Time Machine

stasheroo;2833937 said:
So they only drug test the Cowboys?

I doubt it.

Moss has never been the troublemaker many feared he would become.

You're right that Dallas had plenty of needs in '98, but those two #1 draft picks they wasted on the Galloway trade sure would have helped.

And they wouldn't have been chasing after receiver after receiver like they have, even to this day.

I agree with you that his trouble making rep is more fantasy than fact.

But I don't think he would have lasted in Dallas long for the same reasons he didn't last in other towns. He wants a great QB throwing him the ball, and doesn't show interest in playing is he doesn't have that.

We went through a bad QB string for much of his career, so he would have wanted out long ago.
 
stasheroo;2833937 said:
So they only drug test the Cowboys?

I doubt it.

Moss has never been the troublemaker many feared he would become.

You're right that Dallas had plenty of needs in '98, but those two #1 draft picks they wasted on the Galloway trade sure would have helped.

And they wouldn't have been chasing after receiver after receiver like they have, even to this day.

There is a difference between living in Minneapolis and living in Dallas. The organizations were also very different at that time. Moss and Dallas would not have been a good mix in his younger days.

And yes they do drug test all teams, but they more heavily scrutinize some teams more than others. Dallas is one of those teams. Moss admitting in an interview that he smokes weed would be treated way more harshly had he been playing in Dallas at the time than it was while he was in Minny.

I don't think we can be sure that Jerry doesn't still try to trade for Galloway even with Moss on the team. Irvin was lost to injury in 1999. Jerry probably still would have wanted the speedy Galloway opposite Moss. Even if he didn't he would not know what to do with those draft picks.

Things would have been different, but I still do not see Superbowls with Moss in Dallas. Moss still hasn't won a Superbowl in the places he has played, so why would it have been different in Dallas. The NFL is more than just one great player. Quincy Carter to Randy Moss is still not a winning combination.
 
Tovya;2833944 said:
I agree with you that his trouble making rep is more fantasy than fact.

But I don't think he would have lasted in Dallas long for the same reasons he didn't last in other towns. He wants a great QB throwing him the ball, and doesn't show interest in playing is he doesn't have that.

We went through a bad QB string for much of his career, so he would have wanted out long ago.

True. But, if Moss arrives in 1998 is Aikman's career extended? Remember that we still made the playoffs in 1998 and 1999. Aikman retires after 2000.

Aikman's receivers in 1998 and 1999:

1998 - Michael Irvin, Billy Davis, David Lafleur
1999 - Rocket Ismail, David Lafleur, Ernie Mills (Chris Warren actually had more catches out of the backfield.)

So 1998 would have looked like, Michael Irvin, Randy Moss and David Lafleur

And even if Michael goes down in 1999, we have Randy Moss, Rocket Ismail and Lafleur.

Emmitt's running gets a little easier at the same time, since defenses absolutely have to respect the outside receivers on both sides.
 
Tovya;2833944 said:
I agree with you that his trouble making rep is more fantasy than fact.

But I don't think he would have lasted in Dallas long for the same reasons he didn't last in other towns. He wants a great QB throwing him the ball, and doesn't show interest in playing is he doesn't have that.

We went through a bad QB string for much of his career, so he would have wanted out long ago.

I don't know if I agree with the 'great QB' assessment.

The Raiders were and still are an absolute mess and I don't blame anyone for not wanting to waste their career playing there.

I think Moss' issues had more to do with playing in that mess than anything else.

He's no saint, but I think the main thing about him is playing for a solid organization that does everything they can to win.
 
joseephuss;2833950 said:
There is a difference between living in Minneapolis and living in Dallas. The organizations were also very different at that time. Moss and Dallas would not have been a good mix in his younger days.

And yes they do drug test all teams, but they more heavily scrutinize some teams more than others. Dallas is one of those teams. Moss admitting in an interview that he smokes weed would be treated way more harshly had he been playing in Dallas at the time than it was while he was in Minny.

I don't think we can be sure that Jerry doesn't still try to trade for Galloway even with Moss on the team. Irvin was lost to injury in 1999. Jerry probably still would have wanted the speedy Galloway opposite Moss. Even if he didn't he would not know what to do with those draft picks.

Things would have been different, but I still do not see Superbowls with Moss in Dallas. Moss still hasn't won a Superbowl in the places he has played, so why would it have been different in Dallas. The NFL is more than just one great player. Quincy Carter to Randy Moss is still not a winning combination.

I have to agree concerning the heightened scrutiny in Dallas. No player can escape it and if you already have a reputation for trouble, it would be 10 times worse.
 
rcaldw;2833953 said:
True. But, if Moss arrives in 1998 is Aikman's career extended? Remember that we still made the playoffs in 1998 and 1999. Aikman retires in 2000.

Aikman's receivers in 1998 and 1999:

1998 - Michael Irvin, Billy Davis, David Lafleur
1999 - Rocket Ismail, David Lafleur, Ernie Mills (Chris Warren actually had more catches out of the backfield.)

So 1998 would have looked like, Michael Irvin, Randy Moss and David Lafleur

And even if Michael goes down in 1999, we have Randy Moss, Rocket Ismail and Lafleur.

Emmitt's running gets a little easier at the same time, since defenses absolutely have to respect the outside receivers on both sides.

I don't think so--the concussion issue wouldn't have changed. Although he might have wanted to stick around longer regardless of that.

But in a positive spin, our fans would probably have shrugged at his pot habit. We had already been through multiple cocaine incidents, and weed would have seemed like nothing at that point :)

Plus, Quincy would have had a pot smoking buddy on the team...
 
joseephuss;2833950 said:
There is a difference between living in Minneapolis and living in Dallas. The organizations were also very different at that time. Moss and Dallas would not have been a good mix in his younger days.

And yes they do drug test all teams, but they more heavily scrutinize some teams more than others. Dallas is one of those teams. Moss admitting in an interview that he smokes weed would be treated way more harshly had he been playing in Dallas at the time than it was while he was in Minny.

I don't think we can be sure that Jerry doesn't still try to trade for Galloway even with Moss on the team. Irvin was lost to injury in 1999. Jerry probably still would have wanted the speedy Galloway opposite Moss. Even if he didn't he would not know what to do with those draft picks.

Things would have been different, but I still do not see Superbowls with Moss in Dallas. Moss still hasn't won a Superbowl in the places he has played, so why would it have been different in Dallas. The NFL is more than just one great player. Quincy Carter to Randy Moss is still not a winning combination.

Ouch.

Good point there.

I'd just have to hope that one of the #1 draft picks wasted in the Galloway deal could have and would have been used on a quarterback (although I'm not sure who was available during those years, anyone know?)
 
rcaldw;2833953 said:
True. But, if Moss arrives in 1998 is Aikman's career extended? Remember that we still made the playoffs in 1998 and 1999. Aikman retires in 2000.

Aikman's receivers in 1998 and 1999:

1998 - Michael Irvin, Billy Davis, David Lafleur
1999 - Rocket Ismail, David Lafleur, Ernie Mills (Chris Warren actually had more catches out of the backfield.)

So 1998 would have looked like, Michael Irvin, Randy Moss and David Lafleur

And even if Michael goes down in 1999, we have Randy Moss, Rocket Ismail and Lafleur.

Emmitt's running gets a little easier at the same time, since defenses absolutely have to respect the outside receivers on both sides.

Why would they sign Rocket in 1999 if they already had Irvin and Moss? They probably would have still traded for James McKnight to be the #3 receiver or just re-signed Patrick Jeffers.
 
stasheroo;2833963 said:
Ouch.

Good point there.

I'd just have to hope that one of the #1 draft picks wasted in the Galloway deal could have and would have been used on a quarterback (although I'm not sure who was available during those years, anyone know?)

Top 3 QB's taken in 2001 - Michael Vick, Drew Brees, Quincy Carter :) (Who took that guy?)
Top 3 QB's taken in 2002 - David Carr, Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey
Top 3 QB's taken in 2003 - Carson Palmer (but does Moss stay patient until 2003?), Byron Leftwich, Kyle Boller
 
stasheroo;2833963 said:
Ouch.

Good point there.

I'd just have to hope that one of the #1 draft picks wasted in the Galloway deal could have and would have been used on a quarterback (although I'm not sure who was available during those years, anyone know?)

2000
Chad Pennington-1st round
Giovanni Carmazzi-3rd round
Chris Rdman
Tee Martin
Marc Bulger
Spergon Wynn
Tom Brady
Todd Husak
JsJuan Seider
Tim Rattay
Jarious Jackson
Joe Hamilton

2001
Michael Vick-1st round
Drew Brees-2nd round
Quincy Carter-2nd round
Marques Tuiasosopo-2nd
Chris Weinke
Sage Rosenfels
Jese Palmer
Mike McMahon
A.J. Feeley
Josh Booty
Josh Heupel

I doubt Dallas lands any of the QBs that could help them in those two drafts.
 
joseephuss;2833976 said:
2000
Chad Pennington-1st round
Giovanni Carmazzi-3rd round
Chris Rdman
Tee Martin
Marc Bulger
Spergon Wynn
Tom Brady
Todd Husak
JsJuan Seider
Tim Rattay
Jarious Jackson
Joe Hamilton

2001
Michael Vick-1st round
Drew Brees-2nd round
Quincy Carter-2nd round
Marques Tuiasosopo-2nd
Chris Weinke
Sage Rosenfels
Jese Palmer
Mike McMahon
A.J. Feeley
Josh Booty
Josh Heupel

I doubt Dallas lands any of the QBs that could help them in those two drafts.

Since this is a Time Machine thread, put me down for Drew Brees.

Thanks.
 
stasheroo;2833980 said:
Since this is a Time Machine thread, put me down for Drew Brees.

Thanks.

No, to get that selection, you have to move to the 1994 choice and undo the Jerry Jones as GM move. ;)
 
stasheroo;2833980 said:
Since this is a Time Machine thread, put me down for Drew Brees.

Thanks.

I would have liked Brees, but what did Jerry want is the true question? If Jerry wanted Brees in 2001 then he could have traded up to get him. Jerry armed with a 1st round pick in 2001 may have traded up to get Michael Vick instead of drafting Vick-lite Quincy Carter. That seems highly probable with Jerry's history.
 
Honestly, I think I'll change my vote to Jimmy Johnson sticking around. The direction this team would have headed for a long time to come would have dramatically changed. Plus, chances are we'd have taken home a ring in '94 as well (hell, maybe in '96 too for a 5-peat)
 
Tovya;2833990 said:
Honestly, I think I'll change my vote to Jimmy Johnson sticking around. The direction this team would have headed for a long time to come would have dramatically changed. Plus, chances are we'd have taken home a ring in '94 as well (hell, maybe in '96 too for a 5-peat)

You know, the biggest move of all may have involved something more indirect. I've often thought, after stock piling all that talent in the early 90's why Jerry Jones didn't fight AGAINST the salary cap, and free agency and all that stuff?

I think its because he thought he could go on outsmarting everyone. In reality, it served to change football for all time, and if we had been able to play by the same rules as previous decades, and kept most of our talent base, we may have won 5-7 championships in the 90's.
 
Another interesting "what if"....

What if we wind up pulling off the trade for John Elway?

We reportedly had a deal on the table with the Colts for him.
 
Bizwah;2833997 said:
Another interesting "what if"....

What if we wind up pulling off the trade for John Elway?

We reportedly had a deal on the table with the Colts for him.

That would have been 1983? That means Elway comes in behind White and we have Elway into the late 80's.

Does that change Cowboys history more, or Elway's history more? How does Elway do with the drafting that had come to characterize the Cowboys?
 
It'd be much easier to make sure that the parents of Vince Lombardi or Art Rooney never meet.
 
rcaldw;2834000 said:
That would have been 1983? That means Elway comes in behind White and we have Elway into the late 80's.

Does that change Cowboys history more, or Elway's history more? How does Elway do with the drafting that had come to characterize the Cowboys?

I think it changes both. Elway's possibly more. He would probably start into his second or third year....

We also never draft Troy Aikman.....

Not sure I like this "what if"
 
rcaldw;2833781 said:
Have you ever thought about how things could have changed had history taken a different course? If you could go back in time, which of these decisions could have/would have had the biggest impact on Dallas Cowboys history, and where we would have ended up?

Here are the rules: You can only choose 1. And you have to give your reasons why you think it would have made the largest impact on Dallas Cowboys history.

Note: I'm sure that some of you could think of better candidates but someone had to do a list :)

1. In 1964, with the media speculating about Tom Landry's job, the owner made the decision to give coach a 10 year contract. What would have happened if Clint Murchison had fired Landry?

Now, remember. Which one of these time machine moments would have impacted Cowboys history the most? You can only select one, and you have to give your reasons.

Based on your criteria the first one on the list would have had the greatest impact n the history of the Dallas Cowboys. That seems kind of obvious to me. Everything else would have been different had that one been changed (this would be true whatever one you choose to be the first one) because from that point on EVERYTHING else would have been different.

If we would have fired Landry, who would we have hired to replace him?

George Allen became a HC in 1966 maybe we would have given him a shot a year earlier. Same for Otto Graham. Maybe we would have brought in Bud Grant a couple of years before he actually became a HC.

The chances are though that we would have signed someone who would not have been a success.

The team in 1964 was Landry's team. The players were selected according to HIS criteria. He had a system that required certain body types, size, weight, etc. (RB comes to mind) as well as intelligence, particularly on defense. The players we had were brought in because they fit HIS mold. Another HC would not have the same system or set of criteria and would have worked at bringing in player that HE thought would fit HIS system.

I believe it would have delayed the success of the team yet another few years and if the HC was not successful early enough then he likely would have been replaced, setting us back yet again.

Character was also important to Landry and several of the players we had went on to define "America's Team", including Staubach. He was pretty quick to jettison guys like Duane Thomas or Hollywood Henderson when it became clear that they were not high character guys or team players.

We passed on some obvious talent in the 60s because they didn't fit Landry's style/ideal. On defense the players had to be able to fit into his "Flex" defense and not every talented player would fit it. They had to have a combination of intelligence, quickness, strength, discipline, and teamwork to be successful at it. It took a long time to put it all together but once he did it was AMAZING!

IMO the Cowboys would never have become "America's Team" without Tom Landry. He was the embodiment of that entire persona and everything that came from it. You don't get 20 consecutive winning seasons without Tom Landry. You don't get the heritage of winning, the expectation of winning without him. He was a fixture for nearly 30 years here and was the face of the Cowboys that entire time.

It's not many people you can recognize simply by the hat they wore. When I see that outline, it brings to mind everything the Cowboys have stood for throughout their history (whether that lived up to it or not is a different story of course).

Tom Landry IS the Dallas Cowboys. Remove him and we are just another football team.
:starspin :starspin :starspin :starspin :starspin
 

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