington has invested five for comparison. The Eagles, contrary to some beliefs, do not draft 2-3 o-linemen every draft. So why is their line so good? Let's take a look at each team's draft since 2020.

New York Giants:
2020:
1-Andrew Thomas
3- Matt Peart
5- Shane Lemieux

2021:
None

2022:
1-Evan Neal
3-Joshua Ezeudu
5- Marcus McKethen

2023:
2-John Michael Schmitz

2024:
None

Philadelphia Eagles
2020:
4-Jack Driscoll
6-Prince Tega Wanogho

2021:
2-Landon Dickerson

2022:
2-Cam Jurgens

2023:
3-Tyler Steen

2024:
5-Trevor Keegan
6-Dylan McMahon

Dallas Cowboys:
2020:
4-Tyler Biadasz
(Steele UDFA)

2021:
4-Josh Ball

2022:
1-Tyler Smith
5-Matt Waletzko

2023:
5-Asim Richards

2024:
1-Tyler Guyton
3-Cooper Beebe
7-Nathan Thomas

Washington Commanders
2020:
None

2021:
2-Sam Cosmi

2022:
7-Chris Paul

2023:
3-Ricky Stromberg
4-Braeden Daniels

2024:
3-Brandon Coleman

The Giants, with their horrible front office and substandard coaching, have only one Pro Bowl-level player in Thomas (and oft-injured as well), one of the biggest busts in recent o-line history (Neal), a starter by necessity in Schmitz that many in New York would prefer to see flipping burgers, and JAG wanna-be trash.

The Eagles have two Pro Bowl-level players in Dickerson and Jurgens, a developing starter in Steen, a solid backup/spot starter in Driscoll, two practice squad players, and Prince Wanogho, now with the KC Chiefs.

The Cowboys have a Pro Bowl-level player in Smith, a promising player in Beebe (I have high hopes that he can be a top-5 center in the league), and to be honest, we really don't know what we have with the other players. Biadasz is starting for Washington, but I have no doubt what Beebe will be better by next year.

The Commanders have a Pro Bowl-level player in Cosmi and a JAG parade.

Two of those teams this year added through FA's: Becton for the Eagles and Biadasz for the Commanders. Both did well. Giants FA signings were garbage and not worth mentioning.

What I find interesting is that we had a beasty line from 2016-2019 and absolutely tried to keep our line strong. The problem is that we didn't find any studs besides Smith. 2024 draft is still out of course (Go Beebe!), but we certainly tried. We put two #1's in that drafting too. Let's hope Guyton works out.

The Giants used two #1's, and have a injury-riddled PB player in Thomas and a guy in Neal that aspires to JAG status. They will once again renew the lease on the NFCE basement this upcoming year.

The Commanders haven't invested much in their line, and it shows in their games. There's a reason Jayden Daniels looks like he's running for his life every game.

Now the Eagles...an anomaly. They didn't invest a single #1 pick on their line from 2020 to now. They did invest two #2's, and both players were switched to a new position in the pros (Jurgens does end up at center though). Their HoF-to-be center Kelce was a 6th round pick in 2011, and Lane Johnson was a 2013 #1, but only the third tackle selected due to lack of experience at the tackle position. One NFL exec called him a "Hyper-athlete with limited experience at tackle. Not taking the chance." If anyone wants to nitpick, yes, they took Dillard #1 in 2019, but also took Mailata in the 7th that same draft.

So we have three teams that try to reload on the o-line (Us, Philly, NYG). Three that use FA's to fill gaps (Philly, NYG, Wash). So how can Philly not use 1st round picks and stay elite on the line? IMO, it is three factors.

First, the front office isn't afraid to use any resource to identify talent. Roseman will pick up the phone and talk to coaches. He will ask for their input and use their knowledge, combine it with his experience, and go for players. He has a very good relationship with Stoutland. They also value player input. They listen to veterans that have been around for 10+ years.

Secondly, they know the value of team culture and structure. The Eagles aren't afraid to bring in guys with character issues because they know players like Johnson, Graham, Cox, Kelce, Slay etc. would never put up with someone not buying in. Mailata seems to be going the same route. Barkley is the same way. So is Hurts (in a quiet way). Culture and structure. Becton a fat lazy slob? Not in Philly. Carter a troublemaker every week? Not in Philly. Can't get to the practice facility on a off-day? Go to Johnson's "Bro barn" at his home and work out.

Thirdly, is their coaching that much better? Does Lurie give Stoutland anything he wants because he is the true God of O-line coaching? According to players that worked under him, he really is.

That makes me wonder. Who are our vet players that command respect and push the envelope? What coaches do we have that can take a man that never played football in his life and turn him into a monster on the field? Will Jerry ever see, after watching three years of 12-5 football go to waste, that maybe things must change? Jerry Jones is not stupid. He saw what happened in Washington, in Detroit, and in Philly. I can't believe he doesn't want to win.

I'm sorry guys, I'm venting. I look at my Roger jersey, my pic of Troy holding the Lombardi, and just wonder...*** happened to our team?
simple answer is COACHING. our OL coach from 2020-2024 was not that good. steel regressed. so did most of the other line players outside of the named ones above.
 
simple answer is COACHING. our OL coach from 2020-2024 was not that good. steel regressed. so did most of the other line players outside of the named ones above.
You do know we've had multiple OL coaches in that time? Also Steele was a UDFA from the 2020 draft so I'm not sure how him becoming a starter and getting a large contract extension means he regressed? He got injured....not sure if coaching changes that?

Tyler Smith has been excellent....Cooper Beebe has been really good. Even some of the young guys like Bass/Richards/Hoffman have shown improvement. I get Martin had regress, but he also just retired. I think that has a lot more to do with age and his body not holding up than it was coaching.
 
I'm not buying the "we really don't know what we have with the other players" at all. Bass. Hoffman. Richards. Even Guyton who has tons of upside. Cowboys will add to the mix one way or another soon. Main thing is I feel we finally have a coaching staff that can actually get this group of play well as a unit. That might be the most important upgrade this off season.
I agree
Bass and Hoffman have filled in great
In fact when they played I believe that’s when Rico began to shine
We might have ? At LT and Rt tackles so I suspect that they might draft one
But the real upgrade might be coaching
 
Last few drafts Dallas has really picked for need instead of the best player on the board.

They put themselves in these situations when they do nothing in free agency and don’t try and fill some positions before the draft.
Yep, we need to go back to the BPA strategy. No reaching for need.
 
How much should a team invest in a position group? Just to focus on the offensive line, we know what a top tier line can do for the offense. Let's compare ourselves against the rest of the NFCE. We had a top tier line from 2016-2019. Eagles have had one for 10 years. The Giants and Commanders have lagged behind, to say the least.

But would it surprise you to find out that the Cowboys have invested more picks (8) than any other NFCE team? Giants and Eagles have invested seven draft picks on the o-line since 2020. Washington has invested five for comparison. The Eagles, contrary to some beliefs, do not draft 2-3 o-linemen every draft. So why is their line so good? Let's take a look at each team's draft since 2020.

New York Giants:
2020:
1-Andrew Thomas
3- Matt Peart
5- Shane Lemieux

2021:
None

2022:
1-Evan Neal
3-Joshua Ezeudu
5- Marcus McKethen

2023:
2-John Michael Schmitz

2024:
None

Philadelphia Eagles
2020:
4-Jack Driscoll
6-Prince Tega Wanogho

2021:
2-Landon Dickerson

2022:
2-Cam Jurgens

2023:
3-Tyler Steen

2024:
5-Trevor Keegan
6-Dylan McMahon

Dallas Cowboys:
2020:
4-Tyler Biadasz
(Steele UDFA)

2021:
4-Josh Ball

2022:
1-Tyler Smith
5-Matt Waletzko

2023:
5-Asim Richards

2024:
1-Tyler Guyton
3-Cooper Beebe
7-Nathan Thomas

Washington Commanders
2020:
None

2021:
2-Sam Cosmi

2022:
7-Chris Paul

2023:
3-Ricky Stromberg
4-Braeden Daniels

2024:
3-Brandon Coleman

The Giants, with their horrible front office and substandard coaching, have only one Pro Bowl-level player in Thomas (and oft-injured as well), one of the biggest busts in recent o-line history (Neal), a starter by necessity in Schmitz that many in New York would prefer to see flipping burgers, and JAG wanna-be trash.

The Eagles have two Pro Bowl-level players in Dickerson and Jurgens, a developing starter in Steen, a solid backup/spot starter in Driscoll, two practice squad players, and Prince Wanogho, now with the KC Chiefs.

The Cowboys have a Pro Bowl-level player in Smith, a promising player in Beebe (I have high hopes that he can be a top-5 center in the league), and to be honest, we really don't know what we have with the other players. Biadasz is starting for Washington, but I have no doubt what Beebe will be better by next year.

The Commanders have a Pro Bowl-level player in Cosmi and a JAG parade.

Two of those teams this year added through FA's: Becton for the Eagles and Biadasz for the Commanders. Both did well. Giants FA signings were garbage and not worth mentioning.

What I find interesting is that we had a beasty line from 2016-2019 and absolutely tried to keep our line strong. The problem is that we didn't find any studs besides Smith. 2024 draft is still out of course (Go Beebe!), but we certainly tried. We put two #1's in that drafting too. Let's hope Guyton works out.

The Giants used two #1's, and have a injury-riddled PB player in Thomas and a guy in Neal that aspires to JAG status. They will once again renew the lease on the NFCE basement this upcoming year.

The Commanders haven't invested much in their line, and it shows in their games. There's a reason Jayden Daniels looks like he's running for his life every game.

Now the Eagles...an anomaly. They didn't invest a single #1 pick on their line from 2020 to now. They did invest two #2's, and both players were switched to a new position in the pros (Jurgens does end up at center though). Their HoF-to-be center Kelce was a 6th round pick in 2011, and Lane Johnson was a 2013 #1, but only the third tackle selected due to lack of experience at the tackle position. One NFL exec called him a "Hyper-athlete with limited experience at tackle. Not taking the chance." If anyone wants to nitpick, yes, they took Dillard #1 in 2019, but also took Mailata in the 7th that same draft.

So we have three teams that try to reload on the o-line (Us, Philly, NYG). Three that use FA's to fill gaps (Philly, NYG, Wash). So how can Philly not use 1st round picks and stay elite on the line? IMO, it is three factors.

First, the front office isn't afraid to use any resource to identify talent. Roseman will pick up the phone and talk to coaches. He will ask for their input and use their knowledge, combine it with his experience, and go for players. He has a very good relationship with Stoutland. They also value player input. They listen to veterans that have been around for 10+ years.

Secondly, they know the value of team culture and structure. The Eagles aren't afraid to bring in guys with character issues because they know players like Johnson, Graham, Cox, Kelce, Slay etc. would never put up with someone not buying in. Mailata seems to be going the same route. Barkley is the same way. So is Hurts (in a quiet way). Culture and structure. Becton a fat lazy slob? Not in Philly. Carter a troublemaker every week? Not in Philly. Can't get to the practice facility on a off-day? Go to Johnson's "Bro barn" at his home and work out.

Thirdly, is their coaching that much better? Does Lurie give Stoutland anything he wants because he is the true God of O-line coaching? According to players that worked under him, he really is.

That makes me wonder. Who are our vet players that command respect and push the envelope? What coaches do we have that can take a man that never played football in his life and turn him into a monster on the field? Will Jerry ever see, after watching three years of 12-5 football go to waste, that maybe things must change? Jerry Jones is not stupid. He saw what happened in Washington, in Detroit, and in Philly. I can't believe he doesn't want to win.

I'm sorry guys, I'm venting. I look at my Roger jersey, my pic of Troy holding the Lombardi, and just wonder...*** happened to our team?
My one small interjection is ;Philadelphia rebuilt off of trading Wentz for more value. then made great choices in the draft and has some damn good luck too.
 
How much should a team invest in a position group? Just to focus on the offensive line, we know what a top tier line can do for the offense. Let's compare ourselves against the rest of the NFCE. We had a top tier line from 2016-2019. Eagles have had one for 10 years. The Giants and Commanders have lagged behind, to say the least.

But would it surprise you to find out that the Cowboys have invested more picks (8) than any other NFCE team? Giants and Eagles have invested seven draft picks on the o-line since 2020. Washington has invested five for comparison. The Eagles, contrary to some beliefs, do not draft 2-3 o-linemen every draft. So why is their line so good? Let's take a look at each team's draft since 2020.

New York Giants:
2020:
1-Andrew Thomas
3- Matt Peart
5- Shane Lemieux

2021:
None

2022:
1-Evan Neal
3-Joshua Ezeudu
5- Marcus McKethen

2023:
2-John Michael Schmitz

2024:
None

Philadelphia Eagles
2020:
4-Jack Driscoll
6-Prince Tega Wanogho

2021:
2-Landon Dickerson

2022:
2-Cam Jurgens

2023:
3-Tyler Steen

2024:
5-Trevor Keegan
6-Dylan McMahon

Dallas Cowboys:
2020:
4-Tyler Biadasz
(Steele UDFA)

2021:
4-Josh Ball

2022:
1-Tyler Smith
5-Matt Waletzko

2023:
5-Asim Richards

2024:
1-Tyler Guyton
3-Cooper Beebe
7-Nathan Thomas

Washington Commanders
2020:
None

2021:
2-Sam Cosmi

2022:
7-Chris Paul

2023:
3-Ricky Stromberg
4-Braeden Daniels

2024:
3-Brandon Coleman

The Giants, with their horrible front office and substandard coaching, have only one Pro Bowl-level player in Thomas (and oft-injured as well), one of the biggest busts in recent o-line history (Neal), a starter by necessity in Schmitz that many in New York would prefer to see flipping burgers, and JAG wanna-be trash.

The Eagles have two Pro Bowl-level players in Dickerson and Jurgens, a developing starter in Steen, a solid backup/spot starter in Driscoll, two practice squad players, and Prince Wanogho, now with the KC Chiefs.

The Cowboys have a Pro Bowl-level player in Smith, a promising player in Beebe (I have high hopes that he can be a top-5 center in the league), and to be honest, we really don't know what we have with the other players. Biadasz is starting for Washington, but I have no doubt what Beebe will be better by next year.

The Commanders have a Pro Bowl-level player in Cosmi and a JAG parade.

Two of those teams this year added through FA's: Becton for the Eagles and Biadasz for the Commanders. Both did well. Giants FA signings were garbage and not worth mentioning.

What I find interesting is that we had a beasty line from 2016-2019 and absolutely tried to keep our line strong. The problem is that we didn't find any studs besides Smith. 2024 draft is still out of course (Go Beebe!), but we certainly tried. We put two #1's in that drafting too. Let's hope Guyton works out.

The Giants used two #1's, and have a injury-riddled PB player in Thomas and a guy in Neal that aspires to JAG status. They will once again renew the lease on the NFCE basement this upcoming year.

The Commanders haven't invested much in their line, and it shows in their games. There's a reason Jayden Daniels looks like he's running for his life every game.

Now the Eagles...an anomaly. They didn't invest a single #1 pick on their line from 2020 to now. They did invest two #2's, and both players were switched to a new position in the pros (Jurgens does end up at center though). Their HoF-to-be center Kelce was a 6th round pick in 2011, and Lane Johnson was a 2013 #1, but only the third tackle selected due to lack of experience at the tackle position. One NFL exec called him a "Hyper-athlete with limited experience at tackle. Not taking the chance." If anyone wants to nitpick, yes, they took Dillard #1 in 2019, but also took Mailata in the 7th that same draft.

So we have three teams that try to reload on the o-line (Us, Philly, NYG). Three that use FA's to fill gaps (Philly, NYG, Wash). So how can Philly not use 1st round picks and stay elite on the line? IMO, it is three factors.

First, the front office isn't afraid to use any resource to identify talent. Roseman will pick up the phone and talk to coaches. He will ask for their input and use their knowledge, combine it with his experience, and go for players. He has a very good relationship with Stoutland. They also value player input. They listen to veterans that have been around for 10+ years.

Secondly, they know the value of team culture and structure. The Eagles aren't afraid to bring in guys with character issues because they know players like Johnson, Graham, Cox, Kelce, Slay etc. would never put up with someone not buying in. Mailata seems to be going the same route. Barkley is the same way. So is Hurts (in a quiet way). Culture and structure. Becton a fat lazy slob? Not in Philly. Carter a troublemaker every week? Not in Philly. Can't get to the practice facility on a off-day? Go to Johnson's "Bro barn" at his home and work out.

Thirdly, is their coaching that much better? Does Lurie give Stoutland anything he wants because he is the true God of O-line coaching? According to players that worked under him, he really is.

That makes me wonder. Who are our vet players that command respect and push the envelope? What coaches do we have that can take a man that never played football in his life and turn him into a monster on the field? Will Jerry ever see, after watching three years of 12-5 football go to waste, that maybe things must change? Jerry Jones is not stupid. He saw what happened in Washington, in Detroit, and in Philly. I can't believe he doesn't want to win.

I'm sorry guys, I'm venting. I look at my Roger jersey, my pic of Troy holding the Lombardi, and just wonder...*** happened to our team?
Cowboys are just way too soft and it hasn't helped that Prescott has been our over hyped, overpaid, less that mediocre QB.
 

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