We are raising a generation of deluded narcissists

[TheDude]

That was brief? :laugh2:

:laugh2:

I know huh. Guess the Nyquil dose was too low

 

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Don't confuse working longer hours and taking work home with working hard. Many people get their work done at work.

Americans also take less vacation than most other countries as well. I don't think that is healthy. I remember being in Disneyland when some Dbag was proudly telling his friends that he only responded to five work emails that morning as he is on vacation. My thought was, mmmm, how about not responding to any?

Europeans are healthier physically and usually mentally than North Americans. They also get more vacation time. Coincidence, who knows. I know this much, I need my six weeks a year or else I face burnout.

 

[Galian Beast]

Thanks for the response. Laid up with the flu, so i am going to be brief



No arguments that productivity is up and the US remains a leader. I assume you are looking at GDP PPP (per person employed). What is/has happened is that processes and technology has allowed people to be more productive and as people are laid-off retire, many entities are leaning on other employees to pick up the slack as well as their own job. Working in large companies,I see it first hand first hand. Sometimes, job duties that dont add real value can be eliminated. I just lost 1 worker for me in June that i am not backfilling because another employee was able to automate some work and some duties really weren't value added to justify another headcount. Ive had to implement business intelligent systems and the shear amount of man hours it saved by eliminating multi department daily entry was astounding.



whoa. Ok , I was using a USC study on spending PER PUPIL. This blog is refuting a Bob Scheafer report based (I think) on a OECD report on PER CAPITA. This off the bat is apple to oranges. So I am not sure if you are insinuating I am using confirmation bias, but refuting one report with a blog from refuting another report is interesting.

Here is another study illustrating only investment in primary and secondary PUBLIC education per student
http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66

I hope you are not using dailykos.com as an objective source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Kos
That would seem be more of a confirmation bias than a University supported by nces.gov.ed study (maybe).

The issue is that test scores are not keeping up with other parts of the world, Are you denying that? If you are, then I would like to see that study, because that has not popped up in any of my research. Then the question is - is money 100% correlated with scores or are there other issues? If investment is 20% under the top country per pupil, fine. Can we be assured that test scores would jump to top 3? If not, the arguement cant continue to move the goal posts.

likely all studies can have holes poked in them. i do stats for a living and fully understand that just because 2 things are correlated tell you nothing as to whether or not the correlation is statistically significant. For that you need to run multiple regression or principal component analysis. Since most dont have the spare time to collect all data, nor the skill to do that, you have to look for similar themes, big picture and real world example


http://taxfoundation.org/article/state-gasoline-tax-rates-january-1-2012

Love this because it is my pet peeve. California has a 48.6 cent/gal tax (2nd highest) to 21.4 c/g for TN. The extra for california had been earmarked for infrastructure maintenance in Gray Davis and Scwarzeneggar terms. However, that was usurped and now it goes to the general fund to fund the public pension disaster.

i'll give you one article, but you can google search and if you find one that lauds the shape of California surface streets - please forward.
http://www.businessinsider.com/worst-state-road-systems-2010-7?op=1

Personal Evidence - I have had two flat tires and 3 alignments in 2 years simply from hitting put holes. That has never happened to me before in my life. This was between Beverly Hills and the 405 and on Ventura Blvd between Calabasas and Encino, not exactly "bad areas"

Property taxes are relative. california actually has a little lower property tax rate rate than TN, but the fact that housing is 3-4x as much more than makes up for it.



What is your point?, are we going to talk scores? I never made a comparison between Tenn and Mass. Are you making the a correlation that school performance is 100% correlated with tax/money spent? If it were that easy, then the problem would be easily solved. There are many other factors that people dont wish to factor in - geographic, socio-economic, demographic, etc.

I am not going to defend Tennessee education. But to ignore that Massachusetts has one of the highest income per pupil in the country - if not the highest - is likely missing a large component. Highly educated and successful households provide advantages and place priorities on children to do well in school.




Didn't really get this, wasn't directed at me so don't feel well enough to decipher

In closing, in case you think I am just some right-wing capitalism shill - you are dead wrong. I have no issue in paying taxes if it is going to provide tangible benefit or maintenance. Not for the wars either.



In fact, though it is a G--D--- tragedy, I will likely vote to increase property taxes to fix the roads here. It is for my good, the greater good, and to eliminate blight

What I can't stand is to be told "this tax will fix it - you'll see." Then 2 years later back to the well to grab more money to fix the problem. It is a institutional scam especially here. They keep increasing utility rates due to repair and modernization and costs, yet for last 5 years, the Utility districts have provided dividends/surplus back to local and state governments as a ruse to close budget shortfalls. If/when the economy picks up, do you think those rates will revert back down? LOL.

of the people I know, I follow my tax dollars fairly closely. Most people don't and incrementally you are giving more and more for less and less - with no ability to change it. If Time Warner screwed you over, you can go to Directv, etc. People have no interest in holding governments accountable. Or they are single issue voters. When the rishest zipcodes are congregated around Washington DC, you know people are making money off of public money and not producing anything of real value.

The very nature of technology means replacing man made labor. And with that replacement there has to be a shift in different sectors of production. This country has not done a great job in making that shift compared to countries around the world. And as a result we see our economy struggle.

My point on education as the blog article suggests is that you need to look at expenditures in education, not simply per capita or per pupil basis. You draw the conclusion that we shouldn't pay teachers so much, based on this argument, and if you looked at average teacher pay compared to other OECD countries, you would see that it was significantly less.

You also made a complete assumption as to where I was going with my argument in an attempts to create a straw man.

I think the problem is in regards to where and how we spend. I believe that we have to make teaching a more highly sought after profession in this country, and also make becoming a teacher more difficult. Not difficult in terms of expense, but rather more training, education, and criteria. That being said we should be investing in programs that allow more and better teachers to more easily come to the profession.

How much road does California have to maintain vs the roads in Tennessee. You want to talk about apples and oranges yet you want to completely ignore the different realities both states face.

My point is in terms of education or any government funded organizations, it's not just how much you spend, but how you spend and how you put an emphasis on education.

Massachusetts has done a good job in investing in teachers over the years, and the investment has paid dividends. That being said there are still areas where there are poorer resources available where the education is not at all good. It's difficult to get good teachers to stay in these areas, and with nclb, many of these schools are ironically left behind.

Why is Massachusetts so high in income per pupil? Could it be related to the investments we make in maintaining our economy? Yet it's funny when we are referred to as taxachusetts. Wouldn't our higher taxes drive down economic growth?

In closing I do agree with you, I don't like to see waste, fraud, and abuse. We could have a whole conversation on corporate contracts that are siphening tax money.

 

[ShiningStar]

Don't confuse working longer hours and taking work home with working hard. Many people get their work done at work.

Americans also take less vacation than most other countries as well. I don't think that is healthy. I remember being in Disneyland when some Dbag was proudly telling his friends that he only responded to five work emails that morning as he is on vacation. My thought was, mmmm, how about not responding to any?

Europeans are healthier physically and usually mentally than North Americans. They also get more vacation time. Coincidence, who knows. I know this much, I need my six weeks a year or else I face burnout.

because if theres one goal i have in life, its to live like a european. Not on my to do list. i dont vacation much period. and id rather take care of things at home instead of worrying about my "six weeks a year" if it works for you great, but it doesnt make you physically or mentally better. it just makes you you. and thats the difference.

frankily you want phyically and mentally better, go see the amish, after they are doing building something for you, they'll show you how mentally in shape they are too. do i want to live like them, no, so its not the goals of many americans to be like our counter parts.

 

[ShiningStar]

The very nature of technology means replacing man made labor. And with that replacement there has to be a shift in different sectors of production. This country has not done a great job in making that shift compared to countries around the world. And as a result we see our economy struggle.

My point on education as the blog article suggests is that you need to look at expenditures in education, not simply per capita or per pupil basis. You draw the conclusion that we shouldn't pay teachers so much, based on this argument, and if you looked at average teacher pay compared to other OECD countries, you would see that it was significantly less.

You also made a complete assumption as to where I was going with my argument in an attempts to create a straw man.

I think the problem is in regards to where and how we spend. I believe that we have to make teaching a more highly sought after profession in this country, and also make becoming a teacher more difficult. Not difficult in terms of expense, but rather more training, education, and criteria. That being said we should be investing in programs that allow more and better teachers to more easily come to the profession.

How much road does California have to maintain vs the roads in Tennessee. You want to talk about apples and oranges yet you want to completely ignore the different realities both states face.

My point is in terms of education or any government funded organizations, it's not just how much you spend, but how you spend and how you put an emphasis on education.

Massachusetts has done a good job in investing in teachers over the years, and the investment has paid dividends. That being said there are still areas where there are poorer resources available where the education is not at all good. It's difficult to get good teachers to stay in these areas, and with nclb, many of these schools are ironically left behind.

Why is Massachusetts so high in income per pupil? Could it be related to the investments we make in maintaining our economy? Yet it's funny when we are referred to as taxachusetts. Wouldn't our higher taxes drive down economic growth?

In closing I do agree with you, I don't like to see waste, fraud, and abuse. We could have a whole conversation on corporate contracts that are siphening tax money.

we can also look at towns with contracts that are siphoning resources from our towns and cities.

its not always corporate thats evil.

 

[TheDude]

The very nature of technology means replacing man made labor. And with that replacement there has to be a shift in different sectors of production. This country has not done a great job in making that shift compared to countries around the world. And as a result we see our economy struggle.

Agreed, and the world is more open and transportation is better and there is labor arbitrage. There's also currency value and arbitrage there, declining birth rates, etc. There is an equilibrium that will bring developing countires up and developed ones down over time.

My point on education as the blog article suggests is that you need to look at expenditures in education, not simply per capita or per pupil basis. You draw the conclusion that we shouldn't pay teachers so much, based on this argument, and if you looked at average teacher pay compared to other OECD countries, you would see that it was significantly less.

I never made an assumption on how much we should pay teachers, if I did please point it out. What I am saying is that they WAY we spend it IS NOT not working and yielding results that provide students ready for the work force

You also made a complete assumption as to where I was going with my argument in an attempts to create a straw man.

Nope

I think the problem is in regards to where and how we spend. I believe that we have to make teaching a more highly sought after profession in this country, and also make becoming a teacher more difficult. Not difficult in terms of expense, but rather more training, education, and criteria. That being said we should be investing in programs that allow more and better teachers to more easily come to the profession.

Have NO issue there. But all education needs to be enforced with more emphasis at home. This is not nearly universal enough

How much road does California have to maintain vs the roads in Tennessee. You want to talk about apples and oranges yet you want to completely ignore the different realities both states face.

Can you come back with numbers other than trying to build the strawman?

Get back to me after you realize how much each gets in terms fed spending, "earmarked" funding, etc. Suffice it to say that there is money available to fix potholes.

My point is in terms of education or any government funded organizations, it's not just how much you spend, but how you spend and how you put an emphasis on education.

Massachusetts has done a good job in investing in teachers over the years, and the investment has paid dividends. That being said there are still areas where there are poorer resources available where the education is not at all good. It's difficult to get good teachers to stay in these areas, and with nclb, many of these schools are ironically left behind.

agreed, emphasis has top be cultural - home and community - not just teachers.

Why is Massachusetts so high in income per pupil? Could it be related to the investments we make in maintaining our economy? Yet it's funny when we are referred to as taxachusetts. Wouldn't our higher taxes drive down economic growth?

Mass income per pupil is so high because there economy is relatively stable and a large part is built on human capital bolstered by exclusive higher education universities and technology. There are recession proof industries and healthcare, education and government have historically been at the top.

I haven't really followed Massachusetts because I haven't lived there, but unemployment seems to be going in the opposite direction than california and TN
http://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.ma.htm,

Knoxville Tennessee was not hit hard by the recession because much of the economy was derived from the university of Tennessee and DOD (federal) facilities.

plus it looks like Mass is the least diverse of Mass, TN and California...which shocked me compared to TN.
http://www.infoplease.com/us/census/data/massachusetts/demographic.html

That does cause issues. There are many more kids who can't speak English in 1st grade in California than in Mass and TN. The point, money alone will not solve the education problem. With deficits as they are, blindly calling for money without thinking out of the box is a losing proposition.

In closing I do agree with you, I don't like to see waste, fraud, and abuse. We could have a whole conversation on corporate contracts that are siphening tax money.

Corporations are not be angels, but the fact that governments operate without any checks or interest from the public can allow things like this to happen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Bell_scandal

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...-shows-california-leads-u-s-pay-giveaway.html

Do you think that last article is warranted for public employee unions to negotiate those benefits?

All of that money is being siphoned from roads, etc. My overarching point is that money is most easily hidden in government, education and healthcare - 3 areas that the consumer does not invest time to see if it is not being wasted; moreover it has become a complacency and deemed acceptable because "thats the way it is".

If people thought the 2008-9 Crisis was bad, wait until US Treasury interest rate goes up and the interest payments rival Social Security payments. That was just a small shift in global equilibrium, that will be 10.0 magnitude quake

 

[Galian Beast]

McLovin, please see that you're not the only person I was discussing things with... talk about narcissism.

 

[TheDude]

McLovin, please see that you're not the only person I was discussing things with... talk about narcissism.

So sorry, when I post something and someone hits the "quote" button on my post and uses the pronoun "you" in their response addressing my points, I would have thought it was directed at me. But granted that is my Tennessee education not an elite Ivy school one.

But resulting to name calling at least gave me comfort in that I knew it would be coming.

Its post #183 if you need a refresher.

 

[TwoCentPlain]

I nominate this thread for one of the weirdest of the year. Strange answers and even stranger tangents.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

What ScipioCowboy doesn't understand is that if people are not buying goods and services, how can one get rich? And then how can the economy grow?

The economy can't grow if people aren't trading goods and services. I never suggested otherwise. We were discussing how wealth was created.

He suggests consumers spend more for marginally better products that are significantly more expensive... yet that goes against the very model of market demand.

People buy things in the next bracket? I think you're full of yourself. Apparently people who are lower income quite simply shouldn't have nice things. They should live in shoe boxes and wear potato sacks.

I suggested no such thing. Thanks for the playing, though.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Very interesting thread...

I think there isn't one answer but many on why a later generation acts differently or has different values than a previous generation.

But one thing that wasn't brought up (at least I don't think I saw it) was the presence of a historical "reset" button to radically change the values or collective personality of an entire generation.

For example the American Civil War was a historical "reset" button that greatly affected at least one generation.

More recent "reset" buttons were the Great Depression of the 1930's and World War II.

Those that went through the depression (especially adults) became very careful about money and leery that the next great depression could be right around the corner.

Then you had the slightly younger folks who went to war and were (provided they survived) elated about life in general and wanted everything that life could offer.

We haven't experienced a "reset" since WW2... Not in the scale of the Great Depression or the last world war. Consequently we're seeing new generations taking the same attitudes as the previous 2-3 generations and practicing them even more aggressively.

At some point another "reset" will occur and from that there will most likely be a generational "shift" in thinking, personality and overall values... It may come in the form of a massive war or some economic tragedy like the financial default of the government.

 

[Galian Beast]

So sorry, when I post something and someone hits the "quote" button on my post and uses the pronoun "you" in their response addressing my points, I would have thought it was directed at me. But granted that is my Tennessee education not an elite Ivy school one.

But resulting to name calling at least gave me comfort in that I knew it would be coming.

Its post #183 if you need a refresher.

The response before that should have clued you in. Just a refresher.

 

[Galian Beast]

The economy can't grow if people aren't trading goods and services. I never suggested otherwise. We were discussing how wealth was created.

I suggested no such thing. Thanks for the playing, though.

I'd suggest re-reading your statements, friend.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

I'd suggest re-reading your statements, friend.

I did, and nothing changed. We were still discussing the virtues of saving and investment.

 

[TheDude]

The response before that should have clued you in. Just a refresher.

You mean post #178 when you said:

Here is a response to McLovin's claims on education for instance.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1...ation-Spending

And the dangers of using poorly constructed data. And then continuing to use that to paint a larger picture of an overarching problem.

He continues to talk about the difference between income tax/sales tax of Tennessee where he grew up and california where he lives. Does he specify how much of California's state income tax and sales tax go towards maintenance of roads and infrastructure. Or the reality that it's often things like gas tax that go towards maintaining roads and infrastructure as well as local property taxes.

How does Tennessee rank in terms of education compared to say, my state of Massachusetts?

Must have been the other McLovin.

Looking back in this thread, you keep chiding people to back up claims with data, well I have. You have yet to present any data or study other than a feeble attempt to discredit one study using a progressive blog site that was impuning a different study using different factors.

I've tried being respectful, but you are way to invested in your position. If you want the last word you can have it. You behaving like pretty immaturely to be 27. There are some people that can make cogent points that differ from you. You don't have to buy it, but talking down is no way to convert someone

 

[ShiningStar]

Very interesting thread...

I think there isn't one answer but many on why a later generation acts differently or has different values than a previous generation.

But one thing that wasn't brought up (at least I don't think I saw it) was the presence of a historical "reset" button to radically change the values or collective personality of an entire generation.

For example the American Civil War was a historical "reset" button that greatly affected at least one generation.

More recent "reset" buttons were the Great Depression of the 1930's and World War II.

Those that went through the depression (especially adults) became very careful about money and leery that the next great depression could be right around the corner.

Then you had the slightly younger folks who went to war and were (provided they survived) elated about life in general and wanted everything that life could offer.

We haven't experienced a "reset" since WW2... Not in the scale of the Great Depression or the last world war. Consequently we're seeing new generations taking the same attitudes as the previous 2-3 generations and practicing them even more aggressively.

At some point another "reset" will occur and from that there will most likely be a generational "shift" in thinking, personality and overall values... It may come in the form of a massive war or some economic tragedy like the financial default of the government.

very thoughtful post and read, kudos, i enjoyed it.

 

[Galian Beast]

You mean post #178 when you said:


Must have been the other McLovin.

Looking back in this thread, you keep chiding people to back up claims with data, well I have. You have yet to present any data or study other than a feeble attempt to discredit one study using a progressive blog site that was impuning a different study using different factors.

I've tried being respectful, but you are way to invested in your position. If you want the last word you can have it. You behaving like pretty immaturely to be 27. There are some people that can make cogent points that differ from you. You don't have to buy it, but talking down is no way to convert someone

please see post 186

also as for as backing up my claims, hows this for a diagnosis of your behaviors

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

In social psychology, the fundamental attribution error (also known as correspondence bias or attribution effect) describes the tendency to over-value dispositional or personality-based explanations for the observed behaviors of others while under-valuing situational explanations for those behaviors. The fundamental attribution error is most visible when people explain the behavior of others. It does not explain interpretations of one's own behavior—where situational factors are often taken into consideration. This discrepancy is called the actor–observer bias.

As a simple example, consider a situation where a driver, Alice, is about to pass through an intersection. Her light turns green, and so she begins moving forward when an ambulance blows through the red-light with sirens blaring and lights flashing, and cuts her off. Despite knowing that there is a good reason for the driver's behavior, she is likely to form a negative opinion of the driver, e.g. "what an inconsiderate driver!".