To build a pass rush..with what?

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Nigh a year ago, Jerry called the defensive line a team strength right before the draft.

The worst smokescreen of all time, we thought, because no one could believe such an exaggerated tall-tale lie. Kiffin and Marinelli chimed in like good foot soldiers, but both had to look at their feet to maintain their poker faces. Baghdad Bob had more credibility.

And then....they drafted not a single one. My God, Jerry actually believed this. A tight end, receiver, and safety later, reality set in.

The "thought" was, a Ware would return like new from the infirmary, Ratliff would resurrect, Spencer would repeat what he'd never done before, and a fat guy would seamlessly be woven in.

Then, football happened.

Come September, some dude named George Selvie was the only good lineman on the team. Ratliff was AWOL as usual, Spencer had a bum knee, and Ware spent a year getting manhandled by backup linemen yet again as his body continued to disintegrate. An assembly line of nightclub bouncers took turns not rushing the passer for the duration.

That alone cost Dallas the playoffs. Again.

And now, that same Achilles heel looms even larger over the prospects for 2014. Spencer can barely walk. The Ratliff illusion has vanished. Ware is about to get cut most likely, and he's done anyway.

Dallas has to build a pass rush around, yep, George Selvie. And no, there is no money to compete for a big name free agent. It's got to happen in the draft and off the scrap heap. Nick Hayden probably returns. Tyrone Crawford has to come back as an impact player. Ben Bass, too, though he breaks when the whistle blows.

That's right. Your starting Cowboys defensive line today is Selvie, Hayden, Bass, and Crawford. Is that still a "team strength", Jerry?

It wouldn't be insane for Dallas to draft seven defensive linemen. That's how bare the cubbard is. We're down to Raman noodles and a questionable bottle of barbeque sauce.

With a strong pass rush, all would be very promising. Without it, another pointless year lies ahead. The Cowboys have to hit on THREE defensive linemen that can play right now, and two have be impact level performers. Nothing less.

Dilly-dallying with the offensive and defensive lines is football blasphemy. Dallas continues to pay the price for exactly that. Careers are being wasted over it.

Now we sit, stew, and wait.

call it the perfect storm. the number of injuries we suffered in one spot, was unprecedented. but losing 3 of your top 5 DL men and having your number 1 defensive lineman injured, is a lot to absorb for any team.

now, bad decisions on the part of Rat, is a separate conversation. but rat was effectivee when he played for us and he never got over his injury. my theory is that he should have been a DE in 3-4 and that would have prolonged his career. playing NT in 3-4 he took a lot of pounding and it showed in the stats year in year out when Rat wasn't as effective late in the season.

not sure what to think about ware. he has been injured and ineffective the second half of each of the past two seasons. but when healthy, he is a force.

losing spencer hurt. Crawford was the backup to be groomed and he got hurt. s

so now we are where we are. personally I think we have no choice but to restructure ware and hope for another couple of year and that's our window of opportunity. I think spencer is going to find it hard to find any deals anywhere to his liking and its not out of the realm, he comes back on an incentive laden deal for another year. we get Crawford back. so I am about 110% sure we will draft a DT. if we can fit hatcher on a friendly deal (and that's 50/50) ,we might be heck of a lot better than what you listed above.

ware-Hatcher-Rookie-Spencer, and we can have the 4 above as backups.

Our problem wasn't just having bouncers as starters. we had bouncers from cheap bars as backups. and they couldn't hold up and play as many snaps. our defense worn down rather easily.

that should help us out of the cellar and into the mid 20's. that's enough improvement

just getting

 

[Nation]

Trade Dez for a 1st rounder and use both first round picks on defensive linemen

 

[ShiningStar]

We have to keep Ware and hope that elbow surgery stops him from losing strength in that arm again.

my god, i hpe his arm strength is up to par has he rushes past another qb. I need that arm strength up, so he can shred the defenders. Umm, wait. Yea, the least of his problems. Dallas not cutting ties with him is my biggest problem.

 

[Zimmy Lives]

They need two d-linemen in the draft and one FA. It's a tall order but Jerry has to make it happen or Dallas will be on the outside looking in again. Oh, and they have to find a way to keep Ware at least for one more year.

 

[Alexander]

call it the perfect storm. the number of injuries we suffered in one spot, was unprecedented. but losing 3 of your top 5 DL men and having your number 1 defensive lineman injured, is a lot to absorb for any team.

Part of that perfect storm is the fact that we were counting on Ratliff to be the focal point of the defensive line.

And let's be real honest here, before the team touted the DL as "set" did anyone honestly think we would not draft at least one switching to a four man line or even get a few after the draft? We pushed away from the table as soon as Kiffin said the meeting room was so full he had to sit on the floor. It was not like we had anything tangible save old college tape to demonstrate any of them would take well to the scheme change.

 

[Idgit]

Not sure it's entirely fair to blame the organization in hindsight for not anticipating the injuries to Crawford and Spencer. Realistically, it might have been a mistake, but there was nothing to be done about the Demarcus Ware contract situation last year, either, even had we wanted to. The Ratliff extension was a really bad idea in the first place, and counting on him to play a role last season was an outright disaster, but if we're being honest, we should be able to see what the team was counting on from his play, still.

The Hatcher backtracking is laughable. He wasn't a surprise, at all, and we were having the same dumb discussions about his level of play last season that we were having about Crawford prior to his injuries. The team has been talking about the quality reps we've gotten from Hatch for the last three years, but people didn't believe it because it didn't come with a sack total, too.

The reality is, there were a whole lot of people dumping on the DL right from the outset last season. Cracking on the quality of the starters and mocking the no-named depth. Other than the usual (and legitimate) criticisms that we had too much money wrapped up in a franchised player, the story line was not about the likelihood of injuries. People were making fun of depth players like Bass and Hayden because they hadn't seen them play and because it was easy to do. In actuality, some depth guys stepped in and played well, and, if you're thinking we should have been even better off when down to our 3rd and 4th options at DT, well, you're just not being all that reasonable.

And, it was always the case that we were going to be going DL heavy this offseason. Hatcher, Spencer, and Ratliff were all very likely goners, and we only had one legitimate young player (in Crawford) who had shown the coaches anything at all coming up through the ranks. It's the reason some of us were hoping Sheldon Richardson might be there for us in the first, and it's, frankly, still really surprising to me that we didn't try to move out of our second pick to get in position to add another DL when we could have. Now, we're thinner than we should be, and going to be depending on getting quality play from rookie players in at least a rotational capacity. Yuck.

 

[Common Sense]

You, Jerry, Steven and who else?

Certainly a lot of fans on this site and most football "experts(?)" and "talking heads" mentioned the facts that there were questions on the DL because:
1. Ware was coming off of an injury-plagued but still relatively productive season in 2012
2. Spencer was coming off of the only really outstanding season during his career
3. Ratliff had not been dominant since 2009

So what actually happened?
1. Ware had a more injury-plagued and less productive season
2. Spencer didn't play at all
3. Ratliff ditto

But Jerry and Stephen (and apparently you too) insisted on regarding hope as a fait accompli instead. That belief that everything will always turn out the best that can be hoped for is one of our front office's greatest failures in the past 19+ years. You don't have to assume that everything will "go to h**l in a hand basket" like 2013 but you certainly don't regard 3 separate "hopes and prayers" as certainties when planning for the future.


Monte Sliger

Seriously. How many people who were versed in the Tampa 4-3 publicly expressed concern over Dallas's personnel being a good fit for the scheme? There were several. The only revisionist history at work is this fairy tale that no one saw it coming.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Part of that perfect storm is the fact that we were counting on Ratliff to be the focal point of the defensive line.

And let's be real honest here, before the team touted the DL as "set" did anyone honestly think we would not draft at least one switching to a four man line or even get a few after the draft? We pushed away from the table as soon as Kiffin said the meeting room was so full he had to sit on the floor. It was not like we had anything tangible save old college tape to demonstrate any of them would take well to the scheme change.

I agree. we should have drafted one. I think despite everything we have seen from Fredrick, and I like him a lot, we should have drafted Floyd. if he was ranked in the top 10 of our draft board and he dropped to us. you take him. we could have traded up in the second round (with lower cost to trade up) and still grabbed Fredrick.

 

[Zimmy Lives]

Not sure it's entirely fair to blame the organization in hindsight for not anticipating the injuries to Crawford and Spencer. Realistically, it might have been a mistake, but there was nothing to be done about the Demarcus Ware contract situation last year, either, even had we wanted to. The Ratliff extension was a really bad idea in the first place, and counting on him to play a role last season was an outright disaster, but if we're being honest, we should be able to see what the team was counting on from his play, still.

The Hatcher backtracking is laughable. He wasn't a surprise, at all, and we were having the same dumb discussions about his level of play last season that we were having about Crawford prior to his injuries. The team has been talking about the quality reps we've gotten from Hatch for the last three years, but people didn't believe it because it didn't come with a sack total, too.

The reality is, there were a whole lot of people dumping on the DL right from the outset last season. Cracking on the quality of the starters and mocking the no-named depth. Other than the usual (and legitimate) criticisms that we had too much money wrapped up in a franchised player, the story line was not about the likelihood of injuries. People were making fun of depth players like Bass and Hayden because they hadn't seen them play and because it was easy to do. In actuality, some depth guys stepped in and played well, and, if you're thinking we should have been even better off when down to our 3rd and 4th options at DT, well, you're just not being all that reasonable.

Actually, the organization is totally to blame for their lack of foresight. I argued after the 2012 season that they needed to get younger on the d-line and they needed to draft players to play the Kiffin defense. My reasons:

1. Ware was often injured in 2012, he was coming off shoulder surgery and he would be playing a new position.
2. Ratliff was coming off a major injury and he was a turd; everyone knew it except the Cowboys staff.
3. Hatcher would be playing a new position and would be counted on to be a rotational guy. His potential at DT was unknown.
4. Spencer would be playing a new position and he was rumored to have issues with his knees.
5. Bass and Crawford showed flashes but were basically unproven.

Granted, one blue-chip d-lineman would not have made a significant difference given the injuries last year but they would be going into 2014 with more ammo. The entire success of the 2014 Cowboys solely rests on how well the Cowboys can build the d-line.

 

[big dog cowboy]

My head aches just thinking about our DL situation. Frankly I don't care diddly about last year just fix it going forward.

 

[Idgit]

Actually, the organization is totally to blame for their lack of foresight. I argued after the 2012 season that they needed to get younger on the d-line and they needed to draft players to play the Kiffin defense. My reasons:

1. Ware was often injured in 2012, he was coming off shoulder surgery and he would be playing a new position.
2. Ratliff was coming off a major injury and he was a turd; everyone knew it except the Cowboys staff.
3. Hatcher would be playing a new position and would be counted on to be a rotational guy. His potential at DT was unknown.
4. Spencer would be playing a new position and he was rumored to have issues with his knees.
5. Bass and Crawford showed flashes but were basically unproven.

Granted, one blue-chip d-lineman would not have made a significant difference given the injuries last year but they would be going into 2014 with more ammo. The entire success of the 2014 Cowboys solely rests on how well the Cowboys can build the d-line.

I can't disagree with that, because I thought the same thing. One more quality player added last year would go a long way right now. Now, when they were planning the DL rotation in terms of slotting players they probably had Brent worked into the equation, but his accident happened in Dec of 2012, so they had the 2013 off season to adjust the plan. I have no idea why they didn't try harder to add another young DL.

I don't recall anybody complaining about Spencer's health beyond the risk of having too much cap wrapped up in him, but I'll take you at your word. It certainly wasn't a consensus opinion. The rest of the concerns about DLs not having played the specific positions before I take with a grain of salt, because that's what happens when you change schemes and don't add personnel and there was no way around that last year.

 

[Alexander]

I agree. we should have drafted one. I think despite everything we have seen from Fredrick, and I like him a lot, we should have drafted Floyd. if he was ranked in the top 10 of our draft board and he dropped to us. you take him. we could have traded up in the second round (with lower cost to trade up) and still grabbed Fredrick.

I do not think Floyd was the end all be all, but you should never enter a draft saying the roster is set and you just do not have room for a player at a position or say that player X does not fit if it has not been discussed thoroughly.

That is basically what we did when Kiffin's input was allowed by Jones to be the deciding factor on why Floyd was passed on when we were on the clock. If everyone was on the same page and our GM had all the right info and the board constructed properly, there is no way he should have been that high.

That is also why McClay has already stated he has to get the coaches to appreciate the work the scouts put in.

It is just the playing field we have to deal with since the GM is incapable of independently judging talent or has even a vague opinion on any of them beyond a cursory glance here or there.

 

[Zimmy Lives]

I can't disagree with that, because I thought the same thing. One more quality player added last year would go a long way right now. Now, when they were planning the DL rotation in terms of slotting players they probably had Brent worked into the equation, but his accident happened in Dec of 2012, so they had the 2013 off season to adjust the plan. I have no idea why they didn't try harder to add another young DL.

I don't recall anybody complaining about Spencer's health beyond the risk of having too much cap wrapped up in him, but I'll take you at your word. It certainly wasn't a consensus opinion. The rest of the concerns about DLs not having played the specific positions before I take with a grain of salt, because that's what happens when you change schemes and don't add personnel and there was no way around that last year.

I may have been the only one barking up that tree. I just remember Jerry prior to OTAs on local radio talking about Spencer and rest and not needing surgery. That was a huge flag for me only because Jerry threw it out there as a concern. Of course, he played the hope card and lost.

If there is one about Jerry that I will always admire, it is his sense of hope. Well, it's either hope or lunacy.

 

[Alexander]

My head aches just thinking about our DL situation. Frankly I don't care diddly about last year just fix it going forward.

I can get on board with this. We just need to learn from last year's mistakes. And that applies to every position group.

We are not "set" anywhere and need an open mind when we construct the board and stick to it.

 

[Idgit]

I do not think Floyd was the end all be all, but you should never enter a draft saying the roster is set and you just do not have room for a player at a position or say that player X does not fit if it has not been discussed thoroughly.

That is basically what we did when Kiffin's input was allowed by Jones to be the deciding factor on why Floyd was passed on when we were on the clock. If everyone was on the same page and our GM had all the right info and the board constructed properly, there is no way he should have been that high.

That is also why McClay has already stated he has to get the coaches to appreciate the work the scouts put in.

It is just the playing field we have to deal with since the GM is incapable of independently judging talent or has even a vague opinion on any of them beyond a cursory glance here or there.

You and I agree here. I can't imagine how we could have gone into that draft without a firm idea what we'd do if Floyd were there. He's one of, what, 18 players who might possibly have dropped to us in that first round, and we were somehow caught by surprise by it. That's crazy.

 

[Alexander]

You and I agree here. I can't imagine how we could have gone into that draft without a firm idea what we'd do if Floyd were there. He's one of, what, 18 players who might possibly have dropped to us in that first round, and we were somehow caught by surprise by it. That's crazy.

I can imagine how it happened. Bad communication.

Our scouts had been working off of a 3-4 mindset for years. Rob Ryan probably would have valued a short armed less than quick twitch DL like Floyd. Kiffin is employed for a couple of months and nobody gets on the same page.

Then our sixth ranked player or whatever he was is staring us in the face. Jerry Jones starts looking around puzzled, waiting for an answer.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

I do not think Floyd was the end all be all, but you should never enter a draft saying the roster is set and you just do not have room for a player at a position or say that player X does not fit if it has not been discussed thoroughly.

That is basically what we did when Kiffin's input was allowed by Jones to be the deciding factor on why Floyd was passed on when we were on the clock. If everyone was on the same page and our GM had all the right info and the board constructed properly, there is no way he should have been that high.

That is also why McClay has already stated he has to get the coaches to appreciate the work the scouts put in.

It is just the playing field we have to deal with since the GM is incapable of independently judging talent or has even a vague opinion on any of them beyond a cursory glance here or there.

I am not sure if he was end all to be all, but you build a draft board and you go to the draft based on your organizations assessment of players. so if a player is a top 10 (in this case he was rated 7), and he is available at 20, then you take him.

if you are wrong and he turns out to be not any good, then its the draftee evaluation process that needs to be fixed.

and I agree, you never go into a draft thinking the roster is set. I am of the mind you take best player available, except for a few cases, in which you make a trade. but our DL wasn't set and oh, btw, everyone on that group was over 30. time to restock.

and I agree, the one common thread is the GM sucks.

 

[Alexander]

and I agree, the one common thread is the GM sucks.

The actual answer is, we do not have a real one. That is why we have things like that happen.

 

[Alexander]

“We think, in our system, we can find nose tackles later in the draft that do a good job.” - Stephen Jones

 

[Alexander]

http://instagram.com/p/kZztbUyWES/#

Marinelli is apparently campaigning for Hatcher to stick around.