The positives of a roll out style offense. Need your input and help.

[JBond]

The positives of a roll out style offense. Need your input and help.

I was listening to ESPN radio Sunday and they discussed the benefit of a “mobile” not running QB. They were discussing another team but the theory applies to us as well. The idea was that every defensive player on the field knows exactly where the QB will drop back to and rush that spot. When the QB is under duress the CB and LB jump the routes resulting in an incompletion or tackle with very little RAC yards or worse a turnover. Defenders are excited to go after young or immobile QB’s.

They also mentioned teams without dominate O-Lines could use the roll out to slow the pass rush because they become hesitant to commit to a small area where the QB is supposed to be. By rolling out and creating a mobile pocket it creates hesitation by the defense. It also opens up cut back lanes by over pursuit of the defense. Play action becomes much more effective and it keeps the defense from presuming the QB will be in a specific area. We all understand Drew Bledsoe has a gun and given time will hit his mark. We also understand the guy trips over his own feet when asked to move around.

Unfortunately we no longer have the greatest RB, WR, QB, and TE along with a nasty O-Line that just beat the snot out of very good teams. We need to adjust to the present personal we have on our team.

Any help from X vs O type posters would be great. Still learning.

John

 

[JBond]

Help. Is there anyone out there? Looking for answers from fans that understand the X's and O's of football. I know we have some great minds on this site. Help me please.

 

[JBond]

bump

hello? Is everyone here all about the bling or is there some who wish to discuss football and theory?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't love Roll Out offenses as a rule. I think it's useful against a dominating pass rushing team who can apply pressure from the edge but not as a staple of offense. I would much rather use screens, draws, play action and extensive short passing routes to the backs/flanker screens. For use, the problem with roll outs are that we can't stop the pressure right up the gut. When the pressure comes straight up the middle, a slow footed QB often gets tracked down by the pressure up the middle. Also, you limit your field by cutting it in half, so to speak. Lastly, we don't have a QB who is very accurate with the pass while on the move. IE, he can't snap off a great throw to an open WR on the run. He has to stop, set up and aquire his receiver. Because our QB has to basically set up again, he's going to be very vulnerable to a major hit from an on coming rusher with a head of steam. You see a lot of QBs get hurt off this type of pass rush. You get a fast LB or DE coming off the edge to nail your QB and something has to give. Some Roll Out is good just to slow the pass rush (one more thing for the defense to have to guard against) but by and large, I don't think it fits Bledsoe very well. JMO of course.

 

[Stautner]

Roll out "offense" is really a misnomer, you have plays that are rollouts, but entire NFL offenses aren't based on rollouts.

That said, you can move the QB around some, and some teams have done that quite a bit at times, but actually rolling out the QB more than once in a while doesn't make sense. Rollouts can become predictable too - there is only left and right, so just one more option above setting up in the pocket

While the rollout can help avoid a pass rush at times, it can also leave a QB even more exposed because he wont have his entire O-line in front of him. If the defense reads the rollout the QB can be a sitting duck.

Particularly if a QB doesn't run well the rollout can end up doing more harm than good - especially of the defense comes to expect it.

Bottom line is that rollouts are tools to help buy a little time for the QB on individual plays, but not something that can be used regularly.

 

[JBond]

Thanks for responding. I was just thinking about the pass rush or blitz up the middle with the DE's pressing from the outside. I do not want to use it as the main offense but would love to give the opposing defense another aspect to worry about. This is not a secret "start Romo" thread but some mobility would go a long way to preventing strong defensive lines from pinning their ears back and killing our QB.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Thanks for responding. I was just thinking about the pass rush or blitz up the middle with the DE's pressing from the outside. I do not want to use it as the main offense but would love to give the opposing defense another aspect to worry about. This is not a secret "start Romo" thread but some mobility would go a long way to preventing strong defensive lines from pinning their ears back and killing our QB.

It's interesting, I've watched Bledsoe throw for some time now and it amazes me that he can not move in the pocket. I don't really even think you have to be particularly fast or agile to avoid the rush. When guys are rushing you, they are coming 100% as hard as they can go with somebody trying to stear you one way or the other. It's really not all that tough to make a slight move in the pocket to avoid the rusher, most times. Physically, Bledsoe is able to do this. He should be able to just move a bit one way or the other but he just isn't good at it. It's like once he takes his eyes off the field, he doesn't have the ability to reaquire his targets down field. It's really a puzzling thing to me. Seems as if he should be able to execute this type of movement but he can't. He just seems to panic when he's forced to move. Really amazing to me.

 

[Stautner]

Thanks for responding. I was just thinking about the pass rush or blitz up the middle with the DE's pressing from the outside. I do not want to use it as the main offense but would love to give the opposing defense another aspect to worry about. This is not a secret "start Romo" thread but some mobility would go a long way to preventing strong defensive lines from pinning their ears back and killing our QB.

Well, without a doubt rollouts would be more effective with Romo than with Bledsoe, but they have to be used selectively no matter the QB.

Of course, with a QB like Michael Vick rollouts become true option plays with running being as much of a threat as being able to avoid the pass rush and throw.

 

[Stash]

A bit off-topic, but I would like to point out something along these lines.

The Cowboys offense is sorely lacking in "quick-hitting" plays of any kind and the results are apparent.

Take for instance versus the Eagles:

The week before the Cowboys played them they played the Packers.

Green Bay used a quick passing system for the most part and the result was 0 sacks for the Eagles.

Against the cowboys, the Eagles generated 7 sacks.

The following week, the Eagles played the New Orleans Saints who mixed up a short passing game with deep strikes.

The Eagles had 0 sacks against the Saints.

Looking objectively, neither the Packers nor the Saints have offensive lines considered far superior to the Cowboys.

And yet both were able to hold off the Eagles' pass rush whereas Dallas could not.

The lack of hot reads and quick-hitting plays hurts the Cowboys as much - if not more - than any breakdowns or mistakes made by their players.

Until this changes, I'm not expecting significantly different results.

 

[Stautner]

A bit off-topic, but I would like to point out something along these lines.

The Cowboys offense is sorely lacking in "quick-hitting" plays of any kind and the results are apparent.

Take for instance versus the Eagles:

The week before the Cowboys played them they played the Packers.

Green Bay used a quick passing system for the most part and the result was 0 sacks for the Eagles.

Against the cowboys, the Eagles generated 7 sacks.

The following week, the Eagles played the New Orleans Saints who mixed up a short passing game with deep strikes.

The Eagles had 0 sacks against the Saints.

Looking objectively, neither the Packers nor the Saints have offensive lines considered far superior to the Cowboys.

And yet both were able to hold off the Eagles' pass rush whereas Dallas could not.

The lack of hot reads and quick-hitting plays hurts the Cowboys as much - if not more - than any breakdowns or mistakes made by their players.

Until this changes, I'm not expecting significantly different results.

Keep in mind that Bledsoe has the power to audible if he senses or reads a blitz coming, and those are likely the kinds of plays that would be part of the audible package in blitz situations.

 

[Stash]

Keep in mind that Bledsoe has the power to audible if he senses or reads a blitz coming, and those are likely the kinds of plays that would be part of the audible package in blitz situations.

I sure haven't seen it.

What I have seen are the ineffective "kill" plays used when he senses blitz.

I have seen no indication of a "quick strike" ability by the 2006 Cowboys.

Not quick throws to the running back in the flat, not quick passes to the TE's, and not quick slant throws to the receivers (save for one to Owens this Sunday).

Teams like Green Bay and New Orleasn used quick plays to stifle aggressive pass rushes, much like Arizona was able to last night.

It seems that the concept is foreign to the Dallas staff.

 

[ravidubey]

I've posted about this topic quite often, but this is a big website and posts get lost.

The Cowboys have routinely used rollout plays since Bledsoe arrived in 2005, but they tend to save them for when they absolutely must have a big play. For example, every big desperation last ditch pass to Terry Glenn (Oakland, Jacksonville, Philadelphia) came on a rollout or half rollout.

I don't know why they don't do it more often, but one reason is missed plays-- you buy time by moving the pocket, but if someone gets open during the window of time while the QB is moving it's really hard for the QB to throw to him.

The rollout also reduces the QB's vision as he looks more to the side of the field he's rolling to and only really gets a good look at the entire field when he's finally set.

Lastly, getting set also takes even more time, especially with a long legged QB like Bledsoe.

 

[ravidubey]

Not quick throws to the running back in the flat, not quick passes to the TE's, and not quick slant throws to the receivers (save for one to Owens this Sunday).

I agree the Boys failed at this in the Philly game, but they did use quick passes against Jacksonville. On one play in Philly where Bledsoe tried a quick throw to Julius from a three step drop he was hit from behind and lost the football because Flozell didn't block the RDE when he charged inside.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

A bit off-topic, but I would like to point out something along these lines.

The Cowboys offense is sorely lacking in "quick-hitting" plays of any kind and the results are apparent.

Take for instance versus the Eagles:

The week before the Cowboys played them they played the Packers.

Green Bay used a quick passing system for the most part and the result was 0 sacks for the Eagles.

Against the cowboys, the Eagles generated 7 sacks.

The following week, the Eagles played the New Orleans Saints who mixed up a short passing game with deep strikes.

The Eagles had 0 sacks against the Saints.

Looking objectively, neither the Packers nor the Saints have offensive lines considered far superior to the Cowboys.

And yet both were able to hold off the Eagles' pass rush whereas Dallas could not.

The lack of hot reads and quick-hitting plays hurts the Cowboys as much - if not more - than any breakdowns or mistakes made by their players.

Until this changes, I'm not expecting significantly different results.

I can't say for sure but seems like it was reported somewhere that the Cowboys really don't audiblize in the classic sense. You can change from a pass to a run but I don't know that the QBs have the authority to change into a different pass play, per say. IE, straight GO as opposed to whatever else if you see something in the secondary. I don't know, perhaps somebody can expand on this.

I think your point about the lack of quick hitting plays or "Timing Patterns" is a good one. I have watched Bledsoe play for a long time and he has never really been the kind of QB that excells at short accurate passing patterns. At least, that is my opinion of him. He just isn't as accurate with that pass as he is the intermediate to long pass. His motion is a bit long and drawn out as opposed to a quick and compact motion usually required for the short quick slants etc. That type of offense really doesn't fit him well so I think we don't run much of it. You know us, if we don't practice it, we don't use it.

 

[Stautner]

I sure haven't seen it.

What I have seen are the ineffective "kill" plays used when he senses blitz.

I have seen no indication of a "quick strike" ability by the 2006 Cowboys.

Not quick throws to the running back in the flat, not quick passes to the TE's, and not quick slant throws to the receivers (save for one to Owens this Sunday).

Teams like Green Bay and New Orleasn used quick plays to stifle aggressive pass rushes, much like Arizona was able to last night.

It seems that the concept is foreign to the Dallas staff.

I haven't seen it either, so either the Cowboys have strayed from some plays that are typical weapons against the blitz or Bledsoe has. Considering Bledsoe's desire to look downfield all the time instead of settling for what the defense gives you i have to wonder if Bledsoe is largely responsible.

 

[ccb04]

I don't love Roll Out offenses as a rule. I think it's useful against a dominating pass rushing team who can apply pressure from the edge but not as a staple of offense. I would much rather use screens, draws, play action and extensive short passing routes to the backs/flanker screens. For use, the problem with roll outs are that we can't stop the pressure right up the gut. When the pressure comes straight up the middle, a slow footed QB often gets tracked down by the pressure up the middle. Also, you limit your field by cutting it in half, so to speak. Lastly, we don't have a QB who is very accurate with the pass while on the move. IE, he can't snap off a great throw to an open WR on the run. He has to stop, set up and aquire his receiver. Because our QB has to basically set up again, he's going to be very vulnerable to a major hit from an on coming rusher with a head of steam. You see a lot of QBs get hurt off this type of pass rush. You get a fast LB or DE coming off the edge to nail your QB and something has to give. Some Roll Out is good just to slow the pass rush (one more thing for the defense to have to guard against) but by and large, I don't think it fits Bledsoe very well. JMO of course.

I agree 100%. Screens, quick 3 step drops/slants, shotgun, ect. Then sprinkle in the occassional moving pocket play. Also, I think we should utilize more 3 WR sets. One or two guys running routes isn't getting it done. Teams can focus on one or two guys rather easily as we've seen ... and then Bledsoe seemingly holds onto the ball even longer waiting for something to develope.

 

[percyhoward]

Green Bay used a quick passing system for the most part and the result was 0 sacks for the Eagles.

Against the cowboys, the Eagles generated 7 sacks.

The following week, the Eagles played the New Orleans Saints who mixed up a short passing game with deep strikes.

The Eagles had 0 sacks against the Saints.

Percentage of Plays from Shotgun (vs Phi)
GB: 30% (for both halves)
Dal: 5%
NO: 10%

Passes to RB's on 1st and 2nd down (vs Phi)
GB: 9
Dal: 4
NO: 11

 

[dwmyers]

The positives of a roll out style offense. Need your input and help.

/* snip */

Any help from X vs O type posters would be great. Still learning.

John

The "King" of the moving pocket was Hank Stram. You might start looking for bios of the man, particularly ones that let him expound on his theory of play.

A lot of it, though, is common sense. If the opposing team has a great defensive end, let your QB run away from him. The downside is pretty much the same as running the option at the pro level. Do it too often, and someone is going to plant your QB into six feet of ground. Others I think have mentioned the narrowing of the field, and it takes a guy with a Favre class arm to throw across the field after a rollout.

If your QB is a running threat, then the rollout can sometimes freeze a defender between the QB and his receiver. If the defenders float back to the receiver, then the QB .. even a Bledsoe .. can run ( example: the Eagles game this year).

David.

 

[JBond]

Shameless bump

 

[CrazyCowboy]

Hey, Bledsoe can do a roll out ....sometimes.