Thinking through the OL mess

[DLCassidy]

Let's accept a couple things first. BP is not going to start any rookies on OL this year. Since there really aren't any primo guards other than Hutch, who IMO isn't going anywhere, at the end of the day Larry Allen takes a pay cut and stays for one more year. We draft LA's replacement Taitusi "Deuce" Lutui in round 2.

2nd thing...Al Johnson. IMO BP wants to upgrade this position but I don't think he's ready to give up yet on Al. That means no Lecharles Bentley. But with the Jets in cap hell it could mean a 2 year bandaid of Kevin Mawae could be in our future if he becomes a cap casualty. Johnson has this season to show BP he's the future or center becomes a priority next year. Mawae and Johnson would make a solid rotation at center this year. How many snaps Al gets depends on what he does with his body in the offseason.

RT...Rob Petiti...Marco Columbo....Torrin Tucker...stop me when you hear something resembling a sure fire starter. IMO we need insurance at RT and LT. Again the solution could come from the BP old boys club in the form of Jason Fabini who is also a likely cap cut. A BP draft pick with experience at both tackle positions this guy would move in to the RT position unless someone on the above list takes a quantum leap forward. And he serves as a viable backup for FA if he should (GOD FORBID) get hurt again. Makes so much sense it could actually happen.

This lineup could be solid.

Adams- Allen- Mawae- Rivera- Fabini

backups (dressed) Johnson-Petitti- Lutui

 

[neosapien23]

Let's accept a couple things first. BP is not going to start any rookies on OL this year. Since there really aren't any primo guards other than Hutch, who IMO isn't going anywhere, at the end of the day Larry Allen takes a pay cut and stays for one more year. We draft LA's replacement Taitusi "Deuce" Lutui in round 2.

2nd thing...Al Johnson. IMO BP wants to upgrade this position but I don't think he's ready to give up yet on Al. That means no Lecharles Bentley. But with the Jets in cap hell it could mean a 2 year bandaid of Kevin Mawae could be in our future if he becomes a cap casualty. Johnson has this season to show BP he's the future or center becomes a priority next year. Mawae and Johnson would make a solid rotation at center this year. How many snaps Al gets depends on what he does with his body in the offseason.

RT...Rob Petiti...Marco Columbo....Torrin Tucker...stop me when you hear something resembling a sure fire starter. IMO we need insurance at RT and LT. Again the solution could come from the BP old boys club in the form of Jason Fabini who is also a likely cap cut. A BP draft pick with experience at both tackle positions this guy would move in to the RT position unless someone on the above list takes a quantum leap forward. And he serves as a viable backup for FA if he should (GOD FORBID) get hurt again. Makes so much sense it could actually happen.

This lineup could be solid.

Adams- Allen- Mawae- Rivera- Fabini

backups (dressed) Johnson-Petitti- Lutui

You have the right idea, but picked the wrong FAs. Why sign 30+ year old players. Dallas could sign Backus, Gurode, and Fontui to relatively moderate contracts. We have no choice but to stick with Al Johnsnon. We could trade down from the 18th pick and draft McNeil and Lutui to take over in future years.

Adams - Fonutui/ Lutui - Johnson/Gurode - Rivera - Backus

McNeil could take over for Adams in a few years or he could take Backus's job in 2 years. Gurode and Johnson could fight it out. The winner of Lutui and Fonutui could start. If Rivera is still not the same either Gurode or the loser of the Fonutui/ Lutui battle could start on the RG position.

 

[Rush 2112]

Yes, of course all 80 game 80 starts LT's from Michigan sign moderate contracts. Backus will get moderate Karee McKenzie money.

 

[neosapien23]

Yes, of course all 80 game 80 starts LT's from Michigan sign moderate contracts. Backus will get moderate Karee McKenzie money.

I don't know if he will get that much. He didn't play as well as McKenzie. If he does sign for an astronomical figure than Barry should be signed instead. Barry and McNeil could fight it out for the RT spot. I just don't want anymore 30+ year old linemen.

 

[Eddie]

I don't know if he will get that much. He didn't play as well as McKenzie. If he does sign for an astronomical figure than Barry should be signed instead. Barry and McNeil could fight it out for the RT spot. I just don't want anymore 30+ year old linemen.

You mean to tell me Offensive Linemen don't peak at 40?

I thought it was the unspoken rule in this forum that Offensive Linemen don't reach their peak until they're 38.

:bang2:

 

[AbeBeta]

This lineup could be solid.

Adams- Allen- Mawae- Rivera- Fabini

backups (dressed) Johnson-Petitti- Lutui

that lineup would also be very very old.

keep in mind that BP is all about building a team for the future. to do that you have to live with some growing pains.

 

[neosapien23]

that lineup would also be very very old.

keep in mind that BP is all about building a team for the future. to do that you have to live with some growing pains.

Fabini and Mawae have injury concerns. I would not be at all surpised to see them Rivera out in the near future.

 

[Homerun Trot]

Let's accept a couple things first. BP is not going to start any rookies on OL this year. Since there really aren't any primo guards other than Hutch, who IMO isn't going anywhere, at the end of the day Larry Allen takes a pay cut and stays for one more year. We draft LA's replacement Taitusi "Deuce" Lutui in round 2.

2nd thing...Al Johnson. IMO BP wants to upgrade this position but I don't think he's ready to give up yet on Al. That means no Lecharles Bentley. But with the Jets in cap hell it could mean a 2 year bandaid of Kevin Mawae could be in our future if he becomes a cap casualty. Johnson has this season to show BP he's the future or center becomes a priority next year. Mawae and Johnson would make a solid rotation at center this year. How many snaps Al gets depends on what he does with his body in the offseason.

RT...Rob Petiti...Marco Columbo....Torrin Tucker...stop me when you hear something resembling a sure fire starter. IMO we need insurance at RT and LT. Again the solution could come from the BP old boys club in the form of Jason Fabini who is also a likely cap cut. A BP draft pick with experience at both tackle positions this guy would move in to the RT position unless someone on the above list takes a quantum leap forward. And he serves as a viable backup for FA if he should (GOD FORBID) get hurt again. Makes so much sense it could actually happen.

This lineup could be solid.

Adams- Allen- Mawae- Rivera- Fabini

backups (dressed) Johnson-Petitti- Lutui

Good post. We need experience along the o-line. Very few guys are good right away, and we can't afford to let another rook take his lumps and get Drew killed. Mawae would give this line an attitude that it lacked last year. Rivera sounded like he would bring that, but it didn't happen.

 

[DLCassidy]

You have the right idea, but picked the wrong FAs. Why sign 30+ year old players. Dallas could sign Backus, Gurode, and Fontui to relatively moderate contracts. We have no choice but to stick with Al Johnsnon. We could trade down from the 18th pick and draft McNeil and Lutui to take over in future years.

Adams - Fonutui/ Lutui - Johnson/Gurode - Rivera - Backus

McNeil could take over for Adams in a few years or he could take Backus's job in 2 years. Gurode and Johnson could fight it out. The winner of Lutui and Fonutui could start. If Rivera is still not the same either Gurode or the loser of the Fonutui/ Lutui battle could start on the RG position.

Your approach makes no sense. Backus is a decent LT who wants to play where he has always played- LT. He will very likely stay in Detroit to do just that but he will NOT get short money. He will NOT sign here to play RT nor will we force FA to RT. It's not going to happen. And in the event we did, we would certainly not then turn around and use our 1st round pick on a tackle so he can watch two high priced guys play ahead of him.

Fonutui is an out of shape heart attack waiting to happen. Pass.

Mawae may be old but he's a leader and still has some gas in the tank IMO. If healthy he is a big upgrade over Johnson and Gurode. He fits because he allows us to continue to develop Johnson. At his age and coming off an injury he won't break the bank.

The same goes for Fabini. He's 31. Not that old for an offensive lineman but experienced at both tackle spots. A younger more flexible less expensive option than Runyan. We're only going to keep 8-9 OL men, 7-8 of them will dress. We need guys that can play multiple positions. We're not going to get younger at every slot in one year. The most pressing two issues right now are a starter at RT that can play LT if needed and a viable replacement for LA. Assuming BP is not sold on Peterman, we need to draft that. My plan allows us to have a much improved and deeper OL for this year and still have our 1st round pick for another need.

 

[neosapien23]

Your approach makes no sense. Backus is a decent LT who wants to play where he has always played- LT. He will very likely stay in Detroit to do just that but he will NOT get short money. He will NOT sign here to play RT nor will we force FA to RT. It's not going to happen. And in the event we did, we would certainly not then turn around and use our 1st round pick on a tackle so he can watch two high priced guys play ahead of him.

Fonutui is an out of shape heart attack waiting to happen. Pass.

Mawae may be old but he's a leader and still has some gas in the tank IMO. If healthy he is a big upgrade over Johnson and Gurode. He fits because he allows us to continue to develop Johnson. At his age and coming off an injury he won't break the bank.

The same goes for Fabini. He's 31. Not that old for an offensive lineman but experienced at both tackle spots. A younger more flexible less expensive option than Runyan. We're only going to keep 8-9 OL men, 7-8 of them will dress. We need guys that can play multiple positions. We're not going to get younger at every slot in one year. The most pressing two issues right now are a starter at RT that can play LT if needed and a viable replacement for LA. Assuming BP is not sold on Peterman, we need to draft that. My plan allows us to have a much improved and deeper OL for this year and still have our 1st round pick for another need.

Fonutui is a low risk signing. He will be very cheap. McNeil could sit for 2 years behind Adams before his release. Why look for a replacement when RT is a problem. The whole point is to sign players for the long haul. Sign Backus and Keep McNeil on the bench. Adams will not be aroung forever. When he leaves in 2 years, we will already have his replacement. Mawae and Fabini are done. They will not be good players anymore. Didn't we already learn this leason from Rivera?

We need to draft our future starters. McNeil and Guilles hopefully.

 

[DLCassidy]

that lineup would also be very very old.

keep in mind that BP is all about building a team for the future. to do that you have to live with some growing pains.

You also have to be realistic about who's out there in the market. Look at the choices- it's not all that pretty. Fabini is the best option, if available, for our needs IMO. That doesn't mean Petitti has no future here. It doesn't mean Johnson doesn't. It doesn't mean Lutui doesn't, if drafted. We will get younger still over time but if you're looking for more than 1 1st day pick on OL this year, I think you'll be disapointed.

 

[neosapien23]

You also have to be realistic about who's out there in the market. Look at the choices- it's not all that pretty. Fabini is the best option, if available, for our needs IMO. That doesn't mean Petitti has no future here. It doesn't mean Johnson doesn't. It doesn't mean Lutui doesn't, if drafted. We will get younger still over time but if you're looking for more than 1 1st day pick on OL this year, I think you'll be disapointed.

If the best players avialable are linemen, they should be drafted. Khalif Barnes was a better player than Burnett. When you draft for need, bad things happen.

 

[DLCassidy]

Fonutui is a low risk signing. He will be very cheap. McNeil could sit for 2 years behind Adams before his release. Why look for a replacement when RT is a problem. The whole point is to sign players for the long haul. Sign Backus and Keep McNeil on the bench. Adams will not be aroung forever. When he leaves in 2 years, we will already have his replacement. Mawae and Fabini are done. They will not be good players anymore. Didn't we already learn this leason from Rivera?

We need to draft our future starters. McNeil and Guilles hopefully.

If we drafted a 1st round player at any position with the idea of him watching for 2 years I'd be shocked and disapointed. But I really doubt we're going to go OL in round 1 anyway so it's nothing to worry about IMO.

Rivera is a big money signing. Mawae will not be. Fabini is only 31, not that old. Show me the signing that's without flaws and I'll sign up for that.

As I said, I'd have Fabini at RT. But he can play LT if needed. After last year I'd think you could see the benefit of that.

Why the love for Fonutui? SD couldn't wait to get rid of him. Now Minnesota is letting him go after less than 1 year. This doesn't concern you? It should.

Just remember BP is not going to go OL, OL in round 1 and 2. And he's not going to start another rookie tackle. That means no OL in round 1. That means no McNeil. The pick we make in round 1 needs to have some impact next year and I believe it will.

 

[neosapien23]

If we drafted a 1st round player at any position with the idea of him watching for 2 years I'd be shocked and disapointed. But I really doubt we're going to go OL in round 1 anyway so it's nothing to worry about IMO.

Rivera is a big money signing. Mawae will not be. Fabini is only 31, not that old. Show me the signing that's without flaws and I'll sign up for that.

As I said, I'd have Fabini at RT. But he can play LT if needed. After last year I'd think you could see the benefit of that.

Why the love for Fonutui? SD couldn't wait to get rid of him. Now Minnesota is letting him go after less than 1 year. This doesn't concern you? It should.

Just remember BP is not going to go OL, OL in round 1 and 2. And he's not going to start another rookie tackle. That means no OL in round 1. That means no McNeil. The pick we make in round 1 needs to have some impact next year and I believe it will.

Valid points, but whats the big deal of sitting a player two years. Wouldn't you want Adams replacement to be on the team? What if Backus or Adams suffered a season ending injury? I think Fabini will not be cheap. I am not to fond of paing a 31 year old player a 8 to 10 million dollar signing bonus. You are right about Mawae, but I don't want to take any playing time away from Johnson. Fonutui will be cheap. If he can't get his weight under control we can cut him. Low risk, high reward.

 

[AbeBeta]

If the best players avialable are linemen, they should be drafted. Khalif Barnes was a better player than Burnett. When you draft for need, bad things happen.

We'll be kicking ourselves over that one for a while.

I really don't think Burnett was a "need" pick though - BP had his OLBs in Ware and Singleton - and Burnett wasn't exactly a prototypical 3-4 guy. In fact, BP remarked right after the draft that he saw him as an ILB in the future. I think it was a simple case of our scouts having Burnett rated higher.

 

[neosapien23]

We'll be kicking ourselves over that one for a while.

I really don't think Burnett was a "need" pick though - BP had his OLBs in Ware and Singleton - and Burnett wasn't exactly a prototypical 3-4 guy. In fact, BP remarked right after the draft that he saw him as an ILB in the future. I think it was a simple case of our scouts having Burnett rated higher.

I think BP thought Burnett would start this coming year. I would have rather taken Khalif Barnes. We wouldn't even be talking about the RT position right now. I will be very dissappointed if Burnett cannot start next year.

 

[Marty R]

Marc Columbo is an x factor right now....he was a day one draft pick by Chicago, but was injured. (I believe it was a sever quadricep injury) He has size and speed, and if he can overcome the injury thing, he very well could be dominate. (at least I'm hopeing for just that.)

I see Jerry being a bit gun shy on dropping a bunch of money on another FA for the O-line, especially one older than 32/33. My money is on lower tier FA being signed and hoping that it works to our advantage.

 

[Alexander]

Marc Columbo is an x factor right now.....

He is a zero factor.

If this team is counting on him, then we are not committed to winning football.

I would hope we are smarter than that.

 

[Marty R]

He is a zero factor.

If this team is counting on him, then we are not committed to winning football.

I would hope we are smarter than that.

The guy is 6'8 317.
That doesn't intrigue you in the least? He's started as a rookie, got hurt and may/may not have recovered fully from those injuries. He has 3(?) years in the league. He either makes a show of what he can do or gets cut. My question is, based on size alone, wouldn't you want to see what he is capable of?

 

[ddh33]

The easy thing for everyone to say is that the whole line needs to be blown up. It's not very practical though.

Unlike many, I don't think the guys here are lost causes. I think that there were some young players who struggled to play consistently because of a lack of experience. I think some of the more experienced players struggled to maintain consistency because of age.

We know some things about Bill though:

1. He doesn't give up on young players that fast. Most people would have cut Gurode or Tucker a long time ago. Bill hasn't, and he even seems to want Andre back again.

With that in mind, anyone who is writing off Al Johnson and Rob Petitti are making a big mistake. Writing off Peterman is too, in my opinion. Those guys will be on the team next season, and they will likely have a pretty prominent role.

2. Bill loves leaders.

Larry Allen was someone who was always shy and never said much. All last season Bill talked about how far along that Larry had come in that regard. He talked about what a help he had been to Torrin Tucker on the left side. Marco Rivera was also talked up a lot last season for the same reason. Allen is a question marlk because of his salary, but he's also a Cowboys great. He has a very strong supporter in Flozell Adams. My hunch is that Larry is back again.

3. Bill likes to rejuvenate old players too.

A guy like Columbo was signed last season and told to get himself ready for 2006. He's a BC grad. He has a pedigree. I think he's got a real chance to work his way in to this situation.

4. Bill loves versatile players.

If you give Parcells more options, then you are more likely to make the team and contribute on game day. A guy who play multiple positions has a big advantage.


With all of those things in mind, here is what I come up with:

Dallas will sign another RT to make sure they have the position covered. I don't think they will go "high profile" though. I think Rob will be given every chance to lock that position up for a long time. Someone like Kevin Barry is interesting to me because Barry could be a helper in the run game as a third tackle, as he's done in Green Bay. He's someone who has played with Rivera, so there could be some chemistry. He's also a guy who has been a quality backup, and he looks like a guy who might even be a very good guard if he was needed to move inside. Other tackle options who stand out to me are Tom Ashworth, who has played both tackle spots and even some goal-line FB, and Jason Fabinin, who was drafted by Parcells and has played both tackle spots.

I think Gurode will be a bigger priority than some think. If he decides to leave, Dallas will try to find a veteran to help them out while not breaking the bank. McKinney from Houston might be an option. So might someone like Melvin Fowler.

I think Dallas would be interested in adding a young guard because of the age of the starters, but it doesn't necessarily need to be someone picked in the early rounds. If someone falls that makes sense I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't think it will be a huge priority. I think Bill believes he can find someone serviceable late.