The US Marines tested all-male squads against mixed-gender ones

JohnnyTheFox

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The results are not suprising.........



In 2013, the US military lifted its ban on women serving in combat. Shortly after, the Marine Corps began what it calls an “unprecedented research effort” to understand the impact of gender integration on its combat forces. That took the form of a year-long experiment called the Ground Combat Element Integrated Task Force, in which 400 Marines—100 of them female—trained for combat together and then undertook a simulated deployment, with every facet of their experience measured and scrutinized.


All branches of the military are facing a January 1, 2016, deadline to open all combat roles to women. The Marine Corps is using this experiment to decide whether to request exceptions to that mandate. The Corps’ summary of the experiment, posted online today by NPR, concludes that combat teams were less effective when they included women.


Overall, the report says, all-male teams and crews outperformed mixed-gender ones on 93 out of 134 tasks evaluated. All-male teams were universally faster “in each tactical movement.” On “lethality,” the report says:


All-male 0311 (rifleman) infantry squads had better accuracy compared to gender-integrated squads. There was a notable difference between genders for every individual weapons system (i.e. M4, M27, and M203) within the 0311 squads, except for the probability of hit & near miss with the M4.


And:


All-male infantry crew-served weapons teams engaged targets quicker and registered more hits on target as compared to gender-integrated infantry crew-served weapons teams, with the exception of M2 accuracy.


And:


All-male squads, teams and crews and gender-integrated squads, teams, and crews had a noticeable difference in their performance of the basic combat tasks of negotiating obstacles and evacuating casualties. For example, when negotiating the wall obstacle, male Marines threw their packs to the top of the wall, whereas female Marines required regular assistance in getting their packs to the top. During casualty evacuation assessments, there were notable differences in execution times between all-male and gender-integrated groups, except in the case where teams conducted a casualty evacuation as a one-Marine fireman’s carry of another (in which case it was most often a male Marine who “evacuated” the casualty)


The report also says that female Marines had higher rates of injury throughout the experiment.



Such conclusions may be disheartening to proponents of gender integration in combat, and certainly put a damper on the news that the Army’s ranger school recently graduated its first female soldiers. The tests come with at least one important caveat: As the Marine Corps Times notes, many of of the male study participants had previously served in combat units, whereas female participants, by necessity, came directly from infantry schools or from noncombat jobs.


The Marine Corps summary report does not indicate or suggest that the Marines will be asking for an exception to the military’s integration mandate. However, it does quote this somber section of a 1992 government study on gender integration in the armed forces:


A military unit at maximum combat effectiveness is a military unit least likely to suffer casualties. Winning in war is often only a matter of inches, and unnecessary distraction or any dilution of the combat effectiveness puts the mission and lives in jeopardy. Risking the lives of a military unit in combat to provide career opportunities or accommodate the personal desires or interests of an individual, or group of individuals, is more than bad military judgment. It is morally wrong.
 

Longboysfan

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So it points to they need to get women more combat training and maybe try the experiment again.
But basic results on speed will still stay about the same.
 

darthseinfeld

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Being a former 03, my issue with the integration of women was simply due to physical size. My first couple years in the Corps were pre Iraq and we did extensive training for the mountains of Afghanistan and North Korea. This includes 20-35 mile hikes once every other week with a combat of 80 to 100 pounds. Thats an essential task of the job, and due to he physical limitions of the average woman, its too much for you to realistically expect.

And since we are talking infantry here. " Average" woman is the key word here. Not "exceptional". Its not SF where you have to earn a spot, the infantry takes anyone who signs up for it.
 

DFWJC

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A side note.
I heard today on radio that about 15 years ago, the 203rd ranked male tennis player, Karsten Braash, played both Williams sisters--one set each.
He won 6-1 and 6-2.

Serena won the US Open in 1999, but I suspect she's better now. But it does add perspective.
 

Stryker44

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A side note.
I heard today on radio that about 15 years ago, the 203rd ranked male tennis player, Karsten Braash, played both Williams sisters--one set each.
He won 6-1 and 6-2.

Serena won the US Open in 1999, but I suspect she's better now. But it does add perspective.

That's hard to believe - you'd think Serena would be able to beat everyone outside the top 20 or so on the mens side.
 

DFWJC

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That's hard to believe - you'd think Serena would be able to beat everyone outside the top 20 or so on the mens side.

Not even close.

In fact, Serena is the one who claimed she could beat anyone outside the top 200. So this guy stepped up.
He was a chain smoker who smoked between sets...lol.
He claims he had a beer before the match--but nobody can prove it.

"
1998: Karsten Braasch vs. the Williams sisters[edit]
Another event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open[33] between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams, aged 17 and 16 respectively, had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked below 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple bottles of ice cold lager."[34] The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park,[35] after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two beers. He first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2.[36] Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance." He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun."[37] Braasch said the big difference was that men can chase down shots much easier, and that men put spin on the ball that the women can't handle. The Williams sisters adjusted their claim to beating men outside the top 350.
"

Anyway, even though she was already winning grand Slams, Serena was not at her peak way back then.
 

Doomsday101

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I have always believed that if a person (man or woman) can meet the high standards they should be given the chance be it police, firefighters or military. However standards must remain high not lowered to allow people into these fields. To much is at risk to ever lower standards for the purpose of inclusion
 

Jammer

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That's hard to believe - you'd think Serena would be able to beat everyone outside the top 20 or so on the mens side.

I read a book titled Andy Roddick Beat Me with a Frying Pan: Taking the Field with Pro Athletes and Olympic Legends to Answer Sports Fans' Burning Questions and there was a whole chapter about men and women competing in sports. The tennis match referenced above was covered in the chapter. The match wasn't even as close as the score (which wasn't close by any stretch). The guy got bored playing them and started hot dogging it. After the match admitted they were completely outclassed.

The author showed once boys hit puberty all equality in athletic endeavors stop and males far surpass females in athletic endeavors. If you look at women's Olympic records they closely resemble boy's high school records. Even in sports where there shouldn't be an advantage for men (billiards, darts, etc.) men still excelled when male and female pros compete together. That's why saying a boy's state HS basketball team couldn't beat the CT women's basketball team when they were winning 80+ games in a row is laughable. The boy's HS team would win and it wouldn't be close. The women play below the rim, the men play above. They're faster, stronger, and can jump higher.

Men and women are just built differently, and it happened that way for our species survival.
 

Rockport

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Being a former 03, my issue with the integration of women was simply due to physical size. My first couple years in the Corps were pre Iraq and we did extensive training for the mountains of Afghanistan and North Korea. This includes 20-35 mile hikes once every other week with a combat of 80 to 100 pounds. Thats an essential task of the job, and due to he physical limitions of the average woman, its too much for you to realistically expect.

And since we are talking infantry here. " Average" woman is the key word here. Not "exceptional". Its not SF where you have to earn a spot, the infantry takes anyone who signs up for it.

I spent 20+ years in the Marines and on more than one occasion I had WM's finish 25 mile hikes where 10-15 males would drop out. But I agree with you, those are the exceptions. I think those WM'S who want to serve in a combat unit should be allowed. In every platoon every Marine has there strengths and weaknesses and platoon Sgt's adapt based on those and can easily accommodate each individual. Now the WM must be able to pass the same PFT as the males.
 

trickblue

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That's hard to believe - you'd think Serena would be able to beat everyone outside the top 20 or so on the mens side.

Just sounded funny... Wikipedia...

Braasch competed in a "Battle of the Sexes" contest against Venus Williams and Serena Williams at the 1998 Australian Open when he was ranked 203. A decade and a half older than the sisters, Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple bottles of ice cold lager."[2] He nonetheless defeated both sisters, playing a single set against each, beating Serena 6–1 and Venus 6–2​
 

65fastback2plus2

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im far more concerned with the emotional trauma difference...not only physically but emotionally, men and women are created far differently in that aspect.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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The answer would need to be intrejected with the massive amount of equipment to carry.

I don't understand where you are going here but that's OK. What I was getting at with the Israeli thing is that the answers to the question of women in combat may surprise you.
 

DFWJC

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I have always believed that if a person (man or woman) can meet the high standards they should be given the chance be it police, firefighters or military. However standards must remain high not lowered to allow people into these fields. To much is at risk to ever lower standards for the purpose of inclusion
I agree.
Everyone should be given a fair shot. Then the grading should also be on equal status--let the results speak for themselves.
 

Jammer

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I don't understand where you are going here but that's OK. What I was getting at with the Israeli thing is that the answers to the question of women in combat may surprise you.

I'm guessing they do well?
 

darthseinfeld

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I spent 20+ years in the Marines and on more than one occasion I had WM's finish 25 mile hikes where 10-15 males would drop out. But I agree with you, those are the exceptions. I think those WM'S who want to serve in a combat unit should be allowed. In every platoon every Marine has there strengths and weaknesses and platoon Sgt's adapt based on those and can easily accommodate each individual. Now the WM must be able to pass the same PFT as the males.

Thats the only with the infantry. Its pretty open door, so its not just the exeptional, its the average and even below average. I have no doubt in my mind that exeptional women can go step for step with even the exeptional male.
 

Doomsday101

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I agree.
Everyone should be given a fair shot. Then the grading should also be on equal status--let the results speak for themselves.

Exactly. Maintain high standards and then allow people the chance to meet those standards. If they can then they have earned the right if not then they should not be given the opportunity man or woman. When lives are at stake social standards can take a back seat.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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I'm guessing they do well?

I am hesitant to say one way or the other Jammer. I don't want to start a holy war over this issue but the data is interesting. Check it out an see what conclusion you reach. I will simply say that the way women in the Israeli armed forces, as reported by U.S. media is somewhat overstated.
 
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