This could ruin the game forever

[Zekeats]

Bottom line solution is if they went back to leather helmets. No more leading with your head, no more head to head contact from o lineman to d lineman. Safe, and an easy way to change things. It is the easiest and safest they could do.

 

[Section446]

I truly believe that the NFL only has another decade or so of dominance. The rules, the injuries, the lawsuits, it's all going in the wrong direction.

 

[TwoDeep3]

It will be the NFL's responsibility if a jury decides someday that the NFL didn't take feasible steps to minimize risk and levies a multi-billion (with a "b") judgment against it. Player "choice" will be a tough argument to make when some lawyer is painting the NFL owners as a bunch of rich pimps preying on mostly poor and inexperienced kids so they can use their bodies for a dangerous sport -- a sport that the owners could have made less dangerous with a little more care and money.

That is because juries are notorious for awarding large settlements because they feel an insurance company will pay the freight. And while most here have heard of the coffee burn award of 2 million for a woman who decided to hold the cup between her legs at a drive thru and got scalded, the actual award was much less once the appeal went through.

The only people who made out were the lawyers, who always are the winners of civil law suits.

Tort reform would take the real pimps out of this game. The ones in the pin-striped suits.

Unless you've been sued and written check after check to re-up the escrow so two law firms can correspond for eighteen months before a settlement is offered at the last minute, this might not make sense.

Personal responsibility is at the crux of this issue. Just like the relatives of dead smokers who claim they just didn't know you can get cancer so they can collect the big payday for Aunt Betty smoking Camel unfiltereds since 1938, finally croaking from emphysema at the age of 94.

And a jury will look past the logic and award her relatives millions for something she did willingly.

I don't climb mountains because of the risk. If I did should my survivors have the right to sue Colorado because I fell off PIke's Peak?

They didn't put up a clear cut warning sign and offer me a seminar on the dangers of climbing and the risk of falling.

 

[Hoofbite]

There are games where the wireless communication between the QB and sidelines quits working. It's going to be difficult to keep all 53 sensors per team continually transmitting data to the sidelines without any technical glitches.

Easily the best comment in the thread.

There are a number of hurdles that would have to be addressed. If I were a player I'd just stand on the sideline and whack my helmet into everything. Send so many concussions to the computer that they just assume there's a malfunction and have to ignore it.

 

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Oh, I see. You're one of those people who like to insist that they're right, even when they have been shown to be wrong. You post a single-line blanket statement that you think solves the problem an elucidates the great divide between US law and Canadian law on waivers -- and then find out that the approach is actually very much the same, with waivers being respected in certain circumstances in both jurisdictions. Just not in the more complicated NFL-related circumstances actually being discussed and which you piped in on.

And I will argue with you. It's what I do. For a living.

so do I, so I know what I am about talking about. I am not one of those internet posters who thinks he knows more law than lawyers and judges. In my jurisdiction, for the most part, they are valid and a defence. Whether they are in your jurisdiction, who cares, not me. Most people are sophisticated enough to understand waivers and they are binding in British Columbia since that Court of Appeal decision.

 

[Hoofbite]

Whatever happened to taking responsibility for your actions? It seems that in this day and age, it's always someone else's fault...man up and accept the consequences of playing a hard-hitting and potentially dangerous sport. Geez

The big problem is that up until just a few years back, the NFL was doing everything they could to ignore any sort of link. It wasn't until they started popping players for defenseless receiver hits and tightening up the QB rules that they really started to just face facts.

For a long time the NFL refused to acknowledge the connection. What you see now is their effort to have something that they can point to when the day comes that they have to pay for all the longterm damages.

 

[tskyler]

I am not very worried about the sensors. Surprised no one actually talked about the new tech. Think it's interesting. Understand, Reebok/MC2 now have a very thin cap that goes inside the helmet. This radically changes the accelerometer data stream. You now have insight on the forces hitting the head. Means better data for both game day and long term helmet design. Who knows if the Reebok solution lives up to its promise but a similar technology will soon.

If you accept that the NFL is going to pull all players with a concussion. Getting data that reduces the number of concussions long term means fewer players out on game day is a win in my book.

I am most excited about this for the high school level. I have a son playing freshman ball. He's very very very unlikely to be a pro but I am happy that in the future kids who are playing for fun will have fewer long term health risks. This technology is already cheaper than most of the protective equipment Texas high schools are required to use.

Get used to the fact that football players are going to start getting covered in sensors (all sports players will) There is zero chance this doesn't happen. My hope and realistic belief is that the data crunching means MANY fewer injuries.

A subtle but important point to make is that with data, the old wisdom about equipment advances is wrong. (I.E. Boxing Gloves, Leather Helmets) With massive data and 3d printing, it will be possible to make near concussion proof helmets, perfect knee braces (almost zero mobility reduction, insane protection levels), etc. This is not sci-fi. We are talking <10 years from now. (Note: I am talking about protection from other players in the near future. It will take longer to create internal tech that keeps a player from from pushing his own body past all structural limits)

Will this change the game? Yes. But, I would argue not in a bad way. If players run as fast or faster. Hit as hard as harder. But with 99% less season ending injuries. How would that suck?

Yes, the players are in high tech bubble wrap but the look and play the same. You can even imagine old rules coming back. If there are no knee injuries or concussions, why keep quarterback protection rules in place? Heck maybe even they experiment with a flying wedge.

A quick note on liability. I am on the extreme end of player be ware. I would have no problem with allowing players to hunt each other with machine guns and sign a waiver but it kind of pointless to argue about it. The legal atmosphere isn't changing.

Sky

 

[tantrix1969]

And, as I keep pointing out to you -- as I know a bit more about the law than you -- personal choice by an employee doesn't necessarily absolve an employer (like the NFL) from taking new potential risks into account and attempting to deal with them. So the NFL has legal issues (aside from any moral ones) that it must deal with.

I have no idea if injury-sensing helmets will work as intended. But potential brain injury -- more so than injuries to joints or muscles -- presents serious quality of life issues, and the NFL is right to take whatever steps might protect players from those type of injuries. And fans who whine about their enjoyment of a violent sport being impaired because of extra steps taken to protect players should - in my personal opinion -- be ashamed of themselves.

Easily the best comment in the thread.

There are a number of hurdles that would have to be addressed. If I were a player I'd just stand on the sideline and whack my helmet into everything. Send so many concussions to the computer that they just assume there's a malfunction and have to ignore it.

lol can definitely see that happening

 

[TwoDeep3]

. The legal atmosphere isn't changing.
Sky

Because we have ceded the rights to make decisions about life to lawyers in this world. And while someone may attempt to make a link between a lawyer and an altruistic point-of-view, the only true aspect to life that a lawyer understands and covets is BILLABLE HOURS.

We all have something we hold dear to our hearts. Assuming lawyers actually have a heart, BILLABLE HOURS is their mantra, Deity, and the only true thing worthwhile on this plane of consciousness.

 

[Gadfly22]

so do I, so I know what I am about talking about. I am not one of those internet posters who thinks he knows more law than lawyers and judges. In my jurisdiction, for the most part, they are valid and a defence. Whether they are in your jurisdiction, who cares, not me. Most people are sophisticated enough to understand waivers and they are binding in British Columbia since that Court of Appeal decision.

The problem -- which you've had from the beginning in this thread -- is your overbroad and simplistic statements of purported law. Waivers work, as the conclusion to the article you cited pointed out, if:

1. They are worded clearly and precisely and in understandable language.
2. They draw attention to the liability being waived.
3. The person waiving has had the chance to read and understand what is being waived.

And that second part is the important part for the current discussion, since the point at issue has been whether an NFL player can waive an unknown risk, since they can't know what liability is being waived. And the answer in just about every case I can think of is that unknown risks can't be waived. And if that's different in Canada, I'll be surprised, since it goes counter to the very heart of waiver law anywhere. You certainly haven't demonstrated it.

 

[Hoofbite]

Personally, I think part of the reason players get rocked as often as they do is because shoulder pads are much smaller than they were back in the 90s or even early 2000s.

Look at Chris Johnson's tiny little shoulder pads.

Compare that to how Barry and Emmitt looked.

I think the smaller pads allow the head to move around more when the players are hit.

If you think about from the backend concussions that occur not because of the initial contact but rather the momentum of the brain crashing into the inside of the skull, the more the helmet and head can freely move, the more momentum everything inside picks up.

Just my opinion on the matter.

 

[Cowboys22]

The problem -- which you've had from the beginning in this thread -- is your overbroad and simplistic statements of purported law. Waivers work, as the conclusion to the article you cited pointed out, if:

1. They are worded clearly and precisely and in understandable language.
2. They draw attention to the liability being waived.
3. The person waiving has had the chance to read and understand what is being waived.

And that second part is the important part for the current discussion, since the point at issue has been whether an NFL player can waive an unknown risk, since they can't know what liability is being waived. And the answer in just about every case I can think of is that unknown risks can't be waived. And if that's different in Canada, I'll be surprised, since it goes counter to the very heart of waiver law anywhere. You certainly haven't demonstrated it.

Fine, so the NFL can simply put in the waiver that concussions have been shown to have long term negative effects and can even lead to death. By signing below, you waive all rights to sue. The NFL can draw all the attention they need to on the negative impact of concussions all the way up to and including death. That all to cover anything science comes up with in the future. Sign it or go put in an application at Home Depot.

 

[Gadfly22]

Fine, so the NFL can simply put in the waiver that concussions have been shown to have long term negative effects and can even lead to death. By signing below, you waive all rights to sue. The NFL can draw all the attention they need to on the negative impact of concussions all the way up to and including death. That all to cover anything science comes up with in the future. Sign it or go put in an application at Home Depot.

Well, you just send that suggestion along to NFL legal counsel. Problem solved. Unless of course waivers get close scrutiny in court (at least in Ontario and the US) and the NFL fails to take reasonable steps to prevent serious known risks of injury despite those waivers. Not to mention the NFLPA might have some objections. But other than that, a simplistic solution like that always solves complex problems involving medical and legal issues. Get enough of those around, and we can just scrap a couple hundred years of tort and contract law. Thanks!!

 

[tskyler]

Assuming lawyers actually have a heart, BILLABLE HOURS is their mantra, Deity, and the only true thing worthwhile on this plane of consciousness.

Don't disagree in the slightest. But, duh, so what? That's the way the world works. Lawyers make up the majority of politicians and judges in all societies. It's not going to change, so liability won't change. Juries listening to sob stories and caring about the plight of a poor injured person won't change either. It's all politics and only worth discussing to vent.

If you agree, the you will have to agree that rules and equipment must adapt to the legal climate.

My point is to look at the real world and realize that NOW the change doesn't have to be a watering down of the contact we love so much. We will soon reach a point where safer can also be faster and more brutal.

I'm excited because we have a chance to ignore the politics.

One other point, think of some new opportunities as a fan for this sensor data. What if you could not only see D'Ware pound little Eli into a ball of goo but see exactly how hard he hit compared to Charles Hailey? Yes, Eli would still get up and play the next play because he's in high tech bubble wrap. And no, we will never get the old data on Hailey since the tech didn't exist. But, having D'Ware's data would sure make arguing with your great great great grandson about the softness of the 2083 Cowboys more fun. Stupid whipper snappers!

 

[coult44]

a few years of 400k and you expect them to have a couple of million on the bank? are you nuts?

Assuming you have to pay 1/3 in tax, plus a portion into pension, then there are living expensives etc

Even if you are the cheapest most miserly person on the planet, you would be lucky to save 100000 in a year.

Let's be real, most the guys making 400K are practice squad guys, most are making over at least 1M. And if you only stay in the league 4 years, well that's 4 Mill before taxes. The problem with most these guys is they try to live like the guys making 10M.

 

[TwoDeep3]

Don't disagree in the slightest. But, duh, so what? That's the way the world works. Lawyers make up the majority of politicians and judges in all societies. It's not going to change, so liability won't change. Juries listening to sob stories and caring about the plight of a poor injured person won't change either. It's all politics and only worth discussing to vent.

If you agree, the you will have to agree that rules and equipment must adapt to the legal climate.

My point is to look at the real world and realize that NOW the change doesn't have to be a watering down of the contact we love so much. We will soon reach a point where safer can also be faster and more brutal.

I'm excited because we have a chance to ignore the politics.

One other point, think of some new opportunities as a fan for this sensor data. What if you could not only see D'Ware pound little Eli into a ball of goo but see exactly how hard he hit compared to Charles Hailey? Yes, Eli would still get up and play the next play because he's in high tech bubble wrap. And no, we will never get the old data on Hailey since the tech didn't exist. But, having D'Ware's data would sure make arguing with your great great great grandson about the softness of the 2083 Cowboys more fun. Stupid whipper snappers!

Where I disagree is the personal responsibility aspect of this.

The woman who spilled coffee in her lap was holding the cup with the lid removed while trying to add sugar and or cream while the vehicle was moving.

Hello, duh - as you said - hot coffee.

But the franchise was sued and ultimately had to pay because of Attorneys who have slowly eroded personal responsibility with someone's got to get paid.

it is the personal responsibility and the legal system where there is no real justice that I find fault. I am merely;y commenting on that aspect.

 

[Cowboys22]

Well, you just send that suggestion along to NFL legal counsel. Problem solved. Unless of course waivers get close scrutiny in court (at least in Ontario and the US) and the NFL fails to take reasonable steps to prevent serious known risks of injury despite those waivers. Not to mention the NFLPA might have some objections. But other than that, a simplistic solution like that always solves complex problems involving medical and legal issues. Get enough of those around, and we can just scrap a couple hundred years of tort and contract law. Thanks!!

No one said the NFL should do nothing. Providing the safest available helmets, doctors on the sidelines, and insurance should be enough to satisfy any legal scrutiny a waiver would get. Nobody implied the NFL should let it be a free for all because players signed waivers. Give them the absolute best helmets, access to doctors at practice and on gameday, provide insurance, have rules in place discourage hits that cause concussions, and levy heavy penalties on those who break those rules. If they do all that and then have players sign airtight waivers that spell out all the risks, I think it will stand up to any legal scrutiny.

 

[SWG9]

Gadfly 22 is running this thread. Phenomenal work.

 

[Gadfly22]

No one said the NFL should do nothing. Providing the safest available helmets, doctors on the sidelines, and insurance should be enough to satisfy any legal scrutiny a waiver would get. Nobody implied the NFL should let it be a free for all because players signed waivers. Give them the absolute best helmets, access to doctors at practice and on gameday, provide insurance, have rules in place discourage hits that cause concussions, and levy heavy penalties on those who break those rules. If they do all that and then have players sign airtight waivers that spell out all the risks, I think it will stand up to any legal scrutiny.

But the NFL has to do all the things you listed -- and the safest helmets might have to include the kind of sensor technology that this thread started with. The key is keeping up with the latest research and the latest in safety -- which I think the NFL really tries to do, since it's much cheaper than any alternative. And I don't think anyone disagrees with that premise (maybe they do). The original issue was whether that new technology will somehow interfere with the essence of the game and our enjoyment of it. I come down of the side of thinking that doing those things is fine. The game has changed and will change in the future. But changes in the name of safety seem to me to be OK, waivers aside.

 

[TheCount]

I truly believe that the NFL only has another decade or so of dominance. The rules, the injuries, the lawsuits, it's all going in the wrong direction.

To be replaced by what? Baseball? Soccer?